Green Delhi? NGT cracks down on govt. diesel vehicles.

rdst_1 said:
My Masiji lives in New Delhi and she suffers from really bad respiratory stuff. You would think that someone like her would really be happy with this new rule. But the thing is that last .
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Please relocate her to less polluted city if possible, ASAP.
These people (Traffic Police & state govt) can't enforce traffic rules properly ; enforcing environment friendly rules like Odd, Even formula will be full of loop holes & chaos. I was going through the exemptions to the odd/even rule, which means only singles staying in Delhi with a single car will be affected.
The recent SC order will be much easy to implement but it still won't be able to curb the pollution levels because private diesels above 2L engine capacity is a minority. As such private diesel vehicles (used by individuals) causing pollution is a insignificant percentage.

Unless they improve the fuel quality, roadside dust, traffic congestion & construction site pollution the particulate matter isn't going to come down significantly. There's no positive changes in this regard. Let's see, fingers crossed ; Kejrivalji deserves a second term if he tackles this issue honestly & effectively (without running & blaming the center).
 
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drkrack said:
Please relocate her to less polluted city if possible, ASAP.
These people (Traffic Police & state govt) can't enforce traffic rules properly ; enforcing environment friendly rules like Odd, Even formula will be full of loop holes & chaos. I was going through the exemptions to the odd/even rule, which means only singles staying in Delhi with a single car will be affected.
The recent SC order will be much easy to implement but it still won't be able curb the pollution levels because private diesel above 2L capacity is a minority. As such private vehicles causing pollution is a insignificant percentage.

Unless they improve the fuel quality, roadside dust, traffic congestion & construction site pollution the particulate matter isn't going to come down significantly. There's no positive changes in this regard. Let's see, fingers crossed ; Kejrivalji deserves a second term if he tackles this issue honestly & effectively (without running & blaming the center).
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Actually, unless the government promotes other means of green transport like cycles etc, nothing would change. People in Delhi have enough funds to go for diesel cars even if the taxes are exponentially increased. Also, the government needs to check the burning of waste materials. People openly burn waste in the borders. The east blowing winds bring the pollutants to the state.[DOUBLEPOST=1450418280][/DOUBLEPOST]Also, we need to shift to ~50ppm sulphur fuels and gradually go to ~10 sulphur fuels. The government should encourage car manufacturers to include vapor eliminating mechanisms in various models, plus they should enforce total migration to bharat stage 4 asap!
 
People in Delhi have enough funds to go for diesel cars even if the taxes are exponentially increased.
This is what I don't get. If they have the cash, why not buy a petrol car. Its not like diesel is super cheap or petrol is hard to get.
 
harishmenace said:
People in Delhi have enough funds to go for diesel cars even if the taxes are exponentially increased.
This is what I don't get. If they have the cash, why not buy a petrol car. Its not like diesel is super cheap or petrol is hard to get.
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That question also bothered me when i first visited Delhi. Nearly everywhere I go i saw diesel motors. Having stayed there for some years I finally found the answer: Because they are cheapos. They like to spend minimum expenditure for maximum profit. One may argue that majority of the Indians are like this but Delhiites happen to set an even higher standard. They are ultra cheapos! They are also paranoid about petrol's availability and price fluctuations which used to plague the state once in a while. Its like even an increase by 2rs per litre more than the usual standard rate is killing them. Personally though I try to always get the more expensive Xtra Premium. :|
 
The difference between petrol and diesel entry level model id 1.2L. Wonder how many people even recover the difference before they decide to upgrade. This thinking ki Aapna kaam banta bhad me jaaye janta, will cost us because we are the janta.
 
harishmenace said:
This is what I don't get. If they have the cash, why not buy a petrol car.
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You can hear such comments from pretty much everyone who has never driven a diesel vehicle.

Diesel engines are more powerful and are easier to drive on typical indian roads. Ever seen cars stalling in bumper-to-bumper traffic near speed-bumps, potholes and U-turns? Low-end torque is very helpful in overcoming such situations.

Besides this technical understanding, how many petrol variants do you see in 5+ seater category? If you want to buy a big SUV for your large family, tell me which petrol version would you buy?

SC's limit on 2L diesel engines may force manufacturers to shift focus towards petrol versions. But can they match the power output of a 7-seater petrol engine in 1st gear with that of a diesel's - without compromising on fuel consumption?

SC's decision on large diesel engines wasn't meant to help kejri uncle or his mission to clean delhi's air. If you are living in Delhi and are observant of what's happening around you then you should know that SC has been contemplating on this issue for eons. For the benefit of whatsapp/facebook kids - SC didn't want rich (who drive big SUVs) to use fuel meant for industrial/agricultural purposes. This decision has nothing to do with pollution because there's no blanket ban on private diesel vehicles... cheers!

harishmenace said:
This thinking ki Aapna kaam banta bhad me jaaye janta, will cost us because we are the janta.
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Petrol vehicle owners also share the same attitude. Manufacturers can make petrol cars as powerful as their diesel variants but then the fuel efficiency will go out of the window and the environment-friendly-petrol-vehicle-owners will start cribbing. :p They'll ask for diesel engines. It's those petrol guys who created the demand for more powerful and efficient vehicles. (Technical info: A diesel engine is more fuel efficient than its petrol counterpart)

It's not that you are seeing diesel variants only from the last 5~6 years. There were ALWAYS few diesel engine options available for as long as I can remember. And they always used to be at least 1.5 lakhs costlier than the petrol variants. Diesel was far more CHEAPER back then. So, apart from easy finance, who created the need for diesel engines?
 
AFAIK, diesel produces pollutants which causes more smog than actual pollutants. smaller capacity two wheelers produce more pollutants and they run on petrol.

also read on team bhp that lower capacity diesel engines release green house gases equivalent to a larger capacity truck, so banning larger diesel engines might not be the best solution out there.

alongwith this i would have welcomed if the SC would have forced the government to adopt euro 6 emission standards throughout the country ASAP.

with the current status of BS-4 in metros and BS-3 emission norms in rest of the country, neither the manufacturers nor the petroleum companies look interested to upgrade their infra to cater to those demands.

those improvements in emission norms could actually help a lot.
 
^^ see, there are lots of things govt can do before they start harassing people.

in delhi's case, metro says that they can't handle extra load during those 15 days of even-odd trial. delhi police says that they are understaffed to keep a check on even-odd numbers, even if it's meant for just 15 days. DTC can't increase its capacity. clearly, the govt is asking delhi people to fend for themselves. schools cause largest amount of vehicular movement. no doubt, govt will shut down the schools during this period and make it look like that their experiment was successful.

world over, the even-odd rule is used to de-congest and i have no problem if the same happens in india. it allows people with emergencies etc to use their vehicles after paying some fees.

Superbad said:
also read on team bhp that lower capacity diesel engines release green house gases equivalent to a larger capacity truck, so banning larger diesel engines might not be the best solution out there.
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banning larger diesel engines was never meant to tackle the issue of air pollution.
 
iPwnz said:
That question also bothered me when i first visited Delhi. Nearly everywhere I go i saw diesel motors. Having stayed there for some years I finally found the answer: Because they are cheapos. They like to spend minimum expenditure for maximum profit. One may argue that majority of the Indians are like this but Delhiites happen to set an even higher standard. They are ultra cheapos! They are also paranoid about petrol's availability and price fluctuations which used to plague the state once in a while. Its like even an increase by 2rs per litre more than the usual standard rate is killing them. Personally though I try to always get the more expensive Xtra Premium. :|
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It's not the fuel efficiency or per Km cost that makes people buy a diesel vehicle. Diesel engines offer a great low end torque which is addictive ; it's pretty easy to drive in our traffic conditions. With current turbo diesels the the max power can be made available at a lower rpm than Petrol counterparts. If you haven't driven a diesel engine you'd probably never understand it.
M&M is contemplating to counter diesel engine ban soon. Improving the fuel & other measures have to be of paramount importance than imposing a ineffective ban.
Delhi govt should concentrate on diverting the traffic effectively to reduce the traffic jams, fuel burns a lot in bumper to bumper traffic.
The coming few days of trial and error methods by state govt is going to be horrible for residents of Delhi. Let's see.
 
drkrack said:
It's not the fuel efficiency or per Km cost that makes people buy a diesel vehicle. Diesel engines offer a great low end torque which is addictive ; it's pretty easy to drive in our traffic conditions. With current turbo diesels the the max power can be made available at a lower rpm than Petrol counterparts. If you haven't driven a diesel engine you'd probably never understand it.
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Have driven diesels from the humble Junkdica to the big German v6 diesels in the q7 and 530d. To me, they all suffer from one fatal flaw - turbo lag till you hit the power band and then all the torque and power sandwiched into the 2000-4000 rpm range. This makes driving them in traffic painful to me atleast especially when driving a manual transmission. The good autoboxes like zf and getrag counter this by having 8 gears. However there are some really bad examples of this issue in the 1St Gen cruze Mt and hyundai verna.
 
Chaos said:
Have driven diesels from the humble Junkdica to the big German v6 diesels in the q7 and 530d. To me, they all suffer from one fatal flaw - turbo lag till you hit the power band and then all the torque and power sandwiched into the 2000-4000 rpm range. This makes driving them in traffic painful to me atleast especially when driving a manual transmission. The good autoboxes like zf and getrag counter this by having 8 gears.
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That depends on how the vehicle is tuned. Some are tuned to have good low end torque.those are preferred by the folk who drive in the city.

Looking at the exceptions made,I, doubt if the situation would improve much.

Maybe good for analysis.but then what would be the comparative data available?

Because of the exceptions made there might be a case happening of too many taxis on the road.
 
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I personally prefer the linear acceleration provided by Petrol Engines myself, over the slightly unpredictable nature of the laggy low power diesel engines which make up the majority of the diesel vehicles in India. Although I was seriously considering buying a powerful diesel vehicle ever since I have moved to Himachal. The 1.6 S-Cross looks pretty sweet.
 
Chaos said:
Have driven diesels from the humble Junkdica to the big German v6 diesels in the q7 and 530d. To me, they all suffer from one fatal flaw - turbo lag till you hit the power band and then all the torque and power sandwiched into the 2000-4000 rpm range. This makes driving them in traffic painful to me atleast especially when driving a manual transmission. The good autoboxes like zf and getrag counter this by having 8 gears. However there are some really bad examples of this issue in the 1St Gen cruze Mt and hyundai verna.
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Hyundai diesels suffer a lot from turbo lag. The DDiS (Popularly called as the National Engine of India - due to majority) suffers very less from turbo lag. It's especially appreciated during initial driving, you easily get accustomed to it. BTW I have used one or the other tuning chip with diesel engines I owned, so it wasn't drawback for me.

Petrol engines aren't very safe either.
Well discussed here.

http://m.economictimes.com/industry...y-dirty-fuel-experts/articleshow/50239940.cms
 
iPwnz said:
^true. Coming up with a proper solution is more difficult than it sounds. You cannot please all the public/corps. For eg. Shutting down factories will anger the workers as it can lead to unemployment. Will also piss off the corps who own them as it will cut their revenue. Likewise with the odds/even method it will cut a small % of the pollution but will affect the public who rely too much on private vehicles. <- there is one solution which i can think of for this. Increase the DTC bus fleet and add more coaches to the metro trains. The number of DTC buses were actually supposed to have been increased a few years ago. Not sure if that has even been implemented. Delhi govt. (whatever party they belong to) likes to delay the issue and then forget it.
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I really doubt this is going to make a difference in the long run. It like how they provided free units of electricity. Consumption hardly went down. People would use two heaters in the winter instead of one. It is basic human psychology. Since the rich are being taxed for a luxury (actually prohibited) they will actually throw more of their richness around, which is so so much like Delhi people. They will buy long sedans and hatch backs. We will see more cars running in Delhi in a couple of years. People care hoots about pollution or the environment here, or matter of fact each other. That is why it is such a pain traveling in the metro and buses. People push and shove and hardly care about each other. I think 10K new auto licenses have been allocated. These guys are the worst menace around. As an environmental factor the immediate pollution levels may come down, but down the line they will taper back. Or maybe not..! Most of the people who are using 2000cc motors are no ways going to step onto a metro rail platform. That is laughable. They will make a beeline for the Creta/Duster variants and cover the heavy vehicles with a cloth. Delhi has an extreme elite ideology and this will not change it. You expect them to board those green MarcoPolo Tata buses..? Same with the odd-even method. People will find a way to circumvent this. AK is thinking on the right track, he should have implemented these changes in a phased and controlled manner. It is way too quick for the public to digest. Well let us see what they bring on board, this XMas. Anyways, it is a step forward, taken as a leap. We wait and watch.
 
I was wondering about this a while back. Delhi is not the only metro in India. We have many tier 1 and tier 2 cities where the vehicle influx is growing steadily. However, why is it so that the menace of extreme pollution haunts Delhi only. If you say Delhi is the only landlocked metro, I would say many surrounding big cities like Chandigarh etc have a good number of cars too. Yet, they are oblivious to the concept of extreme pollution. Is it because the people of Delhi are totally ignorant of the harmful effects or pollution, or is it something else??

I think the government should first understand the reasons before jumping on to such asinine draconian measures to curb the problem.
 
I see this effort of odd and even number rule more to convince the court that atleast the government is doing something about it.

The odd even rule has as much as 20 exceptions.not to mention they even had a proposal for two car owners to change their car numbers.
 
Changing vehicle numbers will be a pain in the butt for the government. We are not so developed or swift like the developed countries so as to handle such situations properly. :|
 
Leaving aside the argument between the AAP govt. and the Delhi Police there will be a trial run of the Odd/Even rule on 30th Dec.
Some govt. vehicles like Pilot Escort, SPGs etc will be exempted. Around 3000 buses will also be added.
The Delhi Police Commissioner told CNN-IBN that they can handle any situation but seemed to have tweeted something which sounded like the contrary (someone confirm). They can handle ANY situation but not the Odd/Even rule apparently? Whatever the case both the sides need the co-operation of the public.
While we are not sure for the "success" (not an appropriate term for something like this) of this odd traffic rule, we can be sure that kejri-saab will never stop having problems with the Delhi police. Haha.
To those unaware the Delhi Police is under the Centre (in which the BJP/NDA is in power) and Kejriwal wants the control of the Delhi Police (transfer of power from the Centre to the State govt.)

On another news (OT): a Gurgaon college girl was kidnapped inside a white maruti swift car in broad daylight. She tried to fight back in the middle of the road but couldn't. Some passers-by were at first stunned and only started chasing the car the moment they realized that something bad had happened. It was captured on cctv's.
 
iPwnz said:
The Delhi Police Commissioner told CNN-IBN that they can handle any situation but seemed to have tweeted something which sounded like the contrary (someone confirm). They can handle ANY situation but not the Odd/Even rule apparently? Whatever the case both the sides need the co-operation of the public.
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The DP maybe able to handle any situation. Can the public handle any situation..?** We pray to our cars when we purchase them and treat them like our family members. You expect the public to be happy because some newly elected gringo decides to shoot from the hip. Maybe they will kangaroo him to the nearest tree on which a rope can be tied...!

**We self-induce traffic jams at fully working/functional traffic signals. What more..!
 
Not following traffic rules is a serious problem especially in the metro cities. I don't think that we will ever learn.
 
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