Front loading or top loading washing machine?
- Thread starter DrkLord
- Start date
blr_p
Level N
Why don't you get some washing soda and test how much is needed to soften water?
The idea is to find how much washing soda to add to reduce hardness by 100 ppm as an experiment. You can scale up
Fill a bucket with 5 litres of borewell water and measure the hardness.
Ideally, the water should be body temperature to simulate a warm wash. This will be the upper limit of soda's softening ability.
Now add 10 gm (two teaspoons) of washing soda. Stir it up and let it sit for five minutes. Measure your hardness.
If it does not reduce by 100 add another teaspoon and test until it drops 100 ppm
Post how many teaspoons of washing soda it took
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Kaleen Bhaiya
Level H
Are you saying this for treating the hard water or to remove the limescale and normal maintenance of the machine in general?
This one for limescale and other deposits prevention. It doesn't removes any dissolved salts.it works for me since my apartment water supply has 550-620tds. I have never used any water softener..
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Level N
The product he linked to is for maintenance. Calgon can be used to soften water. That's its job. These are the tabs (bit sceptical about the product at the price, as it goes for 15 pounds in the UK)
The second option is this liquid softener by Blueoxy. Another liquid by Zimmer Auframen is here
The third option is a powder by CERO
Those are your commercial options to soften water.
Now, if you use one half cap of CERO or one cap of Blueoxy/Zimmer in a warm 5L of your borewell water then by how many ppm does it reduce hardness?
Neither product mentions this important point anywhere so you have to test it with your water to decide on feasibility.
If you notice the ingredients for both products are polycarboxylates. This is the new formula that replaced phosphates.
A fourth option is the original Calgon formula described in this patent from 1935 that uses SHMP which is available
SHMP is non-precipitating and close to neutral pH unlike washing soda
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Kaleen Bhaiya
Level H
For borewell, its 2:42 mins and for corporation its 1:21 mins.
It's the plastic I am more concerned about. My usage will be very less that means water will be water will be in the plastic container for long dissolving into the water. I already have a Milton 22L BPA free water can so can store the water in there even for longer duration.
So I tested with Ariel TL powder for any reduction in hardness. It didn't. Same as 575ppm.
Water used- 5L borewell.
Powder- I didn't have a scoop. So I used a bottle similar to semen collection container and filled half bottle with detergent. It did foam very well. Now I don't know how much would be the quantity with the container but it seems to get the job done. Maybe because its a TL powder hence more foam. I might have to try with a FL powder to see if there are any differences.
Another issue it seems is that being an old building, the wiring is not that capable to support high wattage machines. The electrician told me max look for 1500W machine. I have a 1500W electric rod heater and it works fine. IFB doesn't mention the wattage of their machines, atleast for FL.
I will soon be opening a new thread for this soon as soon as I get my hands on the TDS meter.
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Level N
That's faster than my overhead tank which took over three minutes to fill 20L.
So for a FL wash, your borewell will complete in 40 s and for a rinse, it will take 2 minutes to fill. I think that should be ok.
I started up the LG empty, and set a program but turned off the water tap. It threw an IE error around 3m30. I started the stopwatch after the load sensing finished and I could hear the inlet relay valve engage.
@lockhrt999 can you try the same with your Sammy and time how long it takes to throw a similar error?
According to your manual on pg.52 Sammy calls it a 4C error.
That happened with the LG too. The drain pump started and the power button would not do anything so I just powered it off from the outlet.
What temperature was the water? ideally, body temperature is what you want. Unless you have a thermometer you will have to use your hand. Warm water but not hot,
That shake test can only be done with soap. I think the idea with that test is mainly for bathing. The results are misleading if you use a detergent that will foam even in hard water.
When washing clothes, the foam does not matter. The problem is the hard water ions will embed themselves in your clothes. Unless they are either sequestered or better still swapped out then your clothes will eventually get stiff. Whites will become dull and colours will look faded.
Aren't there any 16A power sockets in your apartment?
A max of 1,500W is for 6A plug outlets. You can't plug in a washing machine with a heater into those outlets.
My LG's heater as well as geysers need 2kW. That is around 8A. Nowhere near 16A but are connected to a 16A socket.
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will do.
Kaleen Bhaiya
Level H
How's Protecta liquid from IFB? Does it help in reducing the water hardness? Never saw anyone mention about it, nor any google link came up when searching for hard water softner.
The wires are small in thickness hence the 1500W. He told me that if your rod is working fine then so should your machine. Just don't run both the machine and the rod together as both are getting the connection from the kitchen board.
I am going to get the new machine from IFB tomorrow. Can anyone help with the models here? They have me confused.
But this wattage thing has thrown in more uncertainty. What if the FL machine doesn't run or trips my meter. Or should I go for a TL machine? I was under impression that a FL uses less water hence less electric load to heat the water(when needed)or function in general. This could change everything.
I have installed two of them, one for the rod, other for the washing machine. The electric rod is in kitchen and I have extended the 16A socket from the kitchen mainboard. Earlier, it did trip my meter after using for two days. The electrician said that it is mostly due to rod as it consumes high wattage. He replaced my old fuse near the meter with a new one and it has been working fine for now.
The wires are small in thickness hence the 1500W. He told me that if your rod is working fine then so should your machine. Just don't run both the machine and the rod together as both are getting the connection from the kitchen board.
The electrician has extended a wire from a kitchen socket to washing machine 16A socket. What is the average wattage for a 7kg machine?
I am going to get the new machine from IFB tomorrow. Can anyone help with the models here? They have me confused.
But this wattage thing has thrown in more uncertainty. What if the FL machine doesn't run or trips my meter. Or should I go for a TL machine? I was under impression that a FL uses less water hence less electric load to heat the water(when needed)or function in general. This could change everything.
Wouldn't the Oxyclean or Zimmer Auframen do the job of treating the Calcium, Magnesium when added during the rinse cycle? Assuming it does for hardwater since its not mentioned as you said.
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blr_p
Level N
I don't see the word softener in the description anywhere. It's a scale inhibitor. Great for the machine. But does nothing for your clothes as it does not soften the water.
This 'small in thickness' bit is the concerning part. Can those wires handle 16A or not? You cannot add a 16A outlet to a wire designed for 6A !!!
Pull out a 6A outlet and check the thickness of its wires. Are they the same thickness as the ones you connected to your 16A?
ok
2.1kW for the heater
I thought Samsung was an option for FL. Why are you looking at IFB for front loaders?
I'd put off getting a machine until your water issues are resolved. You're not ready for it yet.
We don't know as yet whether additives alone will be sufficient or not for your hardness.
It needs to run the heater at 2.1 kW. A warm wash means it comes on for maybe five minutes depending on your borewell water temperature. A hot wash means it will run for twenty minutes. Now you will NEED to run a boil wash EVERY MONTH for maintenance and that will run the heater for maybe forty minutes.
Why don't you try boiling water with that heater of yours and see how your fuse holds up? Time how long your heater takes to boil a 20L bucket of water.
Blue oxy, and Zimmer will do that but you need to test the reduction in hardness they produce. We don't know the figure and needs to be checked first.
How much to reduce by 100 ppm will give you x grams/cap fulls
600 to 500 does not mean you can wash anything. You want to get it down to 200. This means x times 4 is the amount of the additive to use to reduce hardness from 600 to 200.
How long will the additive last at that rate and How much will the cost be per wash of using this additive?
Bear in mind this is a recurring cost. Every wash requires it
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Kaleen Bhaiya
Level H
I can't check now since calling the electrician will mean more visiting charges. As far as I know, the yellow coloured wires were for kitchen socket. The socket was small so it was for 6A. He told me to ensure load is upto 1500W, not above.
I will try to check since I still have some 16A wire left behind from yesterday's work. I do intend to ask the retailer for the max wattage of the machine I choose.
Then how about for a 6kg FL. Or should I go for a TL machine if that reduces the power load since the "wiring component" is beyond my control. Or which category of machine should I go for to ensure it fits into 1500W category. I will have to scale down on the capacity part to ensure it doesn't breach the "1500 limit."
Service. I don't know how the service is for Samsung in my area. With IFB, I can atleast be assured of some reliability since it has 4y warranty, 10 year component availability. Also, it seems FL has more power consumption requirement as per the link here. The heating component will be used moderately in monsoon and to a greater extent in winters. Despite that, Tub clean will heat water at 90C so it will breach the 1500W limit. I just want to be safe with this aspect.
Time is a constraint here mate. I am about to join a new organisation. Also going to my aunt's place everytime is not feasible. I have to get a machine regardless of the constraints posed by the water and wiring.
Will washing soda work regardless of the water hardness? The only fallout with higher soda use will be increase in limescale production which would mean increase in usage of the descaler, right? But atleast it will ensure that there are no buildup on the clothes due to Ca, Mg.
I wished I had more time to experiment and see what works the best here. Maybe after I get the machine, I could try to do that.
I agree that the ion-exchange method was the best of the alternative provided. But then you also have to see that the recurring costs/maintenance are very high. Also, this is a rented accommodation so I don't have the freedom to carry out so many changes. Maybe if I get my own house, then it would make more sense to invest in such devices.
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Level N
That means it's a 6A socket. You can't run a washing machine with a heater on it.
Not possible.
You're talking about IFB the company. What about IFB service?
Get the electrician back
You will have to go to your aunt's place until some basic questions are answered. Failing that find someone nearby that will do your laundry until such time.
You need to test that. And as I said pH is too high and not good for you or the machine.
You can't get any machine until you resolve your electrical issues.
The only recurring cost for ion exchange is salt. How much is that? 1kg for Rs.20. You will need pure salt that does not have dust. I've seen people use tata salt. No rock salt as that can come with mud. You will get about 3-5 washes and then have to regenerate with a quarter kilo based on 600 ppm of hardness. About 200-250 litres of soft water
It weighs 5kg. You need to drill two holes in the wall to hold it up. That is not a major thing to do in a rented accommodation. When you leave they just putty those two holes up.
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All FLs are going have same peak power consumption of 2 to 2.1k watts. If you buy TL with heater then it'll also have same peak power consumption. I think this limit is governed by some ISO standard. Anyway this peak power consumption lasts only for a few minutes. Rest of the time, the power consumption goes down to 50 to 150 watts.
If your 6A circuit is done with 1.5 mm sq copper cable, which is a general standard, it can handle 2.1k watt load. Would I suggest it? No, because this is public forum. Would I do it myself, if there was no other way? yes, with my eyes closed. I would change the 6A socket to 16A though.
You can run FLs without heater too. The peak power consumption won't go above 200 or 300 watts.
After starting a cycle,
22s for drain
+35s for load calculation
+ 3m08s till the 4C error.
@Kaleen Bhaiya If you aren't buying LG because of its longer wash cycle then you may want to consider Samsung. Daily wash cycle is only 1:10 hr long. Cotton is about 1:27. If I run a cycle with all the frills like soaking, extra soiled, extra rinse, prewash etc. the total time doesn't go above 2:30. I never needed to run a cycle with all these features as I'm totally satisfied with regular daily wash or cotton cycle. Warranty is 3 years and you can always buy extended warranty from a third party. The drum's spider is known to break after a few years but at least it's replaceable as the tub isn't sealed. Been using it only for a few months but everything is working like a textbook.
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Level N
So he should be ok with a boil wash and those cables then? good
What I think he has done is extended wire from a 6A socket and put a 16A outlet on it. Sounds so dodgy.
Sounds like it's slightly less than mine or maybe identical. I don't think the Sammy will time out with his borewell water.
What we need now is someone with a 1 bar pressure machine to try. Yours is 0.5 bar and mine is 0.3
That's interesting because the LG extends the cycle based on load. I don't use any other options. Just Cottons 40 and time taken with a full load approaches 3h (says 2h30) with a third rinse cycle thrown in for good measure. No complaints. Otherwise, with lighter loads it's 1:10 which in reality is closer to 1h30. The machine only does estimates not too accurate with time.
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Kaleen Bhaiya
Level H
Agreed. I went to the IFB Point near by and all FL had a peak of 2000W.
IFB TL had max requirement of 1450W for all their models upto 9kgs.
Yup. Had this in mind. But wanted to be cautious. I might be stressing the wires and I don't know how old this building or its wires are. Builder was a big time kanjoos, but I won't blame him coz this area was a village back in 1991.
Summers mein temperatures easily reach 45C. Water will be super hot if I dare to run it at noon, without heater.
From the discussion I had with my electrician, he said that we will need to put a new wire of 2mm from the DP. From what I am assuming, he might have put a 1.5mm black cable(containing red, black and some other colour cable) from a 6A switchboard to a 16A switch. But I am a total noob when it comes to electronics so I don't know what would be thickness of my existing copper wire.
I honestly don't know how is the service for Samsung here in Nagpur. Unfortunately none in my immediate family has any Samsung machine, FL. My aunt has a TL but that motor feels so helpless that it cannot agitate the water to move the clothes. But that's different technology. All machines wash clothes, it's the service that matters to me.
Seems like it.
Honestly, both seems same to me. The image below is the leftover of the wire used to connect the 16A plug.
And the sodium resin which needs to be changed every 6 months.
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blr_p
Level N
No, where did you hear that
Every 6 months is backwash and removing clogs if they occur. You could do that yourself once you see how they do it
This is a video of changing the resin after a couple of years. That is the bigger bathroom softener, not the smaller washing machine softener. He must be on the outskirts of Banglore. The brown coloured water is iron and the black residue is manganese. Both are common to find in underground water. He had to change the resin because there was way too much manganese in the water. I don't know if the resin can be rescued in his case. The service guy said to change it every year. He would say that for business reasons but the guy changed it after two years.
The resin is small plastic beads. I think you can clean them yourself and get more life out of them. They get scaled so can be descaled. This is not mentioned anywhere but I've seen it being recommended for larger models whose resin life is a couple of decades so I don't know why it's even necessary to replace resin every two years.
Imagine if you did the cleaning yourself after six months, if the resin was cleaned might it last longer? this guy didn't know that and did not do it. I think it's good to be able to assemble and dissemble it yourself as you will understand the mechanism better and be able to fix any issues that might arise.
I was chatting with someone who said he was getting a salty taste in the water and after repeated calls to the Kent people all they did was regenerate and then told him that is how it is. Nonsense. There should be very little salt taste in the water. If there is a salty taste then it means a blockage has occurred in the drain valve so the salty water cannot go out or a lump of salt or more has found its way into the resin and will just have to dissolve in its own time. A disassembly would expose the problem but the Kent guys never did it so I told him to do it himself and not regret the purchase.
When dealing with water quality you will invariably bump into aquarium enthusiasts. Their use case is slightly different but the principles are the same. I was chatting with a guy and he said he was using those same beads for his aquarium. Something like this
What does the salt do?
This 4 to 8h to regenerate is interesting. Because the regeneration process is much faster in a softener maybe 15 minutes at most. I wonder if that adequately saturates the beads or whether it is better to let the salt solution just sit in the resin beads longer before draining it out. Would you get a better bang for the buck, more soft water for the same quantity of salt ? it's an idea.
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Gauge of the wire is written on the wire itself. Usually, 1.5 mmsq gauge wire is laid for upto 10A circuitry. Next is 2.5 mmsq. And it's used for 16A circuitry. After that, 4 mmsq is used for geysers and 2 ton + ACs. Most of the electricians are uneducated folks. So everything in electricals is build with an overkill mindset. Most of the appliances that come with 16A plug can run fine on 1.5 mmsq. too. Having said that, if your building is old then I don't think it will have 1.5 mmsq wire for 6A circuit. I don't think you have concealed electricals considering the age of building. If that's the case then why don't you lay pair of 2.5 mmsq wires from the DP to the washing machine? It's totally doable and it's easy job for an electrician. It might destroy some wall paint around the pattis though.
If he's taking 16A switchboard extension from behind the 6A switchboard, meaning direct wire patching then it's workable solution (considering wires can handle it). But if he's making a plain 16A extension board which you then plug into 6A socket using 6A plug then it's a no-no from me. 6A sockets are bad at handling load. 3 decade old socket will be much worse. Just make sure you aren't directly involving 6A socket.
Boeing has a service center for maintaining 747s in Nagpur. Samsung konse diwar ki chipkali?
You just uploaded these photos. This is what I was saying, as taking wires from behind the 6A switch board. This will work for the time being. I think that thick black cable is 3 core 2.5 mmsq. Gauge should be written on it. Just don't run multiple heavy things at the same time. There's a way to identify if you are running thinner gauge cables for the loads. If the tube lights in your house dim slightly when you run the water heater rod then yeah the wires are thin. Usually, that's the worst that can happen. Houses don't burn down.Honestly, both seems same to me. The image below is the leftover of the wire used to connect the 16A plug.
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Kaleen Bhaiya
Level H
Concealed as in behind the walls? No, it has the casing which used to be there back in the old days, like using a pipe or a rectangular casing. Mine has the latter.
That is what he intends to do. Actually he told me for wattage above 1500, it would be better to lay the wire from the DP. They mostly do it for AC's as a dedicated line to avoid issues. I was of the opinion that appliances have become energy efficiency that they don't need 2kW to operate or even for heating. Heck, even my water heater rod rates at 1500W works fine, so I thought I won't need it. That bubble was bursted yesterday when the person at IFB showed that all TL's have max wattage at 1450 and all FL's have 2000W. I had done a similar arrangement back at my Mumbai residence so I thought this would work too. Offcourse, that building is of recent built.
The landlord should be thankful if the next tenant will be someone like me. This area is going to boom like anything in the next 5-10 years.
Haha!! Yeah. But I had a terrible experience with Samsung, especially their in house technician. We had purchased a CRT and a refrigerator back in 2003 and it was working good. The TV started giving issues around 2015-16. The Sammy technician literally spoilt my tv. He first said the motherboard's gone, then picture tube m, then this that. He was unable to diagnose what was the issue. We didn't mind paying the money but the diagnosis should be proper. Finally we gave up on him and got it repaired from a local TV guy and it worked.
Even though my Dad swore to never get any Sammy product, after hard convincing we got another Samsung Qled TV.
Another thing was that TV's bass system went bad pretty early. We didn't repair it was another thing but you don't expect functionality to get damaged so early.
This is for TV, don't know how it will hold true for washing machine too.
The IFB guys are still clinging on to the belt and pulley system. He said that it helps then to replace a part rather than the entire drum if any part goes bad. I still don't know how IFB intends to keep the parts for this long(10 years) especially when technology changes so rapidly. I will be hard pressing them for an assurance.
From what I could capture of the leftovers, it said 1.5x3 something.
Yes, my led light dims slightly when the rod is powered on. But wouldn't using a 2kW on such wires be like pushing it too much. While it may not burn down, but the fuse near the meter might get damaged as it happened last time.
Anyways, called the electrician back. Hoping to get it done by today itself.
blr_p
Level N
Take note
Have found IFB's manuals to be the best in the industry. User friendly and informative
Have found IFB's manuals to be the best in the industry. User friendly and informative
Good, this is the proper thing to do. Make sure he tests the earthing. While he's at it, get him to check all the plug points in the house for proper earthing and polarity
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Yes. I understood. Your edit with photos came after my last post.
There's one thing. Usable heat production is always power heavy. Doesn't matter what application is, or how efficient it is. There's never going to be a 50W water heater ever. Your 1500W heater rod is probably the most efficient application in your house. It's same with usable kinetic motion. It also needs a lot of power. On the opposite end of spectrum, usable light and sound need negligible power.
We have an identical story. Our TV stayed broken for a few years before we sold it off. Still using the fridge though. Experience isn't that great. I have seen newer samsung TVs don't last that long either. Friend's TV has backlight blotches issue. I also saw same issue at a place we rented. So far I have experienced only 2 samsung tvs and both had issues.
Right. That's 3 core cable containing 3x 1.5 mmsq wires. It'll work for now.
I kid you not but 99% India is like this mate. Yes, it's not ideal but I don't see 99% of the country burnt down.
That's the whole purpose of the fuse. You may want to replace your DP and Fuse with mini MCB like this. Either this mini MCB or you can also use regular MCB. Usually 32A breakers are used at mains but 16A-20A would be better for the old wiring. And yeah, as @blp_r suggested do check the earthing. Earthing degrades with time. For a 3 decade old building, it would have gone totally bad unless it was renewed.