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[Kilroyquasar]

Surgery can be done without prophylactic antibiotics. Elective surgeries are general clean procedures and some studies don't recommend use of antibiotics. I am not a surgeon and not well versed so no further comments. Use of ayurveda had any role in the above case we cannot say without doing an RCT. And these silly things make it to news here in india and people get misleaded so easily.

except however that here this octogenarian gentleman's condition of benign prostrate fell into the 'clean contaminated' category that requires administration of 'atleast 3 doses of prophylactic antibiotics', while he has had a lifelong history of severe reactions to antibiotics. recovery however after this procedure was observed to be "unusually faster". from what i vaguely recall (not sure) when i had come across this news on TV at that time, he was kept on some concoctions & meds which included formulations of black pepper, turmeric etc post-surgery to prevent infections.
some more interesting reading about this case here:

The role of Ayurveda management in preventing surgical site infections instead of surgical antibiotic prophylaxis

It is probably for the first time in the history of modern surgery that Benign Prostate Hyperplasia (BPH) surgery which belongs to ‘clean contaminated’ class and requires at least 3 doses of prophylactic antibiotic as per recommendations ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[thomasjude47]

except however that here this octogenarian gentleman's condition of benign prostrate fell into the 'clean contaminated' category that requires administration of 'atleast 3 doses of prophylactic antibiotics', while he has had a lifelong history of severe reactions to antibiotics. recovery however after this procedure was observed to be "unusually faster". from what i vaguely recall (not sure) when i had come across this news on TV at that time, he was kept on some concoctions & meds which included formulations of black pepper, turmeric etc post-surgery to prevent infections.
some more interesting reading about this case here:

The role of Ayurveda management in preventing surgical site infections instead of surgical antibiotic prophylaxis

It is probably for the first time in the history of modern surgery that Benign Prostate Hyperplasia (BPH) surgery which belongs to ‘clean contaminated’ class and requires at least 3 doses of prophylactic antibiotic as per recommendations ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Good bless India and it's youth, this is only a case report. Was there any follow up to this report? Holds little to no value to this point

 

[TEUser2K1]

@Kilroyquasar
That was a good informative link, curcumin with black pepper extracts is reported as anti inflammatory is several studies.
3-4yrs back I too was found to be allergic towards certain antibiotic which was prescribed for ~5 days for a minor ailment.
Turned allergic to few other regular use items in very recent years. Never bothered a thing in life about all these until I turned allergic.

 

[Kilroyquasar]

Good bless India and it's youth, this is only a case report. Was there any follow up to this report? Holds little to no value to this point

the patient was kept under observation for over a month & recovered completely (his medicines were started from 10 days prior the surgery under expert guidance). india & its youth or not but the old gent & the team of docs were blessed fruitfully eventually
since it was a urological condition/operation with urine-retention so had a very high chance of post-operative infection. your point about no need of antibiotics was negated here from the case-specifics as in the report so seen in that light the procedure adopted & the outcome hold some research-value in that regard. not aware of follow-up other than whats publicly available. the hospital/surgeon urologist dr subhash yadav who holds some repute in the region will be the best to tell on/about that.

 

[thomasjude47]

the patient was kept under observation for over a month & recovered completely (his medicines were started from 10 days prior the surgery under expert guidance). india & its youth or not but the old gent & the team of docs were blessed fruitfully eventually
since it was a urological condition/operation with urine-retention so had a very high chance of post-operative infection. your point about no need of antibiotics was negated here from the case-specifics as in the report so seen in that light the procedure adopted & the outcome hold some research-value in that regard. not aware of follow-up other than whats publicly available. the hospital/surgeon urologist dr subhash yadav who holds some repute in the region will be the best to tell on/about that.

I was asking about any follow up studies. Not questioning the credibility of the surgeon. An observation was made so validation should come from further studies and RCT s. Otherwise this holds no value. The author got a publication under his name that's it . Holds no value from evidence point of view
I would argue that the patient recovered because he was consuming kadak tea every morning and not because of the turmeric... Can you prove otherwise ? The reason why this is not an evidence

 

[TEUser2K1]

@thomasjude47
> I would argue that the patient recovered because he was consuming kadak tea every morning and not because of the turmeric... Can you prove otherwise ?

From the publication:
"He led a very disciplined life, getting up early in the morning, doing yoga and morning walks and very disciplined dietary habits. No history of tea, coffee, smoking or alcohol intake and he remained strictly vegetarian throughout his life."

I know you didn't exactly mean that, but just was clarifying that specific example, if this note interest you.

 

[Rockfella]

Never got vaccinated! Alive and kicking

 

[thomasjude47]

@thomasjude47
> I would argue that the patient recovered because he was consuming kadak tea every morning and not because of the turmeric... Can you prove otherwise ?

From the publication:
"He led a very disciplined life, getting up early in the morning, doing yoga and morning walks and very disciplined dietary habits. No history of tea, coffee, smoking or alcohol intake and he remained strictly vegetarian throughout his life."

I know you didn't exactly mean that, but just was clarifying that specific example, if this note interest you.

Not literally. I will argue that it's the effect of yoga or that tea or coffee consumption predispose to Surgical site infection. What that this is just a case report and not evidence of anything.

 

[TEUser2K1]

@thomasjude47
> I will argue that it's the effect of yoga or that tea or coffee consumption predispose to Surgical site infection.

>> "...No history of tea, coffee, smoking or alcohol intake and he remained strictly vegetarian throughout his life..."

Don't know why you are talking about tea, coffee, etc. while it is fully and clearly mentioned he don't have such habits.
So, it's power of yoga alone or was it vegetarian food ! ?
Or his hard mature age of 83yrs /s ?

 

[thomasjude47]

@thomasjude47
> I will argue that it's the effect of yoga or that tea or coffee consumption predispose to Surgical site infection.

>> "...No history of tea, coffee, smoking or alcohol intake and he remained strictly vegetarian throughout his life..."

Don't know why you are talking about tea, coffee, etc. while it is fully and clearly mentioned he don't have such habits.
So, it's power of yoga alone or was it vegetarian food ! ?
Or his hard mature age of 83yrs /s ?

What I simply meant is that this is not evidence and only a case report. This is how you get ripped apart if you cite this as evidence somewhere...like a thesis or a proposed study.

 

[TEUser2K1]

Can read and understand that this is a case report, not a research paper. No body asked you about the distinction and difference.

Hence I was simply ripping apart your eager false statement about coffee and tea when at least that part is clearly well stated.

Only thing now is that the man is cured and no body knows how and why since there is no evidence and research report.
Report is from 2017, so God knows how and where he is.

 

[thomasjude47]

Can read and understand that this is a case report, not a research paper. No body asked you about the distinction and difference.

Hence I was simply ripping apart your eager false statement about coffee and tea when at least that part is clearly well stated.

Only thing now is that the man is cured and no body knows how and why since there is no evidence and research report.
Report is from 2017, so God knows how and where he is.

Nice.. remembering what Mark Twain said and withdrawing from this conversation..good luck

 

[TEUser2K1]

Outright misrepresentation of statements and after looking at mirror you remember Mark Twain !
Congratulations to you too !

 

[thomasjude47]

Outright misrepresentation of statements and after looking at mirror you remember Mark Twain !
Congratulations to you too !

Keep up the confidence.. good luck

 

[altair21]

Sadly, there is no proof of any of those working; only anecdotal evidence exists so far. So without evidence, I can't recommend them to anyone, maybe only for some conditions where a placebo effect is warranted. . It applies to treatment options in modern medicine as well; no proof means no recommendation.

Oh def agreed, I aint recommending this to anyone, I have maybe just twice in my life offered my homeopath medicines to someone else and both times, repeatedly warned them of this

Kindly take these articles to someone you trust who can do critical appraisal for these. They will explain things to you .

I dont have anyone except my uncle in my circle, can you point out what's wrong? or atleast tell me some keywords i can look into and read up on?

 

[Kilroyquasar]

I was asking about any follow up studies. Not questioning the credibility of the surgeon. An observation was made so validation should come from further studies and RCT s. Otherwise this holds no value. The author got a publication under his name that's it . Holds no value from evidence point of view
I would argue that the patient recovered because he was consuming kadak tea every morning and not because of the turmeric... Can you prove otherwise ? The reason why this is not an evidence

i get what you're saying. i however cited that excerpt (of atleast 3 doses of antibiotics as recommended protocol) & the report as an "interesting read" as proof against your assumption about that surgery probably not requiring any antibiotics in the first place..not as some 'evidentiary thesis/research-paper'. the report however carries references to studies on the efficacies of what would've and apparently worked, the (formulations of) medicinal plants & herbs and their potential. now if you want & deem yourself fit to, you may in your personal capacity challenge for evidence those some of the top brains in the field who devised these & on whose guidance the patient was put on the regimen of pre per & post-operative periods of medicinal care; not (through) me.

the patient was discharged the very next day (amazing i think, given his age..but possible also probably due to his disciplined lifestyle & thus resilience already), and was under observation for overall the next 6 months, during which time am sure he must've been subjected to multiple clinical/lab tests nonetheless.
since many docs were surprised (and skeptical) & enthusiastic about such a procedure & its positive outcome, expressing desire about research to be taken forward on this, i suppose there would've been some follow-up studies which am sadly not aware of. as i said, the best recourse would be to directly contact the hospital itself or/and the concerned doc(s) if one is genuinely curious & interested. dr yadav particularly has some interviews & videos of his on youtube so i believe he must not be unapproachable over mail/social media. heck, had i been in india in his city now i would've myself probably sought his appointment on the pretext of urological consultation (am prone anyway to kidney stones) & then asked about this to him.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

anyway, here's btw another very interesting stuff to watch/read a 'case-report' of (not a 'thesis'/'paper' though)..no "kadak tea-coffee pepper-turmeric" or disciplined life & diet & yama-niyama-pratyahara yoga-pranayama-dhyana etc. too in the 'equation'):

more details:

Scientists spot an orangutan using a plant to treat his own wound in the wild

In a rare observed case of self-treatment in a wild animal, scientists documented an orangutan applying a medicinal plant to a wound on his face.

www.statnews.com

https://www.science.org/content/article/orangutan-plays-doctor-heals-himself (similar behaviour of using medicinal plants exhibited by other animals/apes to treat injuries/diseases & heal/prevent infections)
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-024-58988-7 (same case, with mentions about use of plants/herbs by humans as well as animals to treat diseases. pretty interesting!!)

Never got vaccinated! Alive and kicking

nice! btw have you continued (with) your strength training routines, even if on-and-off?

 

[thomasjude47]

i get what you're saying. i however cited that excerpt (of atleast 3 doses of antibiotics as recommended protocol) & the report as an "interesting read" as proof against your assumption about that surgery probably not requiring any antibiotics in the first place..not as some 'evidentiary thesis/research-paper'. the report however carries references to studies on what would've and apparently worked, the (formulations of) medicinal plants & herbs. now if you want & deem yourself fit to, you may in your personal capacity challenge for evidence those some of the top brains in the field who devised these & on whose guidance the patient was put on the regimen of pre per & post-operative periods of medicinal care; not (through) me.

the patient was discharged the very next day (amazing i think, given his age..but possible also probably due to his disciplined lifestyle & thus resilience already), and was under observation for overall the next 6 months, during which time am sure he must've been subjected to multiple clinical/lab tests nonetheless.
since many docs were surprised (and skeptical) & enthusiastic about such a procedure & its positive outcome, expressing desire about research to be taken forward on this, i suppose there would've been some follow-up studies which am sadly not aware of. as i said, the best recourse would be to directly contact the hospital itself or/and the concerned doc(s) if one is genuinely curious & interested. dr yadav particularly has some interviews & videos of his on youtube so i believe he must not be unapproachable over mail/social media. heck, had i been in india in his city now i would've myself probably sought his appointment on the pretext of urological consultation (am prone anyway to kidney stones) & then asked about this to him.

I asked in a group here's what people in urology field said- prophylactic antibiotics is strongly recommended in TURP, the commonly done prostate surgery.Type can be dependent on the urine status and culture reports if applicable.
This could be the reason further studies were not done since it will be very difficult to get an ethics clearance for such a study. Plus you will be under a lot of pressure from your peers in this field. There will be more than one team involved in treating such a patient and modern medicine doctors in general will be sceptical towards such an approach.

 

[Kilroyquasar]

If he received anaesthesia he already received a cocktail of allopathic drugs

understandable. cant/wont comment on the other part but the report has been emphatic in stating more than once that while the patient was administered spinal anaesthesia, at no time or stage of the procedure were any 'antibiotics' given to him (other allopathic drugs? dont know if they were given to him..although he has had a history of allopathic drugs generally not suiting him, so, cant say) in pre per (4h-duration) or post-surgery period and the patient behaved normally, and that the post-surgery period was uneventful and recovery was faster than usually seen. after the procedure the normal routines were followed & some pain was experienced by him but he refused to take analgesics or any allopathic drugs for it (given his constitution's severe reactions) & continued with his ayurvedic medication for pain-management for the next couple of days.

 

[Mr.J]

Nice.. remembering what Mark Twain said and withdrawing from this conversation..good luck

Dude, I applaud you for engaging for so long. I've taken approach of just blocking people like these. There's no point in engaging with antivaxxers, climate change deniers, right-wingers etc.

 

[TEUser2K1]

@Mr.J
Mentioned this several of times here, I have vaccination certificate of 3 Pfizer mRNA vaccines, which I took earlier than most others.
Nobody is rumouring against vaccines here, its necessary, but there should've been better ones, more studies and transparency.
That is why there is court cases all over the world, Wondering whether you blame everyone taking these companies to court as antivaxers.
At the end, it should benefit people, not chronic vested interests those look purely at money and power.

Regarding climate change, pro-environment, anti-pollution stance, you can check dozens of comments from this user-id where I stand. Always were pro-humane stance about pollution-less food, damn sure about conserving nature sometimes even going against corporate interests, etc.

This way of misunderstanding, caricaturing or stymieing others or other's ideas does not stand good.