How to clean the inside of a washing machine and keep it that way

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Using citric acid to descale a kettle. This video shows it works. He even used it with a coffeemaker

What prompted this post? Karcher does not like this idea

Using citric acid as an alternative​

In principle, a dishwasher can also be descaled with citric acid, but there a few things to keep in mind here. At high temperatures, citric acid combines with lime to form calcium citrate, which is very difficult to remove. To descale, add approximately 10 tablespoons of citric acid to 2 litres of cold water. Start the unfilled dishwasher on the lowest temperature possible. As soon as water has been distributed in the dishwasher, stop the programme and pour in the water-citric acid mix. Close the dishwasher and leave for 1 hour, then start the programme again. The advantage over vinegar or vinegar essence is the pleasant citrus fragrance.

They prefer you use lower temperatures to descale. But where is the hard-to-remove calcium citrate in the kettle video?
Similar things are said about not using citric acid to descale coffeemakers as well. Don't use citric acid as at high temperatures, bla bla. How high?

Limescale passivation by citric acid?

Cleaning products producers advise against using "home remedies" instead of their products. This advice against using citric acid to remove limescale was especially surprising for me: Ci...

chemistry.stackexchange.com

There is no cure-all solution for descaling and no "reaction" because scale is not a standard compound. Its composition will vary with water quality. So it is a bad idea by these companies to spread rumors that citric acid passivates limescale.

One has to know what the scale is and the construction material, to begin with descaling. I think it all depends on the application. For example, citric acid is ideal for descaling dishwashers and washing machines. It is not corrosive to steel and forms complexes with iron, if there are rust stains. Note that descaling is done with citric acid (citric acid is in excess) in these machines.

Of course, they don't want you using a home remedy when they have a product to sell. Which costs a bit and what better way to make you buy their product than to scare the crap out of you from using alternatives

Are there better chemicals than citric acid? Yeah, Sulfamic acid for one. Some of these descalers have it. Works better than citric acid to descale and is used to descale coffeemakers.

The trouble with sulfamic acid is it can take the shine off your steel drum, over time. It depends on the steel. Some grades are fine, others are not. That person complaining discovered it did not work very well with the steel used with her Bosch machine. But I've seen similar complaints with other machines so yeah don't descale your washing machine with a coffee machine descaler.

 

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You can see the scale on the gaskets of this machine. So he uses 200 gm of citric acid. With 5L in a regular boil wash that is a 4% concentration. He does a max spin for show as people want to see it, there is no need. The slowest spin speed is perfectly acceptable in this case.

By avoiding boilwashes once or twice a month you wont save anything but hygiene of washer! This thing never had boilwash in its life and its full of limescale and dirt!!! Also, it was only used with cheap detergents that made everything even worse! Even after 3 boilwashes its still dirty!

Figures.....

If you listen to her to save electricity you will end up with a nice dirty washer

 

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Couple of years ago this lady made a video about her new Bosch machine. I'm surprised to see the amount of mould that has accumulated in the door seal since. There is more mould in there than I've seen in over seven years with my machine. Shouldn't be going at it with a scourer but a soft sponge and cloth and for that you need dwell time. The bleach must be in contact with the seal for at least an hour and then wipe. It will take several attempts. Ideally, try the NaDCC tablets mentioned in the first post as they will be less corrosive to the door seal rubber.

Rin ala will clean it out but if there is that much mould in the door seal there is a lot more inside the machine. I left some comments to help her out.

The reason this happened is the door of that machine has never been left open or if it has for not long enough.

In humid weather, leave it open for eight hours ideally.



Now, there is another less obvious reason mould can build like that and its to do with a clogged door seal. There are two or more drain holes in the door seal that can get blocked with lint or whatever.

If you use a cotton bud to gently poke those holes you will remove the blocks and any water in the door seal will automatically drain away instead of collecting in it

 

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Next time will try LGs own descaler and see.

How to tell its genuine

there is no way That is why you need to test acidity

https://www.amazon.in/gp/product/B08XJD6NDP

Get that

Mix 5gm of the descaler in half a litre of water. Then take a teaspoon of the solution and add a drop of the indicator and see what colour it becomes

 

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Interesting to see LG in their top loader manuals acknowledge the use of Oxygen bleach but their instructions are not very clear. They recommend it to remove 'scrud'. What is that?

What to do

1) They recommend using as much as 300ml, in the case of Vanish that would be 300 gm. Not too far from the 200 gm I advocate for top loaders. I recommend filling the machine to the top and then adding the Vanish.

2) I have a problem with the term ml, because it implies this oxygen bleach is in a liquid form. There is no way to stabilise oxygen bleach in a liquid form. This is why no liquid detergent can ever contain oxygen bleach despite labelling using the oxy or oxygen term. It's just optical brighteners and of no use in cleaning a machine. Do not use liquid Vanish to clean the machine.

Oxygen bleach is always in a powder form and when it comes into contact with water releases hydrogen peroxide. If there are activators will be further converted into peracetic acid which is the case with Vanish.

3) They don't mention hot water which will accelerate the process and is recommended

4) They say not to use laundry which is fine.

5) It would seem you only need to do this if you use fabric conditioner. Well, I have never used that in my machine and due to underdosing detergent my machine developed a smell. So for general cleaning, Vanish is recommended regardless of whether you use fabric conditioner or not. The machine is going to get dirty with use over time.

6) I do not find the word 'descale' appearing in the LG top load manual at all

 

[6pack]

They don't mention hot water which will accelerate the process and is recommended

There's a reason for that. I think I saw somewhere they have mentioned not to use water above 40°C. Probably will destroy the plastic in the drum.

 

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There's a reason for that. I think I saw somewhere they have mentioned not to use water above 40°C. Probably will destroy the plastic in the drum.

Pg.5



This is what I was banging on about with @nRiTeCh

50-55 is fine and will do. As you fill it will lose over five degrees anyway and be close to 50. Anywhere from 20-50% better cleaning than tap water at 30

Check the video I linked in my post on cleaning top loaders. You will see him measuring the water temperature.

It is manual work though as you will have to lug at least three buckets and fill.

Ask @dafreaking what the benefit is using hot water to clean a tub

 

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Have not used citric acid in my machine for nearly six months. This is the result

https://imgur.com/a/5mJ65Dl

Compare with an earlier video and you can see how fast the foam clears up in that one when the movement stops

Citric acid helps keep detergent residue down. I knew something was up when I used the regular vanish with my usual mops and the machine filled up with foam to my surprise.

Let's see how many citric acid sessions it takes to return the machine back to the state it was in the previous video.

Was doing some experiments earlier with just plain detergent to see how well it worked for tub clean.



45gm of Ariel even with mops on tub clean stuffed the machine past the halfway mark with foam. If there were no mops in there to control foam it would have been stuffed completely.



That is the same 45gm Ariel but this time on a 90 degrees Cotton wash. Slight improvement. Still too much foam for my liking.



That is with 45 gm of Surf in the tub clean cycle. A little less foam than with Ariel

A few more of these experiments and that is how my machine came to be coated with detergent.

I don't consider detergent alone sufficient to clean a machine as the detergent we get here contains zero oxygen bleach which is the ingredient that does the actual cleaning.

In fact I find it counterproductive as it increases the residue in the machine. Which coats the spider, traps moisture and disintegrates the spider sooner.

Stick to citric acid and the occasional Vanish to get rid of smells.

 

[SaltyLemon]

Very detailed guide. Really appreciate it. Thank you

 

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This machine has got lots of scale on the gasket which means its worse inside

Closest equivalent

https://www.amazon.in/Beckmann-Washing-Eliminates-Convenient-Efficient/dp/B0B3MDP4FW

Going by the images it's one of those two-in-one cleaners that tries to descale and well as remove odours

But the ingredients say it's oxygen based which means it's for removing smells like Vanish does and not for descaling.

The descale image here is misleading.

No better than citric acid he finds which is to be expected

Looking at Beckman's catalogue the descaler appears to be this product with the triangular bottle

Reviews don't seem that great and it costs more than the one above.

Stick with citric acid

 

[kuduku]

This machine has got lots of scale on the gasket which means its worse inside

Closest equivalent

https://www.amazon.in/Beckmann-Washing-Eliminates-Convenient-Efficient/dp/B0B3MDP4FW

Going by the images it's one of those two-in-one cleaners that tries to descale and well as remove odours

But the ingredients say it's oxygen based which means it's for removing smells like Vanish does and not for descaling.

The descale image here is misleading.

No better than citric acid he finds which is to be expected

Looking at Beckman's catalogue the descaler appears to be this product with the triangular bottle

Reviews don't seem that great and it costs more than the one above.

Stick with citric acid

Hats off to your dedication to cleaning the tub
Can you pls consolidate your findings with recommended products and way to use them in the first post , might require a MOD help as it would be locked being Apr 22

 

[Parasyte]

I bought used IFB 6.5 kg front load last month.

it did smell bad so I did some research, tried few descaling powders, vinegar, bleach etc.
tub looked clean but i had doubts if the insides were as clean as well.

so I got on youtube and watched some disassembly videos and got to work, didn't regret it one bit.
it was very dirty, I had to scrub it with scotch brite and soap water to get everything off.

I guess the previous owner never did tub clean.

 

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Hats off to your dedication to cleaning the tub
Can you pls consolidate your findings with recommended products and way to use them in the first post , might require a MOD help as it would be locked being Apr 22

Nothing to add, a year later

There are only two

Vanish for smells and general cleaning. Labogens can be used as a booster with Vanish

Citric acid for descaling and detergent residue.

If there is too much detergent residue then Vanish will foam up excessively even with the fabric. Was surprised to see that the other day with tub clean

In that case, use citric acid a few times and boil washes. Then use Vanish after if there are any smells

If water isn't hard use Vanish more often. This should be the preferred product whether top or front loader


Samsung controversy over cleaning agents and drum clean

1) It is interesting that Samsung in Australia says not to use any cleaning agents with their drum clean cycle. They claim it can damage the drum without explaining how

How can that be unless you're using something that isn't recommended. If anything the idea of using cleaning agents is to PROTECT the drum



I did just that for years, tub cleans with nothing and since I was under dosing detergent the smell problem developed and the only thing that removed it was five tub cleans with Vanish

So it follows once every three months will prevent the problem from happening.

And if you have hard water then you have to descale it, their tub clean will not descale the machine on its own.


2) Went browsing through Samsung's FL manual and they say the same thing but don't use the word damage



Won't say why, after a little more searching in the manual and I found this


No harm in running a plain tub clean after but I've not seen a need to do so nor have I noticed a decrease in washing performance. On the contrary a clean machine will clean better.

They don't use the word damage



3) What does Samsung UK have to say on the topic?

Under Eco drum clean they say

Note: DO NOT USE a common laundry detergent with the ECO DRUM CLEAN and ECO DRUM CLEAN+ cycle.

This I agree with. Don't use washing detergent to do a drum clean. It's counter productive.

Now under Eco Drum Clean+ they say

• You can clean the drum without a cleaning agent when you use the ECO DRUM CLEAN cycle. (DO NOT USE a common cleaning agent for the ECO DRUM CLEAN and ECO DRUM CLEAN+ function.)
• Chemical residue in the drum may cause damage to the laundry or the drum of the washing machine.

ah, so it's the residue they claim can damage the drum

The Indian manual says only affects wash performance.

 

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4) Over to Samsung Singapore


No warning here about not using cleaning agents, rather they say not to place any fabric in the machine during the drum clean cycle. This drum clean program is quite intensive so I'd leave fabric out.



They have a section on cleaning agents. No warning not to use them but how to use them. Vanish is oxygen bleach.

I would not go with just 10% of the recommended amount. That isn't going to clean anything


I have finally discovered the reason why Samsung says not to use cleaning agents. Chatting with another Samsung user abroad

Why ? because the washer will drain 3 or 4 times in the first few minutes of self clean cycle. By this time any citric acid or any cleaning agent you put will be gone down the drain. Then it will run the lomg cycle. Another reason is, during self cleaning cycle, you cannot pause and open the door. In manual menthod you can.

Samsung has engineered their self-clean cycle in a way that cleaning agents CANNOT be used. Makes you wonder why they even bothered. Why say the machine will be damaged, seriously

I would recommend people not use their stupid eco drum clean that takes four hours and stick to the hottest longest cycle with the products mentioned in the first post. You will be done in two hours like the rest of the machines in the world.

Hats off to your dedication to cleaning the tub

A simple topic is made unnecessarily complicated because of a lack of clear information either deliberately or not causing confusion

The procedure is the same no matter the machine and will not change in the future.

I bought used IFB 6.5 kg front load last month.

it did smell bad so I did some research, tried few descaling powders, vinegar, bleach etc.
tub looked clean but i had doubts if the insides were as clean as well.

so I got on youtube and watched some disassembly videos and got to work, didn't regret it one bit.
it was very dirty, I had to scrub it with scotch brite and soap water to get everything off.

I guess the previous owner never did tub clean.

Got any photos? what was the state of the drum spider like?

Would have been good if you had tried some of the methods mentioned here before dissasembling it.

 

[chyawanprash]

I have finally discovered the reason why Samsung says not to use cleaning agents. Chatting with another Samsung user abroad

If they really wanted, Samsung could've allowed the use of cleaning agents by utilizing any of the three chambers in the detergent tray. Machine could've taken the cleaning agent from a specific chamber during the long cycle. People use all sorts of stuff to clean their machine. Combination of Vinegar, Baking Soda & Salt is a favorite of Youtube ladies. Maybe Samsung wanted to avoid such experiments that could damage their machines.

 

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If they really wanted, Samsung could've allowed the use of cleaning agents by utilizing any of the three chambers in the detergent tray. Machine could've taken the cleaning agent from a specific chamber during the long cycle.

Workaround is to not use their drum clean cycle

People use all sorts of stuff to clean their machine. Combination of Vinegar, Baking Soda & Salt is a favorite of Youtube ladies. Maybe Samsung wanted to avoid such experiments that could damage their machines.

Salt will corrode the drum. Baking soda is so mild as to be useless for anything but the mildest of scaling. Vinegar isn't good for the seals. I suppose it would scare away a few people. The baking soda and vinegar I already rebutted in an earlier post. Since everybody has access to it these become the most popular and also the most useless remedies.

Why not just tell them what to and not use? If they make a specialised product they endorse just that product and discourage the use of anything else. If they don't make a specialised product then they are just deliberately vague.

If you need to descale the machine then Samsung's eco tub clean won't do it or a smell develops (because you were not regular with tub clean). You will have to use another cycle with a cleaning agent which the Singapore branch fails to mention in their otherwise helpful instructions.

 

[Parasyte]

Got any photos? what was the state of the drum spider like?

Would have been good if you had tried some of the methods mentioned here before dissasembling it.

It's refurbished machine I bought from local repair shop.
previous spider was broken and they replaced it. but didn't clean the insides.
sadly I didn't take any pictures

 

[lockhrt999]

A little update on Samsung. The drum clean cycle is about 2:20 Hr long. But it throws all the water and descaler in first 5 minutes. It's probably a prewash. The manual doesn't say anything add detergent or descaler after 5 minutes. LOL

 

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A little update on Samsung. The drum clean cycle is about 2:20 Hr long. But it throws all the water and descaler in first 5 minutes. It's probably a prewash. The manual doesn't say anything add detergent or descaler after 5 minutes. LOL

How many drum cleans have you done with a product before realising this? Many I bet and got no benefit.

Seriously, who the hell knew Samsungs drum clean worked like this

Now I know why Samsung's front loaders get such a bad rap in the US. You could run their drum clean religiously and still have a spider failure within ten years. And if you used any products they did nothing whatsoever

The number of ways this simple process can be screwed up never ceases to amaze me.

You need the hottest, longest, intensive option selected to wash with any cleaning agent to do a drum clean. The water level will be lower but that is how it was done before these drum clean cycles appeared.

Or you can wait five minutes or however long that prewash takes before adding the product. Just pause it after it drains the water and then add the product.

How long does the cycle last? presumably, the main wash cycle after

Oh and to prevent limescale this is what they recommend

To prevent limescale, add the proper amount of detergent according to your local water hardness or add a water softener additive together with the detergent (pg. 41)

So according to Samsung, there is no need for descaling

You will still have detergent residue (or FS if you use it) buildup to deal with.

It‘s 6 years old.

Model is Samsung front load model (2016) with Eco bubble tag. I usually run ‘eco drum clean’ mode every month or once in 2 months. That mode is simply 60C wash that runs for an hour and half. The service guys told me to use half cup of surf liquid for that drum clean wash. Maybe I have to try vanish method u mentioned in first post.

Does your drum clean cycle also drain out everything in the first five minutes? Seems like it does. This program cannot be used with any cleaning agents.

First time I see a Sammy Drum clean. It's very intensive compared to LG's.

Can see it drained the water out at 2:43 in the video

This is the Indian Samsung and you can see it drained out the water around the 5:00 mark. A mere two minutes into the drum clean cycle

Sammy's drum clean does not stop at all, its just turns continuously for the hour or so long cycle

 

[Ssreek]

Does your drum clean cycle also drain out everything in the first five minutes? Seems like it does. This program cannot be used with any cleaning agents.

First time I see a Sammy Drum clean. It's very intensive compared to LG's.

Can see it drained the water out at 2:43 in the video

This is the Indian Samsung and you can see it drained out the water around the 5:00 mark. A mere two minutes into the drum clean cycle

Sammy's drum clean does not stop at all, its just turns continuously for the hour or so long cycle

AFAIR, no. The Eco Drum cleaning cycle is almost 1 hour 40 mins and I've seen water for more than 1 hour, and the water is very hot.

Meanwhile, I've bought this as per your earlier post and will try for next drum cycle.