China Violates Border .. Again...

[spindoctor]

Yes I know they can't win. Can you tell me how you feel the Chicoms can win the war?

can you tell me how you feel they won't? the country that is on the verge of becoming the strongest superpower in the world can't beat us? without looking up any numbers, i'm fairly sure they are richer, they have larger armies, more nukes, more and better weapons, better training, better tech and generally more influence worldwide.

Because given a choice, even I would want to make a new country out of my home. Just think of the naxalites..VHP would want a hindu state, Kerala would want a christian state, Tamil eelam, Communist eastern belt, UP Bihar would want to merge into Mumbai.

If we start holding referendums every week there wont be a country left.

so what you're saying is, you know better than the kashmiri people about what is good for them?

basically, india is scared of holding a referendum in kashmir because they know that it will secede to pakistan or a new country? so, while suppressing the wishes of the kashmiri people, what on earth gives us any right to claim moral superiority over the separatists?

and keep a check on the hyperbole. holding 'referendums every week' is an extremely stupid thing to say. kashmir is one of the most dangerous nuclear flashpoints on the planet today, and has been a problem for over half a century. it's not just any other territorial dispute. by not allowing the kashmiris to decide for themselves, you are actually giving merit to the pakistani argument that india oppresses it's people.

Talks mean sh1t when the other dude construes them as a sign of weakness. How do you think the Chinese entered 1962, by talks and negotiations? You protect your own land by being agressive, not by being Manmohan Singh.

you keep saying 'be agressive', but i'd really like to know what you mean by that. but more importantly, what i really want to know is what you think are the next few steps when china gets serious about it if we get our armed forces to start fighting on the border and then they bring in their armed forces. man am i glad that people like you have nothing to do with making foreign policy.

 

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can you tell me how you feel they won't? the country that is on the verge of becoming the strongest superpower in the world can't beat us? without looking up any numbers, i'm fairly sure they are richer, they have larger armies, more nukes, better weapons, more weapons, better tech and generally more influence worldwide.

First we need to agree on WHAT constitutes a 'win' here

 

[spindoctor]

We have already tried war, near war & negotiations. This does not mean we stop, it has to continue, the diplomatic offensive is the best bet here.

we got the crap kicked out of us in the last war, and there is nothing to suggest that it won't happen again. it's a sad state of affairs but status quo seems to be the only viable and realistic option in these kinds of problems in the world. like you said earlier, an uneasy peace is still better than a bloody war.

 

[spindoctor]

First we need to agree on WHAT constitutes a 'win' here

that's a good point you raise. wars have undergone a metamorphosis in recent times... no one loses or wins a war anymore. no one surrenders. even today there are countries who are officially at war with each other, although there has been no real fighting for years and, like i mentioned in the post above, status quo is the acceptable solution.

in this particular case though, i would imagine that if AP or any other territory was in contention, china would emerge as the ones who controlled it at the end. and even though we might be able to inflict damage on them, what they would do to us would be much worse. and who knows what would happen if the conflict went nuclear, except i'm pretty sure that history would remember it as the start of world war 3.

 

[l33t_5n1p3r_max]

without looking up any numbers, i'm fairly sure they are richer, they have larger armies, more nukes, more and better weapons, better training, better tech and generally more influence worldwide.

Larger armies? This is not red alert 3 brother...battles occur sectorwise here, the IA and the PLA are evenly matched. Better weapons? Most of what they use is indigenized, reverse engineered soviet equipment simply because the west won't sell anything to them. Better trained? On what basis? Their pilots get 1/3rd of our training hours, their submarines don't deploy outside of the South China sea, their media made a big deal about a destroyer conducting patrols near Somalia cause that was a new thing for them, we had SAILBOATS docking in different continents, ships working as far as Indonesia during the Tsunami. Again, read and learn. There is no reason to get defensive about a topic you have very little idea about.

basically, india is scared of holding a referendum in kashmir because they know that it will secede to pakistan or a new country?

And what about the Kashmiri pandits who were forced out? What about Leh and Ladakh? Before thinking like a western muppet look at the ground realities. Do you know that in 1965 the Kashmiri population fought for us? Or that in 1949 they cheered on the Indian army as it entered Srinagar? 50 years is a minute in the lifeline of great nations, again..read before lecturing us on morals.

what you think are the next few steps when china gets serious about it if we get our armed forces to start fighting on the border

No one is telling you to fight. Do you not understand simple english? Its a purely defensive posture, are we planning on Invading China? NO...

man am i glad that people like you have nothing to do with making foreign policy.

Better a jingoistic nationalist who knows a bit about whats happening around him than someone who has absolutely no idea about his own country.

Different viewpoints brother, live with them.

 

[blr_p]

we got the crap kicked out of us in the last war, and there is nothing to suggest that it won't happen again.

This happened when China's economy was 2/3 the size of ours !!

It was ours to lose because Nehru was afraid a strong army might mount a coup as happened with our neighbour. In some sense it was better to lose the war than to have the military overthrow the civvies. Because then everything that had been won upto that point would have been lost. Whether this was the right assessment on Nehru's part will be debated forever

All to say you can't compare 62 with the present because we were unwilling to even commit resources to buildup of the fight, which isn't the case now.

in this particular case though, i would imagine that if AP or any other territory was in contention, china would emerge as the ones who controlled it at the end.

Much simpler, if I was Chinese, i would make it look like the attack was all over the map, but concentrate on just one objective, Sikkim. Grab that and the whole NE is stranded

Now we need to learn about just how our army plans to counter that. It won't be a walkover, more like 50-50 which is good enough to deter an attack in the first place because it not worth it from the Chinese pov with those kind of odds.

Terrain is the key factor here, if you can't get forces to the frontline fast enough there is no fight. You might have plenty a 100 miles from the frontline but that's not the same.

and even though we might be able to inflict damage on them, what they would do to us would be much worse. and who knows what would happen if the conflict went nuclear, except i'm pretty sure that history would remember it as the start of world war 3.

It won't go nuclear, they would declare a cease-fire the moment Sikkim was secured. Because it would get very hot internationally for the very reasons you mentioned.

 

[vishalrao]

I haven't been reading this thread in detail and I was watching the Times Now channel on Monday night when they had some "experts" on the "special report show" then it was off limits (someone up high must have made a phone call to shut their traps). One question that Arnab Go-whatever was asking was what is the agenda/real-intention of these Chinese border "movements" since last year.

Any thoughts on that? Some points mentioned were the ADB's loan to India despite Chinese protests (them being on the bank's board or something) and another point which went like "India's military capability would double by 2014" (if I recall correctly) was made. Also (this stuff not mentioned on the TV) India's economy is likely going to start to catch up with China's. They are also watching India's aerospace (well, space) tech capability growing - today Chandrayan Moon Mission - tomorrow better spy satellites and long range nuclear tipped missiles.

Any thoughts/pointers about this comment about India's defence doubling in 5 years? Or anything else about the motive behind these Chinese actions?

(edit: Just remembered I read that the Brits recently recognised Tibet as being part of China without using the word sovereign and this invalidates some border lines laid out by the Brits way back when...so are the Chinese emboldened that they have some diplomatic/international community clout to start making louder claims)

 

[l33t_5n1p3r_max]

Any thoughts/pointers about this comment about India's defence doubling in 5 years?

2014 would be a monumental year in which India would vastly increase its defence forces.

By 2014 - MRCA's would start coming in, Gorshkov would have come in, The ADS would have begun sea trials effectively giving us 3 carriers. Scorpene inductions would have begun. The second ATV would be entering sea trials (hull already laid down), we'd also have a very capable ICBM system (not saying we don't right now, reduced the A3 payload to 500 kgs and bam, you have an ICBM), the AAD and PAD systems would be entering service, Brahmos II would be nearing induction and the air launched Brahmos I would already be in service.

The second line of SSK's would have been ordered, the Fulcrums would have completed their SMT II+ upgrades, the Mirages would have got their -5 upgrades,320 SU-30's would have been delivered, these SU-30's would have received their MLU (IRBIS AESA radar, stealth features from the SU-35), P8I's would have started their induction, thereby vastly increasinng our maritime recon capabilities, all 3 + 2 phalcons would have been delivered, C-130J inductions would complete, literally thousands of T-90's would have been inducted, the LCA would begin replacing our MiG 21's. Theres a whole bunch of contracts that would come to fruition by 2014.

By 2014 the Chinese would not even dare to look at us, thats why they realise the window of opportunity is small, and thats why they are acting against us.

The Indian armed forces of 2014 would be capable of taking the fight to the interiors of China and would completely outmatch them. As of now, the advantage in numbers is with the chinese, this advantage would diminish by 2014 while the advantages we have in quality will increase manifold.

I'd go so far as to say that given the current state of things, India would be second only to the USA..

 

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(edit: Just remembered I read that the Brits recently recognised Tibet as being part of China without using the word sovereign and this invalidates some border lines laid out by the Brits way back when...so are the Chinese emboldened that they have some diplomatic/international community clout to start making louder claims)

Vajpayee stated in 2003 that we recognise Tibet as part of China in exchange for Sikkim. So i'm thinking the Brit thing does not make much difference. Feel the decison would have been taken after consulting us on the ramifications. This article implies the Chinese still don't acknowledge Sikkim, but the reality on the ground is otherwise and changing it in their favour is expensive.

By 2014 the Chinese would not even dare to look at us, thats why they realise the window of opportunity is small, and thats why they are acting against us.

I think the window of opportunity has long past. As of today we have 10 divisions to throw at this, which is 150,000 men and these are mountain divisions which can be supplemented by other divisions if required. Wars are not won looking at screens and pushing buttons but putting boots on the ground.

Our biggest strength is we are defending not attacking. The attacking party needs at least 3 times the number to give a good fight and stand some chance. Consider the numbers in '62, 1 division for us or 15k troops vs 80k for them. So right there Chinese felt the ratio is 5-6 times to be certain. And they will ONLY go ahead if winning is certain as to lose would be unthinkable. To win for them they have to occupy ground...for us to win we should not cede any.

Does China have 750-1million men to throw at this today ? Course this war won't be fought just with the Army, Airforce will be involved as well, again they need 3-5 times more than we do. Just for Sikkim, naaah

The assumption here is nukes won't be used, because we too can use them as well. So possession of nukes can prevent a nuclear war only but not a conventional one.

This is why talk of attacks is pure hysteria by the press.

 

[l33t_5n1p3r_max]

^ A full scale war is not feasible even right now. What the chicoms will do is slowly nibble away at the borders, take posts, mark places..and then claim that these were always occupied by the Chinese.

And to help them, there will always be peacnik nehru loving Indians who will say let the people have a referendum wether they want to be with India or China. Lots of them around, Arundhati Roy, Shobha de, a bunch of the reporters, you average DU student, the moronic hippies who go to the "gay" parade but aren't really "Gay"..lol

 

[spindoctor]

Larger armies? This is not red alert 3 brother...battles occur sectorwise here, the IA and the PLA are evenly matched. Better weapons? Most of what they use is indigenized, reverse engineered soviet equipment simply because the west won't sell anything to them. Better trained? On what basis? Their pilots get 1/3rd of our training hours, their submarines don't deploy outside of the South China sea, their media made a big deal about a destroyer conducting patrols near Somalia cause that was a new thing for them, we had SAILBOATS docking in different continents, ships working as far as Indonesia during the Tsunami. Again, read and learn. There is no reason to get defensive about a topic you have very little idea about.

and you have some great insight that the rest of the indian establishment hasn't had for 50 years? please, you're just a keyboard warrior talking about war as if it's a game.

And what about the Kashmiri pandits who were forced out? What about Leh and Ladakh? Before thinking like a western muppet look at the ground realities. Do you know that in 1965 the Kashmiri population fought for us? Or that in 1949 they cheered on the Indian army as it entered Srinagar? 50 years is a minute in the lifeline of great nations, again..read before lecturing us on morals.

so if they want to be a part of india, what's the harm in having a referendum? on the one hand, you have a state which has been the focal point of 3 wars and continuous terrorism for 60 years, but hey, they cheered for the army in 1949, so it's obvious which way they would vote right?

the fact is, india is afraid of what the kashmiris want. this is why kashmir will never get solved.

No one is telling you to fight. Do you not understand simple english? Its a purely defensive posture, are we planning on Invading China? NO...

that's why i said, think a few steps ahead. when india starts military action on it's border, the chinese get pissed and send their armies there as well. so now you have 2 armies facing off across the border. and then china continues what it's doing... what happens next?

Better a jingoistic nationalist who knows a bit about whats happening around him than someone who has absolutely no idea about his own country.

Different viewpoints brother, live with them.

like i said, it's lucky people like you who talk shit don't make foreign policy.

 

[spindoctor]

Much simpler, if I was Chinese, i would make it look like the attack was all over the map, but concentrate on just one objective, Sikkim. Grab that and the whole NE is stranded

honestly, the only reason it remainsl a territorial dispute is, again, that strange word - status quo. they either don't care enough or don't want to spend the resources to pull off a stunt like the one you mentioned above.

otherwise if it came down to it, do you really think they wouldn't be able to do it?

 

[l33t_5n1p3r_max]

and you have some great insight that the rest of the indian establishment hasn't had for 50 years? please, you're just a keyboard warrior talking about war as if it's a game.

True that, I am a keyboard warrior. But at least I know something. Next time, just stop when the feeling of getting owned starts creeping in. Do something useful, like write code, or match databases or whatever it is you're good at. Leave this for some people who have spent years reading about it.

so if they want to be a part of india, what's the harm in having a referendum?

Because our people have shed their blood for it. Tommorow if someone you know dies fighting for Kashmir, tell me that we should have a referendum. Do you how the demographics of KAshmir have changed since the insurgency began? The Islamic terrorists hounded the hindus and the Sikhs out of KAshmir. What referendum is this when the original inhabitants of Kashmir, the hindu pandits, don't even live there anymore in the same numbers they were before? Its appaling how ill-educated you are about the state of affairs of your own country, yet you try to act as some kind of moral authority over someone who will school you on this topic in 15 seconds flat.

the fact is, india is afraid of what the kashmiris want. this is why kashmir will never get solved.

Its not upto the Kashmiris to decide what they want. Their ruler handed the country over to us, WE OWN IT. Just like UP cant say they want independence or just like Maharashtra can't claim independence. What you're advocating is balkanisation of a country based on the wishes of a minority. If we were not a "free" country you'd be hauled off in a black van in the next few days.

when india starts military action on it's border, the chinese get pissed and send their armies there as well.

Bullsh1t, the Chinese held an exercise with 50,000 men near the tibet border just last month. Do you even understand what we're talking about? This is not Age of empires. We can move troops wherever we want in our OWN country. Who is China to dictate that? Or do you want a referendum on that too? lol..

so now you have 2 armies facing off across the border. and then china continues what it's doing... what happens next?

Cause right now, the two armies are not at the border right? LOL...waste of time trying to educate you. I type out entire paragraphs to drill some sense into you and get 2 lines repeating the same thing over and over again like a 60's gramophone gone bad. Get back on the rocking horse son, leave this topic for people who know a bit more than you about it.

 

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otherwise if it came down to it, do you really think they wouldn't be able to do it?

Do what ?

Take Sikkim, No, assuming they are not desperate and willing to go all out. Taiwan would prolly take up first priority here and thats no cakewalk either.

Sikkim is the easiest & best prize strategically speaking in that whole area. Once they have sikkim everything else withers away and can be gobbled up for much cheaper.

 

[l33t_5n1p3r_max]

LOL....the dude has given up before the Chinese even attacked. It was the same weak knees that cost us the war in 1962. Clueless he is and on top of that, hes scared...don't expect any rationality out of him.

 

[spindoctor]

True that, I am a keyboard warrior. But at least I know something. Next time, just stop when the feeling of getting owned starts creeping in. Do something useful, like write code, or match databases or whatever it is you're good at. Leave this for some people who have spent years reading about it.

how about you leave this for people who actually have to make these decisions and have experience insteasd of talking out of your ass. you 20-something nutjob thinking you know better than those who have made indian foreign policy for 6 decades. why don't you go and wash dishes or sweep floors or whatever it is you're good at?

Because our people have shed their blood for it. Tommorow if someone you know dies fighting for Kashmir, tell me that we should have a referendum. Do you how the demographics of KAshmir have changed since the insurgency began? The Islamic terrorists hounded the hindus and the Sikhs out of KAshmir. What referendum is this when the original inhabitants of Kashmir, the hindu pandits, don't even live there anymore in the same numbers they were before? Its appaling how ill-educated you are about the state of affairs of your own country, yet you try to act as some kind of moral authority over someone who will school you on this topic in 15 seconds flat.

so yea, basically scared of the result of a referendum. at least in this, your views are the same as the indian establishment.

Its not upto the Kashmiris to decide what they want. Their ruler handed the country over to us, WE OWN IT.

that's a golden line.

how dare they think that they know what's best for them when they have you do tell them them what is.

What you're advocating is balkanisation of a country based on the wishes of a minority.

yea, except it's not a minority and a referendum would prove that.

Cause right now, the two armies are not at the border right? LOL...waste of time trying to educate you. I type out entire paragraphs to drill some sense into you and get 2 lines repeating the same thing over and over again like a 60's gramophone gone bad. Get back on the rocking horse son, leave this topic for people who know a bit more than you about it.

because you have no ability to think ahead, or actually have a sane discussion for that matter, i will ask the same question for the 3rd time. what happens after india does something about it? and the chinese start taking it seriously and put their troops there as well. then indian military action is countered by chinese military action. and now you have the armies fighting, which is where it stops being 'india defending it's borders' and turns into a war.

you are trying to educate me? please. you can type up all the shit you want about going to war because you don't have to yourself. typical definition of a keyboard warrior. the people who make these decisions that affect people's lives don't seem to agree with your assessment and haven't for decades. but of course, you can't understand why that might be right? and i'm done talking with you, silly child.

 

[spindoctor]

Do what ?

Take Sikkim, No, assuming they are not desperate and willing to go all out.

Sikkim is the easiest & best prize strategically speaking in that whole area. Once they have sikkim everything else withers away and can be gobbled up for much cheaper.

that was my question. if push comes to shove, do you think they can't cutoff eastern india by sikkim if they really wanted to?

 

[l33t_5n1p3r_max]

how about you leave this for people who actually have to make these decisions and have experience

Ahh, but compared to you, even these experienced dudes will agree I know more...ROFL. Its not hard child, breathe now...soon it'll all stop and a mod will lock this thread and you can go back to being an internet badass.

you 20-something nutjob thinking you know better than those who have made indian foreign policy for 6 decades.

Who said I know better? They know exactly the same things I do, thats why they're raising mountain divisions near the NE, shifted T-72's there and have stationed our best fighters at Tezpur. They're doing exactly what I want them to, lol, ensure the defence of our nation. Stop ranting like a rabid little doggy cause you were caught off balance here son..

why don't you go and wash dishes or sweep floors or whatever it is you're good at?

This hurts me. True story.

how dare they think that they know what's best for them when they have you do tell them them what is.

Why a referendum when there was a 50 pc turnout for the recently held elections in Kashmir? LOL! See, this is where you start losing the argument, you clearly don't read anything other than timesofindia and the Indian express..

yea, except it's not a minority and a referendum would prove that.

Kashmiris aren't a minority in our country anymore? Really? More awesome news coming up guys....stay tuned for more pieces of gyaan from this obvious cretin.

then indian military action is countered by chinese military action. and now you have the armies fighting,

Just turn auto attack off. lol...

The borders have troops there since the day we got independence....do you want us to not have any sense of security? Pagal aadmi hai pura..

you are trying to educate me? please. you can type up all the shit you want about going to war because you don't have to yourself. typical definition of a keyboard warrior.

Thats true. You don't live in Kashmir and you can speak from them for a referendum..lol, aand I can't comment here? I was born there by the way.

the people who make these decisions that affect people's lives don't seem to agree with your assessment and haven't for decades.

The funny thing is, they do . Exercises with Japan, Singapore, Vietnam..what do those tell you? Induction of the best troops and weapons we have in the NE border, what does that tell you? They understand what I'm saying because I've studied about this stuff for 8 years...you are a ToI educated muppet who can't even use proper punctuation. How about you just close your eyes now and pretend this never happened?

Also, back to your rocking horse, son. Be gentle on it or you'll fall off.

Cretin.

that was my question. if push comes to shove, do you think they can't cutoff eastern india by sikkim if they really wanted to?

They can't cause their logistics chain doesnt stretch that far. Why did they withdraw in 1962 you fool?

 

[spindoctor]

Last edited by thetoxicmind; Today at 08:59 PM.

i'm curious to know just how many more insults you had to moderate

 

[l33t_5n1p3r_max]

He just edited the last line which I had put in as a new post.

Dammit, come fight, I have one more hour for work to get over and I'm bored..