China Violates Border .. Again...

[l33t_5n1p3r_max]

Something definitely happened. There was a paki article I read which quoted residents of Ladakh saying they were seeing mass mobilisation of IA assets including artillery in the recent days.

Link - Top Stories | Pakistan Observer Newspaper online edition

said from last 20 days, they have seen some “unusual movement” of Indian army towards the border region. “We have witnessed increased movement of army vehicles. They are taking troops in large numbers towards the border area,”

I saw movement of Indian army towards the border region,” said Shakeel, who arrived a day before from Pangong. “I saw army personnel shifting artillery guns towards the border area,” he told Rising Kashmir. He said the Chinese items that used to percolate from border have been stopped from last 10 days. “The Chinese goods have stopped pouring in the market,” Shakeel said adding, “Indian army has tightened the grip along the border and nobody is allowed to pass through”.

This is a paki article though, so take it for what its worth.

 

[blr_p]

Yeah, something did happen.

 

[l33t_5n1p3r_max]

That is a minor incursion, imo something bigger is going down there. Good thing our sensationalist media have caught this up. We need to be paranoid to force our government to act...

 

[blr_p]

While it is important for the media to report instances of alleged Chinese troop intrusions into Indian territory, it should take care at the same time not to create an anti-China frenzy, which may get out of control. One was disturbed by the way a national TV channel played up in a jingoistic manner the incident in the Ladakh sector in which a Chinese patrol was alleged to have intruded into Indian territory and painted on a stone "China".

Two acknowledged experts on China, who have an excellent knowledge of the Chinese language, appeared on the programme---- a reputed academic of Delhi and a retired China expert of the Government of India. One would have expected the anchor to ask them to translate for the viewers what was written on the stone and to comment on the implications of it. If he had done it, the entire jingoistic programme might have ended in a fizzle. He did not do so. Instead, most of the time, the viewers were subjected to an anti-China harangue by a retired Army officer.

I myself do not know Chinese, but I am told by those who know Chinese that what was written on the stone was "Middle Yellow River". It could also be translated as "Central Yellow River". "Middle" can also refer to China----an allusion to the so-called Middle Kingdom. What should have been discussed at the very beginning of the programme was: Normally, detractors of China refer to it as suffering from the Middle Kingdom mentality.

Would a Chinese Army soldier use it? Why the reference to the "Yellow River"? Where is this river? Instead of having a balanced debate on such questions, the anchor went bang, bang, bang against China without first ascertaining from the two Chinese experts what exactly was written in Chinese script on the stone, which was shown in a sinister manner to the viewers.

We have a very strong case against the Chinese on the border issue, which we should project in a non-sensational, non-jingoistic manner, but by indulging in such methods we might find our credibility weakened in the eyes of the international community.

Source

 

[l33t_5n1p3r_max]

Sometimes its beneficial to whip the masses up with nationalistic fervor. The chinese follow a speak softly but have a big stick handy policy. They appear peace loving but they will exploit whatever weakness you show to them.

B Raman is a respected author but I don't share his views. The masses need a dose of nationalism every now and then.

 

[vishalrao]

This channel was Times Now - I was wondering why only they were ranting on about it and none of the other channels that I checked - CNN-IBN, NDTV were and certainly not foreign channels like BBC and CNN...

 

[blr_p]

Sometimes its beneficial to whip the masses up with nationalistic fervor.

Why ?

Is it a given that the leaders are distracted with something else like the cartoon above implies ?

For the moment the national sources are not making much of a deal with the same rigour as non-governmental ones on both sides are. The govt. of both countries are trying not to get too involved in this affair. They see it as minute in the big picture for the two countries.

Is this the wrong path to take ?

If the national leaders of both countries started making this a public spat i fear we might get into a warpath very easily

I suppose you are more of a Kapila fan

 

[spindoctor]

Sometimes its beneficial to whip the masses up with nationalistic fervor.

The masses need a dose of nationalism every now and then.

why is that?

 

[blr_p]

See Kapila's article i linked to.

Would be better if we argued over Kapila's & Raman's position than individually.

 

[dips_view]

its a common incident amplifying by some war monger without thinking the aftereffects.

 

[blr_p]

Right, their main goal is to derail our economic growth.

If we do nothing they keep up the incursions, if we plan for a war it affects our growth because its impossible not to get into an arms race with them. This is what they want.

So the leaders say nothing and let their lower downs sort it out.

 

[spindoctor]

See Kapila's article i linked to.

alright, so i read that article. it is fear mongering in it's entirety. and it still gives no valid reason why getting people worked up about this is useful. what is india going to do? go into a war it will lose?
the dumbest line...

The Indian public will never accept any territorial adjustments with China by any Indian Government. The Indian public will oppose tooth and nail any such misadventure by any Indian Government.

good to know that he speaks for the entire nation :|. people who talk like this have no interest in resolving issues.

 

[zibalingz]

Any so called "territorial adjustments" are nothing but an inevitable fight for natural resources - Water. I dont think China wants to grab some land for nothing ...and neither do the people in Arunachal want to be under Chinese rule.

This is why I never understood the ever on-going Kashmir conflict, what is the significance of Kashmir to India? Its beautiful granted but its been ruined by conflict. The people there are 99% muslims and will never want to be a part of India. Either ask them nicely to stop ****ing around or throw them across the mountains into the Pok region. Enough of this stupid territorial disputes.

Look at any official Indian map it still shows the entire J&K as part of India, how long before we realize that's not true ..will the same thing happen when China cuts Arunachal in half? Unless we live in reality, the biggest threat to our nation is our own ignorance.

 

[l33t_5n1p3r_max]

good to know that he speaks for the entire nation . people who talk like this have no interest in resolving issues.

Its our land, not China's. Why argue over Arunachal, why don't we claim Beijing or Lhasa?

what is india going to do? go into a war it will lose?

Go into a war it is prepared to fight rather than 1962. The Chinese cannot hope to win a war anymore. They will nibble away at our borders unless we stand up and take our land back. The chinese are not the pakis, once they take over our land not even uncle sam will be able to get them to vacate peacefully.

 

[spindoctor]

Its our land, not China's. Why argue over Arunachal, why don't we claim Beijing or Lhasa?

of course. talking/communicating can never resolve issues. fear mongering and idiotic posturing is definitely the way to go forward. it's a f*cking brilliant strategy that has helped us so much over the past 60 years.

Go into a war it is prepared to fight rather than 1962. The Chinese cannot hope to win a war anymore.

you think the chinese cannot hope to win? wow...

They will nibble away at our borders unless we stand up and take our land back. The chinese are not the pakis, once they take over our land not even uncle sam will be able to get them to vacate peacefully.

this part of your post i actually do think is correct. india likes to imagine itself as some emerging super power... so either be like israel and start fighting without giving a flying f*ck about the inevitably disastrous consequences or shutup and do what the rest of the world does, which is try to resolve the territorial problems by talking.

 

[spindoctor]

This is why I never understood the ever on-going Kashmir conflict, what is the significance of Kashmir to India? Its beautiful granted but its been ruined by conflict. The people there are 99% muslims and will never want to be a part of India. Either ask them nicely to stop ****ing around or throw them across the mountains into the Pok region. Enough of this stupid territorial disputes.

Look at any official Indian map it still shows the entire J&K as part of India, how long before we realize that's not true ..will the same thing happen when China cuts Arunachal in half? Unless we live in reality, the biggest threat to our nation is our own ignorance.

i kind of agree with you. the only way we get peace is if the people who actually live in kashmir are asked what they want. not two crazy nuclear powers who keep barking but in the end, have no teeth. why not have a referendum and ask the kashmiris, the ones who are actually affected, what they want? but no... the indian establishment will hang on to what some dumbass nawab signed 60 years ago, forget that pok has not been a part of india for decades. and similarly, the pakistani establishment will continue to wage a proxy war through insurgency/terrorism. it doesn't seem like either of the sides actually cares about the people in between, the ones who are actually suffering and spilling blood.

as a side note, does anyone know of any good forum that discusses topics of indian politics and religion, which are generally not discussed here on techenclave?

 

[dips_view]

thinkdigit that infested wd communist/fascist/imperialist/hindutbadis/communal etc.........

 

[blr_p]

The solution to problem is an exchange of maps of the border between the two countries but the Chinese have refused to do so. Because then they can't keep up the game.

As for a response, we have reacted in the past, see what happened in '87 at Sumdorong Chu. To top it all the state of Arunachal was formally created in the midst of it

So show of force has been done, and the decison after was to keep posts unmanned near the border, because every time we tried to set one up the Chinese reciprocated and it detoriated from there. Just patrols now & then is the norm as of now.

The motto is 'a bad peace is better than a good war'.

It helps to reduce expenses, to save time and efforts which are wasted during the process of war and the parties can control the process and results of dispute resolution. It also involves less animosity and stress, and makes the dispute parties more content with the resolution of the dispute once their actual interests and needs are met. Furthermore, it provides the opportunity of re-establishing good relations and mutual respect with the opposing party, and therefore there is more likelihood that the amicable agreement will be carried out by the goodwill.

 

[l33t_5n1p3r_max]

fear mongering and idiotic posturing is definitely the way to go forward. it's a f*cking brilliant strategy that has helped us so much over the past 60 years.

We've been PASSIVE all these years, see what its got us. The one time we took a stand we split Pakistanis in two and had Op Falcon.

you think the chinese cannot hope to win?

Yes I know they can't win. Can you tell me how you feel the Chicoms can win the war?

why not have a referendum and ask the kashmiris, the ones who are actually affected, what they want?

Because given a choice, even I would want to make a new country out of my home. Just think of the naxalites..VHP would want a hindu state, Kerala would want a christian state, Tamil eelam, Communist eastern belt, UP Bihar would want to merge into Mumbai.

If we start holding referendums every week there wont be a country left.

so either be like israel and start fighting without giving a flying f*ck

We're not commiting an agression here. We're defending OUR land. Talks mean sh1t when the other dude construes them as a sign of weakness. How do you think the Chinese entered 1962, by talks and negotiations? You protect your own land by being agressive, not by being Manmohan Singh.

 

[blr_p]

The thing with a war is we won't lose but at the same time we won't gain anything either which makes it a waste from our perspective. Operation chequerboard has shown to both countries that we are capable of mobilising forces should the need arise, that too 20+ years ago. The situation isn't any different now.

We have already tried war, near war & negotiations. This does not mean we stop, it has to continue, the diplomatic offensive is the best bet here.