Health & Fitness COVID Vaccine Experience and your preference.

[thomasjude47]

@thomasjude47
> Yes, just like horses of today restrict Ayurveda and other gimmicks to places where their absence or presence does not make a difference.

The horses are effective, that is why they are still used by defense. And even Camels. At least, get a better example.

> PLague killed so much of the population because there was no modern medicine or antibiotics during that era. Ayurveda was there, like a silent observer,

So, plague killing people in Europe was Ayurveda's fault ?
Man, if you make silly arguments like this, note that Ayurveda mentions isolation in cases like these. And considered sanitation was important. Which is even followed in modern era during Covid19 which killed millions (pharma lobby as mute spectator or greedy villain is obviously different topic). Read some history and you will find how silk route influenced it, to British rule's casual attitude and even geo-politics caused damage.
At that time, Ayurveda also provided possible options which it can.

> Google search is not research...pls understand that
Tons of research papers and articles at your finger tip dude, for basic information people don't direc

@thomasjude47
> Yes, just like horses of today restrict Ayurveda and other gimmicks to places where their absence or presence does not make a difference.

The horses are effective, that is why they are still used by defense. And even Camels. At least, get a better example.

> PLague killed so much of the population because there was no modern medicine or antibiotics during that era. Ayurveda was there, like a silent observer,

So, plague killing people in Europe was Ayurveda's fault ?
Man, if you make silly arguments like this, note that Ayurveda mentions isolation in cases like these. And considered sanitation was important. Which is even followed in modern era during Covid19 which killed millions (pharma lobby as mute spectator or greedy villain is obviously different topic). Read some history and you will find how silk route influenced it, to British rule's casual attitude and even geo-politics caused damage.
At that time, Ayurveda also provided possible options which it can.

> Google search is not research...pls understand that
Tons of research papers and articles at your finger tip dude, for basic information people don't directly travel to research labs and talk with scientists, technology these days, you know. Lol. You reached fag end of this.

Isolation ? If so it will be contradictory to what ayurveda is. Note that there is no germ theory in ayurveda.
Only vatha pittha kapha. Bacteria and virus doesn't exist in ayurveda (the actual ayurveda which we are proud of)
We had many bacterial diseases in India which were present here since time immemorial
They killed millions here and ayurveda was here all along without any competition or lobbying from modern pharma.
Some disease for example - Leprosy, plague Tuberculosis, malaria, cholera, smallpox. Did ayurveda cure any of this? Sounds like a silly question to me..but would like to hear an answer .
Any treatment for snake bite envenomation?

Doing research with Google is likely to lead to you to bogus articles. There are other ways to do research. You can use Google to lead you to some sites, like using internet explorer to download Firefox
And sorry if I offended you through my comments.

 

[guest_999]

Around 30-50% of European population (where medicine / modern medicine / allopathy was used) got wiped out in misdeal period. What about Spanish Flu and many other pandemics ?

You don't even know that modern medicine era started in early 1800s & penicillin was discovered in 1928 starting the age of antibiotics & debating this topic?

Not so much on this, I like to follow LiverDoc because some of the things he has highlighted has been truly eye-opening so far but what I dont agree with is his attitude towards anything "non-conventional", saying anything thats not been proved in clinical trials/research, specially stuff that we have been following for hundreds of years being marked as a "quack" or a "witch doctor's medicine" is just bullshit, Just because it hasnt been proven yet doesn't mean its bullshit.

Wording might be harsh but that is the bitter truth though. See below.

Case in point, my family, we have been using homeopathic medicine/ayurveda for decades now, my father's brother (my uncle) is a doctor and even he ends up just using homeopathic medicines, while I would say that the wariness against Western medicines is highly exaggerated, there is still some truth to it, I can offer a couple of anecdotes on it, first is mine, I had suffered through stage 2 Pneumonia and was admitted to the hospital with a heavy antibiotics regimen, and after the treatment my LFT's (Liver function tests) were so bad, it looked like I was an experienced alcoholic according to the doctor.

Nope, thats what you have been led to believe, I cant offer you any research except for anecdotal evidence, but I am pretty sure there are people around you who use patanjali or other ayurvedic products, look up patanajli Yog gram in haridwar, its kinda like a health retreat where Ramdev/Patanjali use ayurved medicines and exercies etc to treat patients, and I have known many including my parents who have gone their and have actually felt relief from chronic pains/diseases.

My father is a chronic patient of Gout and my mother too has joint issues, and while they could function, the pain sometimes left them unable to function, they attended that retreat for a couple of weeks and while the pain was there, it was drastically reduced and the frequency of flare ups have significantly reduced too and all they did over there was take those medicines, strict diet control, Yog in the morning and those therapies that they were prescribed like enemas, Leech therapy etc etc. All of this was simply ayurved and nothing else. We know others too in our network, one a diabetic and other a liver patient who have felt significant relief too after going there and I am pretty sure you can find some in your own network too,

you can call it whatever you want but it does work and its not a luck issue.

This is what I said:

Scientists still don't know much about human brain functioning & though human genome is 100% mapped humanity still is far away from understanding the gene code. There are ppl who survive multiple gun shot wounds & even develop immunity against aids (elite suppressors) so it is not that difficult to think that there are ppl who can recover from serious ailments by just drinking 99.99% water (aka homeopathy).

Now do you realize that there are people out there who can survive multiple gun shot wounds & even can develop immunity to AIDS which auyrved or homeopathy or even modern medicine wouldn't dare claim to have a cure unless they want to be held guilty of fraud by any even half decent court in the world then what are all those examples/"anecdotes" you mentioned above even amount to. You likely had the bad luck of receiving not proper treatment (just like how every engineer is not top grade in every field of their specialization the same thing apply for doctors). When I said luck I mostly meant your genetics which is indeed a matter of luck & the reason why many chain smokers live 80+ years & many eat unhealthy food but still don't become obese. Same genetics may also affect your response to scientific medicines in a negative manner.

If we really are talking about this, I would say the bigger issue was the british occupation and their heavy exploitation, people were dying more of starvation and overwork than anything else

How do you know? You probably don't know but there was a time when govt used to run full fledged govt campaigns to urge ppl to wash their hands before eating food but you might have heard about the more recent "swachh bharat" campaign & "toilet in every home" campaign so why do you think govt running all those campaigns & if that is the situation today then imagine what was the situation in early 1900s or before. Outside of immediate wars ppl used to die in biggest numbers only due to famines & diseases in earlier times, this is a well known fact.

 

[TEUser2K1]

@thomasjude47
> Isolation ? If so it will be contradictory to what ayurveda is. Note that there is no germ theory in ayurveda.
Only contradiction here is your understanding of Ayurveda. Now, now, am not having time to teach you this.

> We had many bacterial diseases in India which were present here since time immemorial
In India ? Have a brief look about origin of deceases, you will find many from other countries too.
However, Ayurveda happens to be oldest methods and originated in India. Other countries like China, arabs, etc. have their own ways obviously. Hence the use of alternative medicine, traditional medicine, etc.

> They killed millions here and ayurveda was here all along without any competition or lobbying from modern pharma.
They killed millions when modern pharma were onlookers during Covid19 too ? What is your point ?
I mean this have nothing much to do with ayurveda / modern science.
In other comments clearly mentioned that modern science is best, but clueless stymieing of ayurveda because it's a new age fad or some instafluencer mandated so, deserves to be called out. This is not some modern science vs ayurveda one to one fight.

> Some disease for example - malaria,
> Did ayurveda cure any of this?
Not ayurveda, rather traditional medicine, but it will be good to read history of Quinine, a medicine used to treat malaria:

Quinine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

> Any treatment for snake bite envenomation?
Tons on books and palm leaves on this topic, but your acceptability and effectiveness for the time period written matters.

> Doing research with Google is likely to lead to you to bogus articles.
Yeah, you have to search for genuine articles. lol.

> There are other ways to do research.
Then do that too.

You can use Google to lead you to some sites, like using internet explorer to download Firefox
Lol, dude what are you on ?

> And sorry if I offended you through my comments.
Lol, no man you didn't offend me, but the level of denial and thought process intrigues me.

@guest_999
> You don't even know that modern medicine era started in early 1800s & penicillin was discovered in 1928 starting the age of antibiotics & debating this topic?

Wondering in which timeline did term "modern medicine' got coined, as when it started to be used in current day.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2095496419300330

History of medicine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

History of medicine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

and

History of medicine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[thomasjude47]

@TEUser2K1 Are you an alternative medicine practitioner?

 

[TEUser2K1]

@thomasjude47
> Are you an alternative medicine practitioner?
In case you are asking whether am recommending alternative medicine to others, No.
Will I prefer alternative medicines over modern medicine ? No.
Will I use alternative medicines if required after self analysis, Yes.

 

[guest_999]

Wondering in which timeline did term "modern medicine' got coined, as when it started to be used in current day.

When Morphine was first manufactured using a chemical reaction to be sold commercially as pain medication.

In case you are asking whether am recommending alternative medicine to others, No.
Will I prefer alternative medicines over modern medicine ? No.
Will I use alternative medicines if required after self analysis, Yes.

Now this is true politician talk. Say one thing while leaving enough loopholes to twist the meaning to completely opposite direction if required. No need for anyone here to read walls of texts when above two sentences are more than enough.

To all those still undecided, always ask this before blindly believing anyone saying "traditional medicines" are better. Whichever major politician/businessman you like if he/she gets into some accident or have a heart attack or get into some accident then given an option would he go to AIIMS or would he go to Haridwar/whatever trendy traditional medicine centre is nearby & there is your answer.

 

[Kaleen Bhaiya]

To all those still undecided, always ask this before blindly believing anyone saying "traditional medicines" are better. Whichever major politician/businessman you like if he/she gets into some accident or have a heart attack or get into some accident then given an option would he go to AIIMS or would he go to Haridwar/whatever trendy traditional medicine centre is nearby & there is your answer.

Wait!! Wouldn't that bearded self proclaimed Baba come to their rescue with the ministers being a guinea pig for the world famous drugs( like cough cough*** Coro cough cough** nil) and claim that his medicines did save their lives!!

 

[thomasjude47]

@thomasjude47
> Are you an alternative medicine practitioner?
In case you are asking whether am recommending alternative medicine to others, No.
Will I prefer alternative medicines over modern medicine ? No.
Will I use alternative medicines if required after self analysis, Yes.

any background in human biology or medicine?

 

[ibose]

Well, as usual this thread has strayed so far away from its topic that it may be closed by the Mods soon. In the meantime, anyone reading anything on this thread (or any thread here, for that matter) may do well to visit this page and read the first two lines -

Terms and rules

You must agree to these terms and rules before using the site.

techenclave.com

With that said, I will go back to my -

 

[TEUser2K1]

When Morphine was first manufactured using a chemical reaction to be sold commercially as pain medication.


Now this is true politician talk. Say one thing while leaving enough loopholes to twist the meaning to completely opposite direction if required. No need for anyone here to read walls of texts when above two sentences are more than enough.

To all those still undecided, always ask this before blindly believing anyone saying "traditional medicines" are better. Whichever major politician/businessman you like if he/she gets into some accident or have a heart attack or get into some accident then given an option would he go to AIIMS or would he go to Haridwar/whatever trendy traditional medicine centre is nearby & there is your answer.

As usual misrepresenting other's comments by shouting, point to sentences where I said 'traditional medicines' are better over modern medicine.
When every attempt fails, start shouting and stymieing, the usual tactics.
Only comment is about acknowledging influence of 'traditional medicines' in modern medicine. The kind of research which is very well being funded and ongoing for the future benefit of humanity.
And you miserably failed in your example too.

Also:
>TEUser2K1 said:
>Wondering in which timeline did term "modern medicine' got coined, as when it started to be used in current day.

@guest_999
When Morphine was first manufactured using a chemical reaction to be sold commercially as pain medication.

The earliest known reference to morphine can be traced back to Theophrastus in the 3rd century BC, however, possible references to morphine may go as far back as 2100 BC as Sumerian clay tablets which records lists of medical prescriptions include opium-based cures.
You single-handedly clarified all doubts for yourself and everyone.

LOL, the delusion and denial in these threads are freaking weird.

 

[Neotheone]

That's because the basics are wrong. You cannot build up on something which has its basics wrong. Things written in ayurvedic texts, homeopathy etc are utterly rubbish. You can read an ayurvedic/homeopathic scripture and verify that it's all wrong by just referring a 8th standard biology textbook.

I would recommend that you read about heuristics and limits of reductionist science before we debate this, otherwise it will just be a discussion where you will just rubbish a lot of things. I get where you are coming from but you will just see my statements as baseless, or worse, cast aspersions on me.

 

[thomasjude47]

I would recommend that you read about heuristics and limits of reductionist science before we debate this, otherwise it will just be a discussion where you will just rubbish a lot of things. I get where you are coming from but you will just see my statements as baseless, or worse, cast aspersions on me.

Deleted my previous comment.
I will be open to discussion if it can be fruitful. Fruitful only if a reference or proof can be produced. Otherwise it will be like two people arguing in the a market. Sorry my previous comments went that way to a certain extent .

 

[Neotheone]

Deleted my previous comment.
I will be open to discussion if it can be fruitful. Fruitful only if a reference or proof can be produced. Otherwise, it will be like two people arguing in the a market. Sorry my previous comments went that way to a certain extent .

This is such an amazing thing to see that in the age of trigger-happy social media users. I respect that and thank you. BTW it is ok as far as I am concerned for you to disagree and be blunt or even harsh btw, I assure you I can deal with being called wrong unless it comes to use of logical fallacies to do so, or if one uses deliberate false arguments/ half-truths, so I took no offence. I just wanted to get my point across.

 

[altair21]

The antibiotic which affected your liver. Actually, it is not followed in clinical practice. its a histopathological stage which doctors cannot say.

ah didnt know that the stages werent official but it makes sense I guess, I dont know the antibiotic in question, I'll have to look up my medical files to get the name but I was a on an IV drip regimen, three times a day when I was in hospital (don't even remember it lol, I was out of it for most of the time) and for the next couple of weeks after discharge, the frequency was reduced to 2 times a day before a final checkup when I was given a clean bill of health

This is what I said:

No offense, this aint what you said judging from your previous comments,

How do you know? You probably don't know but there was a time when govt used to run full fledged govt campaigns to urge ppl to wash their hands before eating food but you might have heard about the more recent "swachh bharat" campaign & "toilet in every home" campaign so why do you think govt running all those campaigns & if that is the situation today then imagine what was the situation in early 1900s or before. Outside of immediate wars ppl used to die in biggest numbers only due to famines & diseases in earlier times, this is a well known fact.

and how do you know that epidemics were resposible for the high mortality rate during those times?

Isolation ? If so it will be contradictory to what ayurveda is. Note that there is no germ theory in ayurveda.
Only vatha pittha kapha. Bacteria and virus doesn't exist in ayurveda (the actual ayurveda which we are proud of)
We had many bacterial diseases in India which were present here since time immemorial
They killed millions here and ayurveda was here all along without any competition or lobbying from modern pharma.
Some disease for example - Leprosy, plague Tuberculosis, malaria, cholera, smallpox. Did ayurveda cure any of this? Sounds like a silly question to me..but would like to hear an answer .
Any treatment for snake bite envenomation?

Doing research with Google is likely to lead to you to bogus articles. There are other ways to do research. You can use Google to lead you to some sites, like using internet explorer to download Firefox
And sorry if I offended you through my comments.

Idk what sense you are getting from us, but we aint discounting western medicine, just like @TEUser2K1 said, we are the first ones that will go to the doctors to get Allopathy/ whatever medicines they prescribe, all we are saying is that Homeopathy or whatever you wanna call it, it aint quack, shit works, how effective it is compared to western medicine? thats a different issue, I will never say that I'll forego western medicine over homeopathy/ayurveda, what I will is that say I prefer to rely on it a lot less because of higher side effects and the fact for smaller ailments and chronic issues, homeopathy is also effective.

P.S> since you have worked in a hospital before, have you asked doctors how much they use ayurvedic/homeopathic remedies in their homes? you might be surprised by the answer, again, I can only offer anecdotal evidence, but we have consulted doctors majorly from KGMC, Apollo, Narayana etc and in about 60% of the cases (majorly for my parents), we have been adviced by doctors to try following an ayurvedic regimen (not necessarily patanjali) and try some home remedies before going for any bigger operations/treatment and that's not even taking into account the doctor network of my uncle.

 

[guest_999]

and how do you know that epidemics were resposible for the high mortality rate during those times?

Frontiers | Pandemics Throughout History

The emergence and spread of infectious diseases with pandemic potential occurred regularly throughout history. Major pandemics and epidemics such as plague, ...

www.frontiersin.org

No offense, this aint what you said judging from your previous comments,

All I was & am saying is that human body/brain is still a mystery to science so don't get surprised by someone getting cured by following some "unconventional approach" as it is likely just one of the human brain mystery healing the body on its own & the timing of that unconventional approach was just a lucky coincidence.

 

[altair21]

Frontiers | Pandemics Throughout History

The emergence and spread of infectious diseases with pandemic potential occurred regularly throughout history. Major pandemics and epidemics such as plague, ...

www.frontiersin.org

no offense, but the link you shared just details the pandemic history, it doesnt note the deathtoll, and as a counter point of your article, I would say to go through this

All I was & am saying is that human body/brain is still a mystery to science so don't get surprised by someone getting cured by following some "unconventional approach" as it is likely just one of the human brain mystery healing the body on its own & the timing of that unconventional approach was just a lucky coincidence.

yep, thousands of people in a retreat where the only medicines/food/exercise given to them by ayurvedic doctors getting healed is a massive "brain coincidence", and the thousands of people who are taking homepathic/ayurvedic medicines daily are just experiencing Placebo.

I wont suggest that you start following ayurved but atleast dont discount the experiences of others, just because nothing has been proven does not mean its a hoax.

Also for others, I think this might be a good read through acharya balkrishna - Google Scholar (these are a collection of research papers published by patanjali, and while one might say that most of them are published in not so well known papers, I think we all can agree that we can call springer ones legit)

EDIT: I am wrong about springer, they are just a publisher, my bad

 

[thomasjude47]

Idk what sense you are getting from us, but we aint discounting western medicine, just like @TEUser2K1 said, we are the first ones that will go to the doctors to get Allopathy/ whatever medicines they prescribe, all we are saying is that Homeopathy or whatever you wanna call it, it aint quack, shit works, how effective it is compared to western medicine? thats a different issue, I will never say that I'll forego western medicine over homeopathy/ayurveda, what I will is that say I prefer to rely on it a lot less because of higher side effects and the fact for smaller ailments and chronic issues, homeopathy is also effective.

Sadly, there is no proof of any of those working; only anecdotal evidence exists so far. So without evidence, I can't recommend them to anyone, maybe only for some conditions where a placebo effect is warranted. . It applies to treatment options in modern medicine as well; no proof means no recommendation. Ayurveda had potential because many of the compounds had active principles that actually worked, Eg- reserpine in rauwolfia extract. Such working things were already researched, refined, and integrated into scientific medicine.

no offense, but the link you shared just details the pandemic history, it doesnt note the deathtoll, and as a counter point of your article, I would say to go through this


yep, thousands of people in a retreat where the only medicines/food/exercise given to them by ayurvedic doctors getting healed is a massive "brain coincidence", and the thousands of people who are taking homepathic/ayurvedic medicines daily are just experiencing Placebo.

I wont suggest that you start following ayurved but atleast dont discount the experiences of others, just because nothing has been proven does not mean its a hoax.

Also for others, I think this might be a good read through acharya balkrishna - Google Scholar (these are a collection of research papers published by patanjali, and while one might say that most of them are published in not so well known papers, I think we all can agree that we can call springer ones legit)

EDIT: I am wrong about springer, they are just a publisher, my bad

Kindly take these articles to someone you trust who can do critical appraisal for these. They will explain things to you .

 

[Kilroyquasar]

P.S> since you have worked in a hospital before, have you asked doctors how much they use ayurvedic/homeopathic remedies in their homes? you might be surprised by the answer, again, I can only offer anecdotal evidence, but we have consulted doctors majorly from KGMC, Apollo, Narayana etc and in about 60% of the cases (majorly for my parents), we have been adviced by doctors to try following an ayurvedic regimen (not necessarily patanjali) and try some home remedies before going for any bigger operations/treatment and that's not even taking into account the doctor network of my uncle.

as a side-read on something a bit related to the parts highlighted in your above quote:

https://www.business-standard.com/article/news-ani/indian-doctors-substitute-ayurvedic-drugs-for-antibiotics-during-surgery-116050200717_1.html

 

[thomasjude47]

as a side-read on something a bit related to the parts highlighted in your above quote:

https://www.business-standard.com/article/news-ani/indian-doctors-substitute-ayurvedic-drugs-for-antibiotics-during-surgery-116050200717_1.html

Surgery can be done without prophylactic antibiotics. Elective surgeries are general clean procedures and some studies don't recommend use of antibiotics. I am not a surgeon and not well versed so no further comments. Use of ayurveda had any role in the above case we cannot say without doing an RCT. And these silly things make it to news here in india and people get misleaded so easily.

Almost all big modern medicine hospitals have an ayurveda branch. It's their way of expanding the spectrum of business. My hospital also has one and some doctors also prescribe ayurveda - only as supplements that too produced by well regulated companies. Supplement market is big and often incentives are very attractive also for the hospitals and doctors.

 

[guest_999]

no offense, but the link you shared just details the pandemic history, it doesnt note the deathtoll,

??

Between 541 and 543, the plague killed an estimated 100 million people in the Roman Empire and especially in its capital, Constantinople. The highly developed structure of the Roman Empire facilitated the spread of the Justinian plague along its trade and military routes. In contrast, the plague did not affect the less organized barbarian societies outside of Rome’s borders. The high mortality caused by the disease might have contributed to the weakening and eventually to the decline of the Byzantine Empire. After this initial pandemic, intermittent plague outbreaks occurred every 8 to 12 years for two centuries and then disappeared for unknown reasons.

The second plague pandemic lasted in Europe until the early of the 19th century and killed 200 million people. The lineages of Y. pestis that caused the plague of Justinian and the Black Death were independent emergences into human population (Wagner et al., 2014). The Black Death (1347–1351) killed as many as 30% of the European population and was followed by successive waves such as the plague of Milan (1630), the great plague of London (1665–1666) and the plague of Marseille (1720–1722).

yep, thousands of people in a retreat where the only medicines/food/exercise given to them by ayurvedic doctors getting healed is a massive "brain coincidence", and the thousands of people who are taking homepathic/ayurvedic medicines daily are just experiencing Placebo.

I wont suggest that you start following ayurved but atleast dont discount the experiences of others, just because nothing has been proven does not mean its a hoax.

Total human population currently is around 8 billion & elite suppressors (the ones having immunity towards aids) are estimated to be at least 0.5% which is around 4 crore people. Now this is the best one can possibly get via luck/genetics in human species so imagine how many are there with natural immunity/above typical healing capability for much lesser diseases/ailments. Yes those thousands of ppl in a retreat might be getting better but none of them are also aids/stage-4 cancer patients so my argument still holds enough weight.

I am not discounting the experience of others, I even said that ayurved/traditional medicines might be good for typical/non-serious ailments but just don't consider it on par with scientific medicine when it comes to serious situations/matter of life & death.

Even for those who seriously believe in ayurved, just keep in mind that currently there is no regulatory body like NMC (National Medical Commission) for ayurved/its practitioners in India so you can't even be sure that what you are eating is actually ayurved based & not just a random concoction of some herbs mixed with some chemicals.