dafreaking
Level H
Cheers mate. Will keep this in mind.
Front loading or top loading washing machine?
- Thread starter DrkLord
- Start date
Kaleen Bhaiya
Level H
Just curious as to why no one is talking about Henko/Henkel detergent? Aren't they good?
Regarding my inability to post the drum pic for IFB, can't find anyone to help me with tilting the machine and take a pic of it. The IFB Point is in the entirely opposite direction of my office so unable to go there for the drum sizes you needed.
Wasn't it already known to us that LG uses unsealed drums? That was one of the reason why I got LG as my first machine.
Regarding my inability to post the drum pic for IFB, can't find anyone to help me with tilting the machine and take a pic of it. The IFB Point is in the entirely opposite direction of my office so unable to go there for the drum sizes you needed.
blr_p
Level N
How are you finding it ? if it says for front loader then great. I told you the perfume was too strong for me.
The Henkel association ended a while back it just Jyothi Labs now. I wrote them some time back about one of their detergents that advertised 'oxi power' and never got a reply.
Because @benryu was under the impression that LG's are sealed, these days.
Now it has been demonstrated not to be the case
Don't tilt just lay it flat on its side. Easier and safer. The side is flat.
The Back has a hump so the side is better
Given the relatively higher prices IFB charges for their machines, I believe their spare parts availability claim. Clearly, IFB is a company that believes its machines can be maintained.
Why then would IFB seal their tubs? I posted a video of a 9yr old IFB in the maintenance thread which was not sealed.
I'd not be surprised if this is the case even today. I don't believe what that sales guy told you because he is not supposed to know any of this stuff.
Yeah, IFB had an association with Bosch but that ended over a decade ago.
We know Bosch seals their tubs. What about IFB? you tell us
Attachments
Last edited:
Thanks. For starters I have bought 1 kg of Surf Excel Matic. But it didnt come with a scoop
Do they provide scoops with larger packs? Wife is pushing to use liquids though.How would you know if you have added the right amount of detergent? Also, everyone in family are suggesting to use cold wash instead of 40C hot water as that may reduce the life of clothes and dull out the colours.
LG guy mentioned to use only Surf or Ariel and nothing else. He also said pick either one in detergent or liquid and use it without changing. Why not Tide?
Since its my first FL, was surprised at the price differential. Because the difference in FL and TL isnt much but usage and maintenance is way higher.
My demo guy didnt suggest any stand. Just got him to level it properly. He only suggested to descale once in every 30 washes. Mentioned that LG sells descaling powder. Costs 500 for 3 packets.
No scoop on bigger packs either. You have to weigh yourself. Even though 60 grams is a standard dose, I can get away with 30 grams fine.For starters I have bought 1 kg of Surf Excel Matic. But it didnt come with a scoop
This is summer. You might already have 30C+ water coming out of your tap already. Adding 10C more isn't going to ruin the clothes. Read the labels on the clothes.
Tide didn't make powder for front load until very recently. You can't use normal Tide as that will ruin the machine. Tide is a budget brand of ariel. Ariel is Audi. Surf excel is BMW and Tide is Folkswagon. From my personal experience, both Surf and Ariel are equally good. Only difference for me is that I need to use extra rinse cycle for Ariel.
Maintenance is high with FL, how? I think it's near about same.
Any descaling powder will do. And you can get it online too. Descaling after 30-40 wash sounds correct.
The water is actually cold in the morning here. I still use a geyser for my bath. Even in peak summer i don't think it hits 30. I maybe wrong since i never measured.
FL is definitely higher running cost when compared to TL. The detergent itself costs higher and the extra power consumption. Water requirement is higher on TL but for us in Chennai we don't pay by the litre so strictly in monetary terms it's indifferent.
FL is definitely higher running cost when compared to TL. The detergent itself costs higher and the extra power consumption. Water requirement is higher on TL but for us in Chennai we don't pay by the litre so strictly in monetary terms it's indifferent.
Current price of Surf 6kg for TL is 1,125 and for FL is 1,240. 10% difference yes.
FL doesn't have extra power consumption. I have measured it. If you don't use heating then it'll be cheaper to run than any old top loader. I can bet my real money on that. If you skip heating, it'll hardly add a couple of units to your electric bill. If I don't use heater on my FL, it consumes about 0.05 unit of electricity.
You may wash clothes in the evening as the water will be warmer.
blr_p
Level N
Why don't you measure it then? because its really important in terms of wash quality and machine longevity.
Use a food thermometer or a TDS meter that can also record temperature.
^These cheapo food thermometers are slow to react so let it sit in a glass of water for at least 10-20 seconds. The one I got back in 2015 for Rs.3k odd reacts in seconds.
The whole point of having a machine with a heater is you can do your laundry whenever and not have to confine it to fixed times.
So what? my power consumption is 15 units per month. minimum of four washes per week.
Every fourth wash is a 60-degree wash which with my measurements is closer to 52. With a tub clean or maintenance boil wash thrown in.
Take a unit price of Rs.10 which is Rs.150 per month. Not going to break the bank.
Otherwise install a solar heater with a thermostatic valve, which will bring down your heating costs and give you a better result since even your rinses will be warm.
Not worth the hassle for me since over half the year is overcast so not a lot of 'free' heating is going to happen.
They used to but they are lousy and not graduated. Part of being economical is using measured doses. Getting the family to understand that and sticking to it to avoid overdosing or other mishaps that will over time reduce the life of the machine.Thanks. For starters I have bought 1 kg of Surf Excel Matic. But it didnt come with a scoop
The first on the left is from some medicine we had years ago. It's graduated and I use it to measure out liquids. 15ml with the microfiber loads and 30ml with a full load
The second one comes with the detergent or used to. Filled to the brim it weighed 70 gm of Surf excel. I used a marker to indicate half full.
Third is some Amul scoop I found, it measures out to 10gm
Last is a scoop that came with a 200gm packet of Vanish I think. The 400gm Vanish packet includes a larger scoop which I find is good only for making you use more than needed.
So what you need is to figure out a dose that works and then a scoop of that size and you use just that one scoop full with every load.
With some clothes that helps. Make sure it's front loader certified and use a measuring cup. Not the one they give you as it's harder to gauge. I dislike liquids because they don't flow as easy as powders. So I measure out 30ml and pour it into the drawer. Then I have to leave that cup upside down in there for at least a good minute until another up to 10ml flows out of it. Powders are so much easier to dose, pour and go.
Your clothes come out clean, there is minimal foam in the machine during the wash. Though this can be misleading as anything fluffy like towels will create more foam than thinner fabrics. As I said earlier start with half the dose with a full load and then see whether you are happy with the result. Your water hardness plays a role here so unless you measure that I can't tell you more. My dose of 30gm is for the water hardness I have.
Your family has never done 40-degree washes before. So how do they know this? they heard it somewhere.
40 is warm, not hot. Lukewarm is 30 and hot is 50-60. If you can measure the temperature of the water, stick yours and their fingers in various temperatures and see how it feels.
Now, would you prefer to bathe or do your dishes in cold water? how well would that temperature water clean compared to say warm water? for the effort expended. Human sebum only melts at 30 degrees so 30 and no lower is the bare minimum to wash your clothes and expect to have body oils removed. You get the point.
To remove stains takes enzymes and Ariel & Surf have them. These enzymes work best at body temperature not cold. See here Take note that you can't wash natural fibres like wool or silk in Surf or Ariel or the enzymes will eat the fabric and create holes. Only cotton or other cellulose-based fabrics. Enzymes were the innovation that allowed to wash at a lower temperature like 40 instead of 60 as seen in this advert from the 80s. No Tide in the UK, only Ariel.
When I measured the temperature inside the machine, I discovered 40 was closer to 35 in the washer. Depending on the tap temperature, it might take up to ten minutes to heat the water to that temperature and then it stops. If the wash cycle is 2h30 you will be washing with that temperature water for the entire wash cycle. The heater does not come on and go off to maintain the temperature. It's a one-shot thing at the start. After such a long wash the temperature drops by five degrees.
Reducing the life of clothes is a function of how rough the washing is. A front loader is gentler than a machine with an agitator. You should match the clothes type to the appropriate program. Mixes should be washed in the right program and not the cotton program which will be more vigorous. Any delicate fabrics should be put in a delicates bag.
Colour fading can be for a number of reasons.
- The dye used was cheap and wear and tear lightens sooner than better quality garments.
- Most often it's because the wrong detergent was used. One with oxygen bleach or a detergent that was too harsh. In India, almost no detergent comes with oxygen bleach other than Vanish. And that applies to powders. Liquids by definition cannot have any oxygen bleach. So thinking liquid is safer than powders on this basis is not valid.
- too little detergent was used and mineral build-up occurs making the clothes dull. The same applies to detergents that are not very good quality too or not designed for front loader.
- the biggest culprit here I find is care labels by garment companies. The standard they use is cold wash and gentle. This is not enough and as good as useless for the majority of clothes. The garment manufacturers are only legally obligated to tell you a safe way to clean the clothes. Not the best way. And the best way is a warm wash regardless of the fabric with the correct program selected.
He's not aware Tide has a FL variant out now. He is thinking of regular Tide. Having tried out Tide, Ariel & Surf my preference is to go back to Surf.
Good guy. If it's acidic it will do the job, otherwise use 100gm of citric acid.
And tell your family not to use fabric softener. Better for the clothes, the machine and your sanity.
Last edited:
dafreaking
Level H
Machine was installed today afternoon. Will add some more details over the next few days
Kaleen Bhaiya
Level H
Won't using citric acid damage the rubber gasket? I did see LG mention to use 100 gm citric acid mixed in hot water and then use it. Can I do the same for my IFB?
blr_p
Level N
No, if the material the gasket is made out of is Ethylene propylene rubber (EPDM). Korean patent wth the exact formula
And I am recommending you use that much citric acid once a month in your machine with 95 degree tub clean for your 600 ppm water
eFunda: O-Ring Materials Compatibile with Chemical Vinegar
www.efunda.com
However, Vinegar that everybody recommends is not so great for the seals on a regular basis
Where did you see that?
A tub clean is 15 litres of water. Same as is used for a rinse cycle. Something I recommend @benryu do is run an empty cottons cycle on cold and then let the wash water empty into a bucket and measure that volume. Then do the same with a rinse cycle. Collect that and see how much volume. This way you will understand the volumes of water used.
The dilution works out to less than 1% concentration solution. Some think this isn't enough. If you have not descaled in over a year then yes. Go ahead and use a quarter kilo. In a front loader.
Now in a top loader where tub clean fills to the top with almost 60L of water. 100gm gives a dilution of only 0.15%
How much descaling can you expect at such a low concentration? That is too low to be of any use. I would say use 200gm of citric acid minimum. Probably have to add some sulphamic acid to the mix or use a specialised product that can account for the increased volume of water used.Attachments
Last edited:
Kaleen Bhaiya
Level H
blr_p
Level N
They are using Vitamin C as a chelator. You need 200 grams a go. How affordable is that if you check the prices of Vitamin C. Rs.400 for 100gm. You can get cheaper but it will be adulterated with something else. So if you want to use a chelator use Aluminium Sulphate, and you only need 1 part of it to 100 parts of Citric Acid.
1 gm for every 100gms of citric acid.
This is interesting. To understand the damage that can be caused we need to know what kind of plastic is used in washing machine trays. AFAICT there are two types of resin used, PP and ABS
How well does either stand up to citric acid? PP is fine but ABS is not. See attached using this website
That is the underside of my detergent drawer. See the PP ? that means it will be fine. Either that or look for a recycling symbol triangle with the number 5
Which machines will not be? top loaders and semi-automatics. Because when I search for ABS plastic I see lots of semi-automatics and some top loaders. I have to assume the entire washing tub is ABS if its a semi-automatic. I guess that means no citric acid for you @Rockfella
This will not be the case for top loader inner plastic tubs which I expect to be PP.
Now I know why @6pack 's impeller developed a problem with the descaler he used which does contain citric acid. It's most likely using ABS plastic for the impeller.
How to tell if ABS or PP plastic has been used in top loader impellers ?? Not without burning a little shaving of it and smelling the smoke. ABS smells like marigold apparently.
There is no problem with front loaders as the inner tub is PP, and I would expect the same for top loader inner tub as well. But the issue is the impeller was ABS which means you just use vinegar to descale instead of citric acid. Trouble with vinegar is its weaker and you need to use more of it. Like quarter of a litre. See attached. Vinegar does not harm ABS plastic. Unless a more effective alternative can be found that won't harm ABS then vinegar it is @6pack
Attachments
Last edited:
Kaleen Bhaiya
Level H
How do I know if the gasket in my case is made from EPDM? I don't think my manual made mention of this when I went through it yesterday.
blr_p
Level N
Google for what material washing machine gaskets are made out of. The Korean patent is dated 2009. This kind of info you won't find in any manual at all.
You will have to find a spare IFB gasket, turn it inside out and look for codes. Go to the service centre and check it out. When you see a code. Take a pic.
Earlier I thought they were made from Buna-N Nitrile rubber but that is incorrect. Citric acid is fine with most o-ring materials. Natural rubber which would not be as durable scored a B grade or good.
Do you think IFB has come up with some new material here? doubtful. They would be using whatever the industry standard. EPDM is cheap. The gasket should be fine.
However other plastic parts might not be in IFB's case. This could explain why their descaler has no acidic pH.
The choice to use ABS over PP is cost-cutting I guess or ABS works out cheapest.
I don't see where IFB could be using ABS in a front loader. But a top loader has more possibilities as we found out in @6pack 's case. Which brand machine do you use @6pack ?
Last edited:
blr_p
Level N
This guy's way of identifying ABS is through sound. Emits a higher pitch when you knock it.
Non-destructive tests are always better.
Pretty sure if there is any ABS in a machine it's on the outside. Fascia or possibly detergent drawers for some brands. It's more prone to cracking if struck.
No way is it going to last inside a machine. Hoses are all PP too
Non-destructive tests are always better.
Pretty sure if there is any ABS in a machine it's on the outside. Fascia or possibly detergent drawers for some brands. It's more prone to cracking if struck.
No way is it going to last inside a machine. Hoses are all PP too
How did you conclude the bolded bit when it's not mentioned in the article you linked and the gasket would be exposed to citric acid when dissolved anyway.
Last edited:
Kaleen Bhaiya
Level H
blr_p
Level N
Ah, so when you can pay Rs.700 and get six times as much they will only sell you 250gm of this which you are supposed to use in one go. Am I right?
Why don't I see similar warnings from other manufacturers or is this only a Bosch problem? Others don't have a product to sell.
Same reason IFB recommends liquids for their machines and then you realise they don't sell powder detergent only liquid detergent.
With your 600ppm water, you need to descale once a month. No way is their descaler going to be affordable. People end up running it once a year. So scale builds up, it turns into a cement and that can be hard to remove later, at least not without using larger amounts of descaler per session than normal.
The magic number is 00311921, plug that into website of the company they outsourced this from and see attached for what the ingredients are. Having seen other descalers ingredients you can presume Bosch's own descaler is 90% citric acid with the remainder maleic and a pinch of the last one.
Seven years in my gasket looks brand new and there are no leaks in the machine. I don't know if that would have been the case if I had used vinegar instead of citric acid.
Something else citric acid is suitable for. Cleaning Toilet commodes. Western type. Put 50gms in stir the water so it dissolves and leave for a couple of hours. Brush a little after. Cleans well
In fact, pay attention to the rate at which scale builds up in the sinks and around the bathroom and that will give you an indication of what is going on inside your machine.
Attachments
Last edited: