China Violates Border .. Again...
- Thread starter Spacescreamer
- Start date
blr_p said:
That's cos if India accepts that Arunachali people don't need visas to enter China, they'll almost be accepting that we are Chinese. I'm sure if the courtesy of no visas required were extended to all Indians, it wouldn't be an issue for India at all. I expected that to be clear to anyone :no:.
blr_p said:
Duh! My point was they don't even have to bomb our roads! And given equal warning to both parties, wouldn't better roads give the advantage of faster mobilisations?
blr_p said:
Your links read that India is planning to upgrade roads etc. while China has already done major upgrades. They also mention that there have been no major troop build ups yet. You didn't need to post links to confirm what I'd said :bleh:
blr_p said:China is potentially more encircled than we think
Obviously you haven't noticed the difference between China circa 62 and now. I doubt any country would be able to pressurise China given that they hold the keys to the US' economy.
blr_p said:
Where :S ? One of the flimsy claims on Tawang is based on the fact that one of the Dalai Lamas was born here, hence it is under Tibet and since Tibet is a part of..blah-blah. Is there any part of present India where the Chinese ever had a major presence? I think not (not 100% sure, I'm open to corrections)
What I can't understand is why is someone justifying or is ok with China's incursions and happy/ comfortable with the laxity in our border security/ poor infrastructure? War is not the right solution but neither is cowardice in the garb of diplomacy/ misplaced faith in others. In our society, the boundaries of home and hearth are fiercely guarded. Trespassing into other's spaces is deeply frowned upon. I presume you would be pissed off too if some one trespasses your property regularly even after repeatedly being asked not to do so. I don't see any reason why it shouldn't be the same with the country's territory. In an ideal world there would be no boundaries, but as long as it's not...
I'm a little off with my history but wasn't Nehru and most of the other Indian think tanks sure that China would never attack India? I just have this feeling that if India had a much more formidable defense capability and more assertive policies, we would never have seen the 62 war or the other wars we have had with Pakistan. Moot point actually as I'll never know the answer...
spindoctor
Level D
chiron said:
yep. that's why this discussion is so pointless.
someone suggested taking a no tolerance policy... that's laughable. what exactly does a no tolerance policy mean? picking a fight you cannot win? :rofl:
Techie#1
Disciple
^^ India cant Win against China..so they will always give the comfort zone for chinese intrusion or anything of their fancy a 1000times over.India is shamelessly Softy..& it boils the Blood of any True Indian who thinks him/her as a patriot...No good discussing a phail issue which cant be sorted out with such gutless Indian Govt at power!!! ..move over or even try accepting being or learning chinese for the future! 
I've read all the posts but a few people are saying the Indian Govt. is spineless, no guts etc. I'd like to ask these people, how would you tackle these incursions? Would you want the government to declare an all-out-war on the chinese? Have any of you thought of the things we as individual have to give up if a country goes to war? Its always comfortable to sit in cushy chairs/ AC offices to talk about valour/bravery/guts. How many of you have actually are willing to give up your present lives to win a war for the country?
It would be just like the stupid American foreign policy where they start a war without thinking ahead. Nobody wants wat at this point in time. The country is focussing more on economic/education reforms that these incursions which in my opinion is good.
I think its a bit of an over-reaction when somebody says the govt is spineless or the Indian military is not good enough.
Peace.
It would be just like the stupid American foreign policy where they start a war without thinking ahead. Nobody wants wat at this point in time. The country is focussing more on economic/education reforms that these incursions which in my opinion is good.
I think its a bit of an over-reaction when somebody says the govt is spineless or the Indian military is not good enough.
Peace.
blr_p
Level M
Naga said:
Sure, just pointing out that i'd never heard of such a thing before. Thx for mentioning it.
There is no legal way for you to take a vacation in Shangai. ALL of China is off bounds, unless you could somehow show your residence is elsewhere than AP.
Naga said:
Upto a point, but the airforce as well as missiles would neutralise that advantage over time. Had it been flat terrain like the western border then your point applies. Your frame of reference is 62, where the Chinese had 80k+ vs our 15k troops, where our airforce was prevented from getting into the theater and no missiles existed. All those remote sensing satelites we put up should give a very good idea of where the major choke points are on the chinese side and its easy to create a landslide to block them isn't it
This is not to say that roads should not be developed on our side, they are important in terms of the local economy, their utility is far larger in peace time than in war, given the terrain.
Naga said:
Yes but the link also says 2 more divisions will arrive, how long does it take ?
Granted i've no way to know how serious your governor's promise is, what grounds do you have to doubt it ?
Have they been promising the same in the past but nothing was delivered.
Naga said:
Trade is a barrier or deterrent to war ? it's not. Countries that have traded with each other have gone to war in the past. Only thing that prevents war is to make it not worth the trouble by having a credible deterrence policy in military terms.
China holds the keys to the US economy and US holds China's balls. This is why their premier says he is nervous about the dollar, he cant do anything about it or he would not have needed to say anything.
Naga said:
All of Arunachal is belong to us
Its only in the last twenty years or so where the Chinese have started to seriously contest AP, earlier they pretty much kept quiet.
Naga said:
What about the monastery tho and its links with Lhasa ?
This is a grey area, to my knowledge there is no part of India that China has a major presence in unless you include territory ceded in 62. We have yet to acknowledge Aksai China as Chinese. In 2003, we accepted Tibet as part of China in exchange of the same for Sikkim. We currently will let go of Aksai Chin for AP but the Chinese have not agreed to it as yet. 13 meetings later and still nothing.
The issue is the Brits annexed areas that belonged to Tibet and added them on to India. So the claims are flimsy on both sides and the Brits recently washed their hands of this affair. The reality is we wont move out and if forced will push back. This disputed territory is the line of actual control and remains as is.
Naga said:
I dont think anyone is justifying it. Of course you're right which leads to....
vij said:
..to which the Chinese say : what will you do about it ?
Unless we have a presence to begin with, there can be no taking a tough stance in the first place. My understanding is they are in the process of augmenting this presence. Once thats done then the leaders can shout out how upset they are with the whole thing as they have something credible to back it up with.
Naga said:
The wiki article you linked to gives a very broad outline of the series of events that happened in 62. Neville Maxwell & Brig John Dalvi's book go more into the causes of it. It's funny you mentioned our uniforms were not very good today because that's one of the points Dalvi also makes in '62. We lost that war because our boys were fighting two enemies, one in front of them and the other in Delhi
Nehru thought they would not attack because he was influcened by the IB director of the time Mullik who in turn was influenced by the CIA director in Delhi. The conspiracy hinted at is Nehru wanted a strong Asian Axis, whilst the US did not want a socialist India linking up with Communist China. This was the paranoid 50s where anything red was evil.
I'm not sure its possible to prove this either way and doubt the recently declassifed CIA documents (see under POLO) about the subject will shed any light on it. All they will do is show where our govt. lied to us and covered it up.
The biggest inconsistancy was Nehru adopted an expansionist policy and assumed the Chinese would not retaliate. The Chinese were hearing hindi-chini bhai bhai and at the same time seeing forward posts being established and then allowing the Tibetan leader sanctuary, something had to give sooner or later. This was a war we helped to start and then fumbled royally
l33t_5n1p3r_max
Disciple
Link - Ó¡¶ÈÕ½»úÈëÇÖÖùú±»ºìÆì12Ëø¶¨ µô÷¾ÃÌÓ´Ü-þüÊÂÃø
Rough translation but when you have MKI's flying over Chengdu (where CAC is based) and Lanzhou, another FOB you can hardly cry over a small heli incursion in Aksai Chin : )
Need more proof?
Thats a pic of the MKI's located at Tezpur AFS. Look at the one at the back, the one with the red thing covering what would look to a random person as a "missile" or "bomb".
That my friend is one of these - IAI ELM-2060
The ELM 2060 recon pod.
The Chinese might be clever and sneaky, but given a free reign the Indian armed forces can match them at every single step. Just fix the babus.
blr_p
Level M
AbhijithS said:
You raise a pertinent point.
We have what must be a 2-3k mile long border with China. News report shows some 270(!) incusions over the last year.
Thats a long border and its very easy to stray over any part of it unless we build yet another fence. Are we supposed to station troops all along this border ?
How much does it cost for what return ?
So this is the pattern
1.Media reports on a tiny fraction of these incursions.
2. gets posted here
3. posts saying we are not doing enough or politicans are too lame etc
Is not doing much the cheapest & right answer ?..i'm sure there is a list of red lines where we will act in other cases just ignore.
We can shout all we want and they will prolly do it more to make us look bad. So maybe its the smart thing not to get needlessly emotionaly baited.
l33t_5n1p3r_max said:
Read Google's translation here hilarious
Is this story fabricated or what ?..curious how it appears just after the news that the 4-SU's were recently sent to Assam hmmm....The date shows eary July of this year.
How is it possible to go so deep and return without China seeing anything ?
Spacescreamer
Level H
why will china bother to take over pakistan ..
they ll have to fund them for everything that USA aint.
they ll have to fund them for everything that USA aint.
blr_p said:
A very senior member of our state University did just that. All the local papers were agog with the news of him getting a visa for China. The person had given false information regarding his address (neighbouring Assam) and got f***ed royally when the information leaked out. The kicker? He went to the press himself to declare he was granted a Visa to visit China when all others were not :rofl:!
On the rest of your posts, I see that we tend to disagree on the minutest of points
hyeah:!That aside, I do believe the Govt. should at least issue stern statements against such incursions. It does hurt that Pakistan, Bangladesh and China think so less of us :no:! For instance, the episode in Sikkim. As per press reports and Govt. releases, a Chinese patrol had intruded into our territory and arrested some of our security personnel on patrol duty! In fact the Govt. had commended the people arrested in avoiding a diplomatic flashpoint by not retaliating! But isn't that why we have border patrols? To stop others from transgressing??
Why should the famed Indian policy of "chalta hai" extend to our defense policies? In my personal experience, the cool headed guys are always heckled more than hot headed ones. The same thing can be seen in the world's policies. Prime example Pakistan. Despite every nation acknowledging that Pakistan is a hot bed/ training ground for terrorists, they almost always jump on India to forgive and forget.
China almost always blocks us in international foras but we bend backwards to accommodate them (for eg, the Tibetan protests during the Olympics). Where's the quid pro quo?
And this is for the "ahem" true patriots who are jumping to the support of our rulers and defenders. A true citizen should always question his Govt. And, yes, war is hell. But soldiers are not called soldiers for their ceremonial parades. The Indian military establishment is not as clean as they're made out to be either. Human rights abuses inside the country, authorised to kill without fear of judicial review (Armed Forces Special Powers Act), large scale pilfering of fuel and CSD items, millionaire retired officials, "ketchup killings" etc. But they obviously can't fire at Chinese intruders. That would be so wrong... Kill that Indian under protection of Indian laws instead. We have to keep our sovereign integrity after all.
l33t_5n1p3r_max
Disciple
True, but when push comes to shove, they'll be standing there at the borders protecting you while youll be standing outside the American embassy begging for a visa.
Given the types they're dealing with, the armed forces have performed remarkably well and the levels of corruption are ten times lesser than those in the civillian sectors...
Because for whatever the PLA military brochure shows you, their armed forces are ill trained and have negligible combat experience. During a recent airborne exercises with the Russians a bunch of PLA soldiers died cause their officers passed over wrong co-ordinates to their artillery.
The PLAAF is rumored to give its top pilots, the ones on MKK's and J-10's around 120 hours a year compared to the standard 280-300 for IAF pilots (~250 for fishbed pilots). The PLAN has never conducted an operational patrol of ANY of its nuclear submarines...the Han class haven't sailed out of Qingdao and their patrols generally consist of a few hundred nautical miles (almost like an inch for a boomer).
The PLA has some very sound pieces of equipment though, we cannot match with them in terms of Artillery or Cruise missiles. The numbers in the NE theatre would probably be slightly similar with the IA having the advantage of troop training since its crack Mountain divisions that are based in the NE as opposed to regular troops of the PLA in the Tibetan autonomous region.
And with respect to the much hated "string of pearls" strategy the Chinese are said to have...well, they have an equal number of powerful "neutral" powers surrounding them. Japan, Vietnam, SoKo all are not bosom buddies with the chicom.
blr_p
Level M
Naga said:
Hehe, one way to lessen the blow.
Naga said:On the rest of your posts, I see that we tend to disagree on the minutest of points
Devil is always in the details
Naga said:
Ok, lets say we do it and publically. Do you expect the Chinese will comply ?
What happens if they don't and continue as usual.
Naga said:
Well, we did let the Paks know how we felt after 26/11. does that count ?
Many here thought it was inadequate but stil more thought the alternatives were all much more costly so that means govt. got it right as per public opinion. Clearly, prevention is better than the cure in this case.
Compare 26/11 with these incursions, that the public never sees and guage what the public response would be ?
Now about China. Is this really what Chinese think about us or what the ruling regime wants them to think ?
In terms of public enemy in China, Japs top the list followed closely by the Vietnamese. We are not even in the list. So when we ask what does China think of us, i think we have to limit it to only what the ruling party thinks. This could apply to a large extent in the other countries as well. You saw what happened to Jaswant when he tried to reach out, all he got was booted out of his party. For a Pak of Bangla to do it might entail murder. These countries are not exactly stable so being able to blame india for internal problems that they themselves cause must be a real lifesaver for those in charge.
Naga said:
I was curious when this incident happened and found it !!!
It was in Arunachal not Sikkim.
So we DO have an established protocol to deal with these events, in addition there are annual Border Personnel Meets between the two parties. And its fair game for both to intrude over the others territory, given the "different perceptions" along the border
Naga said:
I think China is playing mind games with us. Who blinks first loses. In this instance, would it be smart to jump in at a time & place of their choosing ?
They can't evict us from Arunachal and if they tried they'd be the first to get slammed on the intl. scene for being the aggressors. Then we'd have the world behind us to answer them back. Could come in handy if it got messy. Till such time we continue our shopping spree in the arms market without getting into an arms race with them
l33t_5n1p3r_max said:
Check out the responses here.
Our ppl don't agree and the Chinese members mention no activity about the subject on any of their main sites. Which is odd, don't you think for a country that keeps tight tabs on its citizens. Surely, any stunt like this would have had them breathing down our necks.
Further googling on the URL turned up this comment
The site you got that link off is a blog
l33t_5n1p3r_max
Disciple
The blog quotes JDW. A very reliable authority on defence matters. I don't have a jdw subscription so I obviously can't verify.
blr_p
Level M
I think thats a fake mention as no one anywhere credible is talking about it. This is one of the first things you check for when something like this comes out.
The arguments brought up in that thread i linked too are valid, there are better ways to recon China then to send in a cpl of jets and risk a major diplomatic spat.
The arguments brought up in that thread i linked too are valid, there are better ways to recon China then to send in a cpl of jets and risk a major diplomatic spat.
l33t_5n1p3r_max
Disciple
Sure there are, SAR satellites can do the job almost as well. But when people are ready to believe a PLA chopper flew in and dropped food packets, why not believe this?