Land Acquisition Bill

Any source for this courts clause. As far as I know there is no such thing in the new ordinance that prevents farmers from going to courts.

You are right about that. However they can't go to court against the presiding government officer who are usually in hand with the industrialists in these cases.

As it was explained in a debate on a news channel, the officials just slap such acquisition notices late at night and then the farmer has to run from post to post to fight against the decision or for proper compensation. This is akin to what Goons would do when removing someone from his occupied property and hence they should be also held accountable in such cases.
 
There are three clauses which are controversial. See if you can pick what is wrong with the picture:
1. UPA Act allowed acquisition of land for infrastructure projects excluding private hospitals, private educational institutions and private hotels. The NDA Act now includes private hospitals and private educational institutions. Critics say this is favoring private players.

  • BJP claims that private hospitals and private educational institutes will only help the local residents and these can be allowed as these are regulated sectors and allow only not-for-profit entities.
2. The mandatory prior consent of 80% (for private projects) or 70% (for PPP projects) has been done away with for projects relating to national security or defense, rural infrastructure including electrification, affordable housing, industrial corridors, social infrastructure, and PPP projects where government holds the land. Furthermore, all these projects can be provided irrigable, multi-cropped land without doing a social impact assessment or consultation with local panchayats or municipal corporations. This is the most controversial aspect and attracting protests.

  • BJP claims that these sectors are crucial for the country as well as local development and the consent part has been done away to expedite only a few projects like national highways, railways including metro projects, atomic energy projects, etc. The party and the government point out that the consent requirement remains present in bulk of the projects and so do the requirements for consultations. Apart from that, the part points out that the farmers are getting compensation running up to 4 times the market price, so it can’t be called draconian or unfair.
3. The UPA Act provisioned that the land will go back to the original owners if it is not utilized for 5 years. The NDA Act now removes the 5 year period and replaces it with “a period specified for setting up of any project or for five years, whichever is later.” Critics say that this gives an excuse of land grabbing as one may set the project setting up period as something as long as 20 years and keep the land unutilized, thus squatting on a real estate property.

  • BJP argues that all huge projects require a gestation period. They cite example of nuclear power plants, low cost housing projects, or railways projects, where time required from initial survey and assessment to actual project implementation can take up a lot of time. However, the party may do good to classify various projects that may be allowed to set a longer gestation period as they had done in the case of doing away with prior consent.
Apart from these, these are political bickering over the ordinance, accusing it of being an example of unilateral decision making by the Modi government, which BJP denies by arguing that these changes were incorporated after consulting with all UTs and state governments, which found the UPA act hindering development projects.

Source: http://www.opindia.com/2015/02/a-quick-guide-to-understand-the-land-acquisition-ordinance-issue/

Hint: Read after 1.
 
You are right about that. However they can't go to court against the presiding government officer who are usually in hand with the industrialists in these cases.

As it was explained in a debate on a news channel, the officials just slap such acquisition notices late at night and then the farmer has to run from post to post to fight against the decision or for proper compensation. This is akin to what Goons would do when removing someone from his occupied property and hence they should be also held accountable in such cases.
Would (re)introducing consents (50% maybe) clause be good enough?

And isn't it right that land owner can outright deny sell to private players?
 
Request: Please read all my replies to all quoted posts, not just to your own post before replying.


Again, you have a narrow field of view. Do you know that people have still to receive compensation for the Narmada Dam.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2009/mar/03/india-narmada-dams

Entire myth of Narmada Dam will be shattered by this. DO READ!


Do you know that farmers in India produce record harvest year after year?

Does it matter? Can they produce enough to generate enough GDP and foreign exchange as opposed to the area they occupy. Why cant we outsource food like the developed countries.

In order to properly educate yourself, I advise you to read the blog by Devinder Sharma which I had shared with TEians earlier - Ground Reality
I am sure you'll feel different once you have read his findings and articles.

Will go through it.


First of all there is no point in participating in any thread which has national trolls like avi and amg.

@OP
But still let me add few points just in case if it helps you get some wisdom.
I am sure you are still non earning brats surviving on your parents earning.. so you dont have exposure to real world out there.



USA produces/mfg only two things. Rest everything is imported.
they are food grains and weapons.

USA produces mostly export oriented cash crops, and not food stuff. Agriculture accounts for only 1% of USA's GDP. Weapons are a lucrative business.


Use little common sense and anyone can understand why the landbill is nothing more than a shitty draculain hitler law.

Draconian*
Yes. We are taking their lands. For what? For the purpose of job generation and facilitating "scientific temperament" as warranted by the constitution, which I believe you have not read!
And in case you havent seen the bill, the compensation of two times the market value of the land for both rural and urban areas. (Source: http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/bjp-...s-under-the-land-acquisition-ordinance-742041)

The farmers are going to get more than the current value of their land. how is it draconain?



Say there are new industries everywhere but will they employ the farmers???? No coz they are unskilled labors in terms of industries.

Well, then they will educate their children, and then we will have a highly skilled workforce. What about the 1991 opening of the market? Everyone thought we would be sold to its and foreigners would rule everything. We have become more competitive now.

Where will they and their families go after their land is grabbed? Govt is never going to give them compensation we all know that. Sadly even war veterans and freedom fighters have to peel their heels to get a meager amount of pension.

I disagree. I have given my source above for the amount to be given, and it is reasonable. If twice the value is not reasonable, god knows what is. And you do get it, unless you get greedy and want ten hundred thousand million times the value, well if you want that, keep fighting the case.

Ultimately all these farmers will be forced to come to cities and beg or do criminal activities coz life is b**ch and survival is bigger b**ch.

Nope.

Since even less and less food is being produced in the country food prices will shoot through the roof and we wont get enough food even after paying insane price for it.
What are you going to eat then?? your wifi routers and LED Tvs??

Are the chinese starving? Or the australians? Or the Canadians? Or the Russians?

Its going to encourage corruption like nothing before.
Politicians will buy barren lands at penny prices and sell it to govt for huge sums. They will even grab fertile lands just to settle vengeance and pay them pennies for land that can grow gold for years to come.

For heavens sake. Twice the market value is not pennies.

For whatever compensation a farmer may get for his land they will have to run pillar to post and bribe every other officer to get the money in their hands.
Say even if they get good amount for their land... for how many years will that money last their needs??? Every person cannot become a businessman or every investment wont result in good returns for them.

So what you are saying is that just because a farmer does not have a degree in finance of economics or a BBA, he doesnt know how to manage money, and if it is agreed that he does not know how to manage money, we dont acquire land?

After few years again many of them will become even poorer and again you can guess what happens then....
Also who is going to foot the bill for every piece of land the govt grabs??? We taxpayers will be paying for it.

See above.

My cousin's 10acre fertile land was grabbed by govt for rehabilitation of a village affected by a dam.
He was paid only Rs55L for the entire 10acres. We fought it till the high court and finally got a compensation of Rs6.5cr. Leave aside how much he paid the law firms and everything but atleast he got justice and good value for his land.

Well. Congrats. See the fact is that you do get a fair price if you struggle. People here are behaving as if you get paid 10 rupees for an acre or something.

This land bill takes away the right to go to courts and the basic fundamental right of every Indian citizen to have consent.

They will not be able to approach courts for any corruption/illegality found in the dealing of the project by government officials and holding them accountable. They can still approach for a reasonable compensation. And the courts are always willing to step in when there is a mala fide practice. LAw or no law.

You are an ignorant kid who doesn't have the slightest idea of what shit you are talking... and thats the reason you are holding the opinion you do now.

wow.

I am not against development or industrialization but at what cost that also needs to be thought about.

Twice the market value of land? Aur kya chahiye.

Every issue is not a trp or trolling issue. Think seriously and think honestly. Coz you are the one who is most adversely affected by it.
Today your family supports you but 2moro when you have to face the world on your own with this mind set you will either beg/cry/kill your self.
Sorry for the long post but it seems people have still not got the severity of the issue.

I, sir, am a socialist at heart. I therefore believe that all land belongs to the country, and the country can and should be able to take it when it wants for its strength. The country here is willing to pay a more than fair compensation.

What was that reason?

strategic reasons, like near a port, cheap labour etc etc.

How much was that compensation? If tomorrow someone asks you to move out of your house to build a factory that makes crappy cars and gives you 10 bucks on the way out, will you do it to 'contribute to our nation's development'?

See post above as to fair compensation.


How many farmers have you educated about modern technology or supplied this modern technology to and offered said technology for free since they're neck deep in debt, as part of your 'contribution to the nation's development'?

See. Thats the trouble with farmers. They are opposed to modern measures. Thus they are neck deep in debt. And when they are neck deep in debt, all they do is default on the loans. Consequently the state govt has to waive off the loans. So not only are the farmers losing money, so is the government. Why not acquire the land, give them fair compensation, and be done with it.

Your idealism is great, but instead of praising the govt for supplying land for free to rich industrialists, why not question their lack of effort to bring farmers to the modern age?

The government SHOULD and MUST make an effort to modernize agri. No 2 opinions about it.

Any source for this courts clause. As far as I know there is no such thing in the new ordinance that prevents farmers from going to courts.

See above.



What an extremely short sighted view. India doesn't need to make the exact same mistakes other countries have made, sacrificing long term stability for a short term high GDP growth. Agricultural land is going to become a lot more valuable in the near future. Do you know that Chinese companies are taking up long term leases on millions of hectares of arable land in Africa? And this from a country that is already 3 times the area of India and a population that won't be the largest in another 10 years time.


See. The companies will take land on lease. Large farm holdings. Scientifc measures. More use of machinery. = Profit.
But in India, less land, not enough to even buy a tractor, leave aside a harvestor, no knowledge of what to sow = loss

There are three clauses which are controversial. See if you can pick what is wrong with the picture:


Source: http://www.opindia.com/2015/02/a-quick-guide-to-understand-the-land-acquisition-ordinance-issue/



2: The mandatory prior consent of 80% (for private projects) or 70% (for PPP projects) has been done away with

Hypothetical example. Govt needs land for building a track for bullet train. Or an airport. Or whatever. Now 70% of the farmers are not going to bother with this because to them its useless. So we stop building it? LOGIC!?!?!?!?!?

3 The UPA Act provisioned that the land will go back to the original owners if it is not utilized for 5 years. The NDA Act now removes the 5 year period and replaces it with “a period specified for setting up of any project or for five years, whichever is later.”

Would (re)introducing consents (50% maybe) clause be good enough?

See above

And isn't it right that land owner can outright deny sell to private players?

That is what Land Acquisiton is for. The private player, who wants to set up a factory should not have to run the risk of separately negotiating with 100 land owners and agreeing 100 different sums to be paid. The govt works on his behalf, and everyone gets equal.
 
Factories cannot grow food.

Yeah, but farmers cannot grow food without the subsidized electricity, water supply, seeds, fertilizers and everything else that they get because of the taxes earned from all those industries. I dare any of them to do farming without the support that they get out of the tax money.

It is very important to support farmers especially the poor ones who have no other means of survival and it is equally important to support the industries in order for our country to upgrade from the false gratification of development that our people love so much and actually take a real step forward towards achieving that goal.

60% of our tax revenues come from corporate taxes of companies like Reliance and Tata's and 20% from income taxes paid people working in those corporate establishments and industries. Our country is literally running on such companies. At present, no matter how much farmers earn, they take and take from the tax payers money, but even when some of them are making a killing, they never bother to even pay the taxes that are due of them.

If you are a tax payer, you are literally paying farmers for all the stuff they need and the hard work they have to put in to grow food and then you are going and buying the food that that they grow. In many cases, that is the poor quality, rejected and genetically engineered stuff that gets left in the country after the good stuff is exported out.

I don't know how many of you have seen the level of entitlement that farmers and other village folk feel because of this sort of culture that they have got accustomed to but just to give an example, One time, when I was traveling from Chandigarh to Delhi, our bus was attacked by folk from a village on the outskirts of the city. The bus before ours was set on fire and another already damaged by pelting with stones. They were throwing stones at our bus as well (till it turned back and escaped) and had full intention to continue this rioting and vandalism. The reason was that electricity supply to the area was cut. There was not a single electricity meter in the village despite being offered subsidized electricity and this area was where the maximum amount of electricity and water was wasted for no good or justifiable reason. They were farmers, so they think they are entitled to free electricity and water all day and to waste both as they please and get benefits of tax payers money. They are entitled to resort to rioting and vandalism when they don't get what they want.

Make no mistake, many of the farmers are not against land acquisition because they want to keep these lands for farming. They just want the govt/industries to buy the land from them for considerably much higher price than the land is worth. And also make no mistake, even when they sell it at a good price, after the few years when the land value increases due to development, they will come and cry foul saying how a gross injustice was done to them and that the govt should set it right.

Stupid and self centered attention whores like Anna Hazare jump on these issues to satisfy own egos and political parties use them for brownie points and neither cares that they are dragging back the country by arguing without a reasonable solution.

I am definitely not in favor of any injustice being done to farmers, but a balance has to be stuck somewhere and farmers should not be behaving as if the country is running because of and around them because everybody has a role. They make our food, that is good, but lets not make a big deal of it because if not for the market protection from external competition that we have in place in India, we can get the same sub standard stuff that is currently left in the country for a considerably cheaper price from china.
 
I am a honest progressive forward looking member of the democratic structure of this country, commonly known as a citizen.
Seems you are getting a lot of flak for your position. Here is an article in support that gets into the nitty gritty of the legislation instead of useless rhetoric. The main purpose i see with this legislation is to enable industrial corridors as opposed to 'giving' land to corporates. Its for roads and rail ie infrastructure. The present act is unworkable it needs a change. The last govt got pushed about this one will not. Opposition's plan is simple, obstruct where possible then say what have you done (!)

'Opposition criticism questionable' Jan 18 2015

Prashant Kumar, Jan 18, 2015,
The land acquisition ordinance promulgated on December 31, 2014, has been the subject of intense public debate, political bickering and contention.

Union Finance Minister Arun Jaitley has justified the changes saying that in its previous form, the Act was incomplete and included many glaring mistakes and omissions. Critics argue that these changes will negatively impact the poor rural worker and farmers, making it easier for the industry to take land away from rightful owners or ignore the negative social impact of such acquisitions.

Too much emotion has perhaps prevented careful analysis of the amendments. Yet, after studying the act of 2013 and its subsequent 2014 amendment in detail, opposition to the ordinance is somewhat bewildering and the validity of the criticism questionable.

Not only does the ordinance revise sections that were in need of immediate change, it makes the previously one-sided bill a more balanced law that protects communities while adequately protecting farmers’ interests along with encouraging investment and infrastructure growth.

Of the important amendments, the first is the change in the Social Impact Assessment (SIA) requirements. The SIA as suggested by the original bill was a lengthy, open ended process to assess the impact that any land acquisition would have had on the owners of the land and those working on it in the previous few years. No clause in the bill ensured that the SIA report would be published within 2 months as stated by the government.

The overly complicated the SIA norms would have taken years to just assess, let alone recommend an award and could have potentially stalled much needed investment for years.

Secondly, it finally identifies who will be affected by such acquisitions. Rather than incorporating everyone who is dependent on the land, its focuses on ownership.

The 2013 Act had left the identification of those dependents on the land entirely undefined and by doing so not only made compensating those affected by acquisitions completely unrestricted and at times unaffordable but also open for litigation, which would further delay projects.

Thirdly, the ordinance only exempts government acquisition in five identified sectors from provisions of the act and does not provide avenues for acquisition by private entities as argued by critics.

The sectors which include: defence and security, rural infrastructure and electrification, affordable housing, industrial corridors and infrastructure projects are all beneficial for both rural and urban India and the development of these sectors is the sovereign duty of any central government.

Public infrastructure projects

Fourthly, the amendment incorporates 13 previously exempted laws that allowed government acquisition of land. Land Acquisition (Mines) Act 1885, Atomic Energy Act 1962, National Highways Act 1956 etc., are now subject to the same compensatory and relocation and rehabilitation (R&R) requirements that land acquisition for large scale public infrastructure projects must adhere to.
Fifthly, the ordinance omits the five year limitation of stalled development which returns land to original owners.

This allows large infrastructure projects with genuinely longer gestation periods the necessary time period for successful completion. Projects in sectors like nuclear energy, railways, defence and aviation can require longer time periods than just five years.

Under these changes, it will be possible to complete projects without the fear of litigation and unrest, demanding return of land as soon as the five years have expired.

And finally, the amendment also eliminates restrictions in acquisition due to classification of land by use. The previous clauses in the bill that restricted acquisition of fertile, multi-crop generating land, precluded industrialisation in large areas where it may actually be greatly needed.

The entire Indo-Gangetic plain would be left unindustrialised if these changes had not been made. Land in India is highly and unnecessarily politicised.

With 328.7 million hectares available of which 158.6 million hectares are arable, the government may not end up needing any fertile land, but a provision allowing to use it, makes development projects easier wherever required.

The only valid argument against the ordinance is that the without the SIA, there exists no mechanism to determine if the government already owns land that is unutilised in the area that it is seeking to acquire more land.

For this, the government should urgently create land inventories and take stock of the land owned by it, its affiliated entities and public sector enterprises.

The government, in its endeavour to serve the overall national interest, has done well in reforming a previously one-sided bill to a more balanced approach that not only responds to the needs of a growing, modern India but maintains the social protections that are needed to safeguard the interests of the farmers and more vulnerable sections of society.

The Centre has finally found a solution that does not make land acquisition a zero sum game. It has found a sustainable and equitable compromise between spurring investment and growth on the one hand and farmers’ interests and food security on the other. This is a laudable achievement.

(The writer is Associate Fellow, Observer Research Foundation, New Delhi)
 
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Yeah, but farmers cannot grow food without the subsidized electricity, water supply, seeds, fertilizers and everything else that they get because of the taxes earned from all those industries. I dare any of them to do farming without the support that they get out of the tax money.

It is very important to support farmers especially the poor ones who have no other means of survival and it is equally important to support the industries in order for our country to upgrade from the false gratification of development that our people love so much and actually take a real step forward towards achieving that goal.

60% of our tax revenues come from corporate taxes of companies like Reliance and Tata's and 20% from income taxes paid people working in those corporate establishments and industries. Our country is literally running on such companies. At present, no matter how much farmers earn, they take and take from the tax payers money, but even when some of them are making a killing, they never bother to even pay the taxes that are due of them.

If you are a tax payer, you are literally paying farmers for all the stuff they need and the hard work they have to put in to grow food and then you are going and buying the food that that they grow. In many cases, that is the poor quality, rejected and genetically engineered stuff that gets left in the country after the good stuff is exported out.

I don't know how many of you have seen the level of entitlement that farmers and other village folk feel because of this sort of culture that they have got accustomed to but just to give an example, One time, when I was traveling from Chandigarh to Delhi, our bus was attacked by folk from a village on the outskirts of the city. The bus before ours was set on fire and another already damaged by pelting with stones. They were throwing stones at our bus as well (till it turned back and escaped) and had full intention to continue this rioting and vandalism. The reason was that electricity supply to the area was cut. There was not a single electricity meter in the village despite being offered subsidized electricity and this area was where the maximum amount of electricity and water was wasted for no good or justifiable reason. They were farmers, so they think they are entitled to free electricity and water all day and to waste both as they please and get benefits of tax payers money. They are entitled to resort to rioting and vandalism when they don't get what they want.

Make no mistake, many of the farmers are not against land acquisition because they want to keep these lands for farming. They just want the govt/industries to buy the land from them for considerably much higher price than the land is worth. And also make no mistake, even when they sell it at a good price, after the few years when the land value increases due to development, they will come and cry foul saying how a gross injustice was done to them and that the govt should set it right.

Stupid and self centered attention whores like Anna Hazare jump on these issues to satisfy own egos and political parties use them for brownie points and neither cares that they are dragging back the country by arguing without a reasonable solution.

I am definitely not in favor of any injustice being done to farmers, but a balance has to be stuck somewhere and farmers should not be behaving as if the country is running because of and around them because everybody has a role. They make our food, that is good, but lets not make a big deal of it because if not for the market protection from external competition that we have in place in India, we can get the same sub standard stuff that is currently left in the country for a considerably cheaper price from china.

Have you ever been to a village in Haryana?
There are no proper roads, schools, hospitals and electricity comes for just 4 hrs. Where in villages have you seen farmers making merry from the tax paid by hard working salaried people. Their produce is procured at paltry prices and then sold at astronomical prices elsewhere.
If you really believe that farmers are the ones enjoying the tax benefits, I really pity you. The tax subsidies enjoyed by industries are astronomical compared to the budget provided for agriculture. The inequalities don't end just there. While a farmer has to run around trying to get a loan at 13%, Punjab govt themselves give a loan of thousands of crores to Lakshmi Niwas Mittal at 0.1% so that he can buy the Bhatinda Refinery.
GMR made 1.6lakh crores just from the Delhi Airport. Why can't the govt build such projects themselves and share the profits with the landowners. They certainly have the money.
Do you know how many companies just shift their base from these SEZs once the tax holidays are over. When the time comes for the states to finally make some money from the profits of such enterprises they just shift base to a newly announced SEZ.
Also a farmer at least can grow food for his family on his land and that is the most crucial part everyone seems to be missing. Can he eat the money that will be provided to him in return.
If you have been listening to the various debates, you would perhaps know that right now there is around 5.5 lakh square kms of unarable land in India. Has that land been exhausted?
You were afraid for your life because of the pelting of the buses that you saw and experienced. What about the fear of a farmer losing his house and source of livelihood. What of his family and the next generations to come.
If the govt is taking away a perennial source of livelihood they should replace it with something similar and not money. If they are buying the land at their price, they should ensure the farmers get land somewhere else at the same prices.

Why are we only talking about 'Make in India'? Why can't we say 'Grow in India'?
Even today majority of our people are employed in agriculture. I can guarantee you that entrepreneurial opportunities are huge in the agriculture sector. We produce record harvests every year and yet the farmers are poor. They are forced to throw their harvests on roads while we pay through our noses for the same vegetables and grains.
So we don't provide them electricity, health and education facilities and now we also want to take away their lands so that they can't even grow their own food. Why don't we just hang them on the Peepal tree at the village square. At least their end will be swift.

Also you are grossly mistaken that farmers can't farm without the subsidized electricity, water supply etc as you say in the beginning of your post. Farmers in my village in Himachal don't use any fertilizers, electricity, diesel or water supply and they can still grow enough to feed their own family and also earn money by selling the rest. You seem to forget that farming is lot more ancient that all the things you have mentioned and in fact those primitive farming practices were much better than the intensive farming practices of today that have been adopted in the name of advancement.
 
^^

Your post makes you come out as nostalgic rather than being realistic.

First off let me say, we have a raw deal. We are 1.2 billion strong in a very small land. US have a huge land mass with less population and EU is less land and less population. China and Russia again another ball park.

Agree taking livelihood away from someone is bad. Agree what you are saying. But you need to be bit more open. Un-developed lands are not always suitable for putting up industries in the get go. India is already a agricultural society/country. If you want to say Grow in India, it doesnt make sense. we been growing India. Our Green revolution did produce results. Its time for Make in India. New factories have to .. I am sorry.. NEED to have good connectivity. It has to have good rail, roads, air connectivity. And you know we are trying to export it? We need ports. You cannot spend a bomb to ship it. They cannot be in remote areas. As you say farmers livelihood is threatened, unless your offer is sweet enough no one will spend their already earned money to make new factories.

Now coming to the subsidies to farmers. Have to say, knowing many large and mid-scale farmers, its true. You are paying for them. They are the ones instigating these mess. They have other means already. These small ones that people seem to talk of, most are very kind and more open to change. They just want their lands worth and rehab. But yea, I agree our government sucks are providing them. But just because of that, we cannot say NO to the entire process.

West is shrinking. This is the time to forge ahead. If still we are trying to cling to old traditions, we may win this round. But will loose in next. India already lost many rounds. How many are Indians ready to loose?
Young people are migrating en mass to other countries. The rest are busy typing in keyboards. Who is going to shape tomorrow?

Whenever I read articles like India next emerging superpower or economic power I honestly laugh.
 
^^

Your post makes you come out as nostalgic rather than being realistic.

First off let me say, we have a raw deal. We are 1.2 billion strong in a very small land. US have a huge land mass with less population and EU is less land and less population. China and Russia again another ball park.

Agree taking livelihood away from someone is bad. Agree what you are saying. But you need to be bit more open. Un-developed lands are not always suitable for putting up industries in the get go. India is already a agricultural society/country. If you want to say Grow in India, it doesnt make sense. we been growing India. Our Green revolution did produce results. Its time for Make in India. New factories have to .. I am sorry.. NEED to have good connectivity. It has to have good rail, roads, air connectivity. And you know we are trying to export it? We need ports. You cannot spend a bomb to ship it. They cannot be in remote areas. As you say farmers livelihood is threatened, unless your offer is sweet enough no one will spend their already earned money to make new factories.

Now coming to the subsidies to farmers. Have to say, knowing many large and mid-scale farmers, its true. You are paying for them. They are the ones instigating these mess. They have other means already. These small ones that people seem to talk of, most are very kind and more open to change. They just want their lands worth and rehab. But yea, I agree our government sucks are providing them. But just because of that, we cannot say NO to the entire process.

West is shrinking. This is the time to forge ahead. If still we are trying to cling to old traditions, we may win this round. But will loose in next. India already lost many rounds. How many are Indians ready to loose?
Young people are migrating en mass to other countries. The rest are busy typing in keyboards. Who is going to shape tomorrow?

Whenever I read articles like India next emerging superpower or economic power I honestly laugh.

Devinder Sharma is a very well respected person in the matters of agriculture. I implore everyone to go and read his blog, if they can.
Everyone is talking about development. My question is why are villages excluded from it. Why even today they don't have electricity, health and education.
Let's leave that. The entrepreneurial opportunities in the sector of agriculture are huge. Why don't we see the eagerness of our govt in that. We should realize that we have already lost the battle of manufacturing to China. But the battle of becoming the world's food bowl is something we can really win if we want to. Everyone sees the growth of China, but never realize how good they are at hiding the havoc that this growth has played on their citizens. Record no of protest and suicides have been committed by farmers in China. The freedom is curtailed and the disparity between the poor and rich has only increased. I am sorry, but I am against this sort of development.

If anyone of you watches Food CIA on History TV, you would realized that the agriculture sector has massive opportunities. We recently became the biggest exporter of beef. We produce record harvests of most of our staple produces every year. In a country which has such fertile land, shouldn't the emphasis be on monetizing what we are already best at than trying to compete in a field in which we will have to claw our way from the end of the pack. We should learn from countries like UAE and play to our strengths rather than build flying castles.
I strongly believe that making agriculture more profitable is much more important and the right way to go if we truly want India to develop. We should strive to develop our villages so that moving to a city becomes a choice rather than a coercive decision as that is how it is in the developed nations across the world.

http://devinder-sharma.blogspot.in/2014/12/why-grow-in-india-too-is-important.html?m=1
 
Why are we only talking about 'Make in India'? Why can't we say 'Grow in India'?
Too many small plots that don't allow economies of scale. Bigger plots can produce much more if there was some way to combine those smaller plots and keep the owners happy. some sort of cooperative. will take some serious land ownership guarantees to make that happen. undivided shares and what not. Happens all the time with apartment buildings. What stops it happening with farms.

Even today majority of our people are employed in agriculture. I can guarantee you that entrepreneurial opportunities are huge in the agriculture sector. We produce record harvests every year and yet the farmers are poor. They are forced to throw their harvests on roads while we pay through our noses for the same vegetables and grains.
Better infrastructure means that produce is on a train to some part of the country where there is a shortage. You don't sell for a pittance and i don't pay through the nose. Less waste. everybody is happy.

The problem is we have too many people dependent on agriculture. what is the figure like ? 60% of people in this country are still trapped in agriculture. In other countries its in single digits.

So we don't provide them electricity, health and education facilities and now we also want to take away their lands so that they can't even grow their own food. Why don't we just hang them on the Peepal tree at the village square. At least their end will be swift.
The problem with this position is it guarantees those farmers will remains poor, no infrastructure development will be possible in areas where people are desperate for it. How many kids want to be farmers these days ?

Also you are grossly mistaken that farmers can't farm without the subsidized electricity, water supply etc as you say in the beginning of your post. Farmers in my village in Himachal don't use any fertilizers, electricity, diesel or water supply and they can still grow enough to feed their own family and also earn money by selling the rest. You seem to forget that farming is lot more ancient that all the things you have mentioned and in fact those primitive farming practices were much better than the intensive farming practices of today that have been adopted in the name of advancement.
You are blessed with fertile soil. In other areas water and fertilisers is what grows food. its called the green revolution. That's how we turned a famine in the beginning of the 60's into a surplus by the end of that decade. The guy's called Norman Borlaugh.
 
Too many small plots that don't allow economies of scale. Bigger plots can produce much more if there was some way to combine those smaller plots and keep the owners happy. some sort of cooperative. will take some serious land ownership guarantees to make that happen. undivided shares and what not. Happens all the time with apartment buildings. What stops it happening with farms.

This. A ****ing million times over!

Better infrastructure means that produce is on a train to some part of the country where there is a shortage. You don't sell for a pittance and i don't pay through the nose. Less waste. everybody is happy.

The problem is we have too many people dependent on agriculture. what is the figure like ? 60% of people in this country are still trapped in agriculture. In other countries its in single digits.

Let me rephrase that. %of people in agri = 51% % of contribution to GDP = 17%
% of people in agri in USA = 2% % of contribution to GDP = 1.3% (which is roughly equal to what India produces, because their GDP is much higher, therefore the %age comes out to be lower

So the way I look at it is that more than 50%(about 60 crore, and thats ****ing huge) of people work in agri, yet contribute precious little to the GDP.



The problem with this position is it guarantees those farmers will remains poor, no infrastructure development will be possible in areas where people are desperate for it. How many kids want to be farmers these days ?

No ****ing body. Every farmer wants his son to get a job, even if it is as a clerk.

You are blessed with fertile soil. In other areas water and fertilisers is what grows food. its called the green revolution. That's how we turned a famine in the beginning of the 60's into a surplus by the end of that decade. The guy's called Norman Borlaugh.



Also my previous long post #26 did not get any replies. No valid counter points?
 
Also you are grossly mistaken that farmers can't farm without the subsidized electricity, water supply etc as you say in the beginning of your post. Farmers in my village in Himachal don't use any fertilizers, electricity, diesel or water supply and they can still grow enough to feed their own family and also earn money by selling the rest. You seem to forget that farming is lot more ancient that all the things you have mentioned and in fact those primitive farming practices were much better than the intensive farming practices of today that have been adopted in the name of advancement.

That applies only for a handful of villages around the Punjab and Haryana areas that have very fertile lands and even despite that I have seen much resources get wasted for no reason. Let me tell you that there are villages where pumping water is the major utilization of electricity and if they ever see the villages in Punjab and Haryana, it would make their blood boil with rage looking at the wastage. Even despite the fertile lands,They still use every subsidy and benefit available to them. I have seen how they game the system. Many of the farmers there with sizable lands make a decent buck out of farming. they still don't pay a dime in taxes, but lap up everything they can get their hands on. The don't pay for the electricity either to the farms or to their houses.

In AP region, there are many villages people have even stopped farming in their fields. They just live of the benefits given by the govt. Just a few days back, a colleague from a village in AP region was telling me about how lazy the folk in his village have become. They are taking agriculture loans and literally living of them for last 10 years with the expectation that the next govt will void the loans at tax payers expense . Every time elections come year, one or more parties promise voiding of agriculture loans.

Yes there are also aspects where villages are suffering, but you should know that this sort of abuse is reason why villages end up suffering.

As I said before, I don't want anybody to get a raw deal. But, lets not glorify and pamper farmers and their role and let them ride on the heads of the other people.If they are miserable, they have often themselves and their peers to blame for it. Everybody has a role to play. Right now, the majority 80% of the countries tax revenues are coming from industries and corporates and the people working in them. So there is a reason why the govt would want take moves to encourage this sector. But it still should not be expense of livelihood of poor farmers. There should be some balance struck.

Currently there are many things wrong with agriculture in India. It is at the same time the biggest abuser and the victim. People love to say that farmers in India are giving us our food. But, is this really true? As I said before, this situation is being forced in an artificial manner with a closed market. What ever good quality stuff that gets produced in India is exported out as for the stuff that gets left for local consumption, china or some other country can supply us with same quality stuff for a fraction of the price. If you go to the market and given a choice of purchasing the same quality stuff for either Rs 50 or Rs 20 which would people really like to use. Our local market is thriving by restricting this kind of competition.

Its like winning a race in which you are the only participant. All that "make in India" or "grow in India" is a meaningless exercise if you are not able to do this in an open competitive environment. Its nothing more than patting ourselves on the back for winning a one participant race.
 
Too many small plots that don't allow economies of scale. Bigger plots can produce much more if there was some way to combine those smaller plots and keep the owners happy. some sort of cooperative. will take some serious land ownership guarantees to make that happen. undivided shares and what not. Happens all the time with apartment buildings. What stops it happening with farms.


Better infrastructure means that produce is on a train to some part of the country where there is a shortage. You don't sell for a pittance and i don't pay through the nose. Less waste. everybody is happy.

The problem is we have too many people dependent on agriculture. what is the figure like ? 60% of people in this country are still trapped in agriculture. In other countries its in single digits.


The problem with this position is it guarantees those farmers will remains poor, no infrastructure development will be possible in areas where people are desperate for it. How many kids want to be farmers these days ?


You are blessed with fertile soil. In other areas water and fertilisers is what grows food. its called the green revolution. That's how we turned a famine in the beginning of the 60's into a surplus by the end of that decade. The guy's called Norman Borlaugh.

All your points are correct and everyone knows that the problem is in management and not production of food grains and vegetables. Money-minded middle men create man-made shortages and make a killing while the farmer is forced to sell at a loss because of bumper harvests. Meanwhile India still remains hungry.
Just a few months ago, farmers were forced to sell tomatoes for 10/kg when we were paying 70/kg for the same. Meanwhile all the companies making tomato sauce were doing so by importing cheap tomato paste from China.
Here in Chandigarh, regular Sabzi Mandis are organized every day of the week at various grounds all across Chandigarh where nearby farmers can come and sell their produce directly to the end consumer. They get a much better price while the customer gets a huge bargain themselves if you look at the price difference. Also one gets fresh produce rather than long stored stuff.
Like I have been saying, there are so many avenues and opportunities to make money and provide employment in agriculture itself and it would serve us well to recognize them and develop them instead of continuing to ignore villages that we have been doing for so long.

See, the main disinterest in the youth of today is due to the mismanagement in the way our agriculture produce is procured and sold which has made farming a non-profitable affair. All that needs to be done is to build a robust supply chain which ensures good profits for the farmers while keeping the prices reasonable for the end customers like us. And believe me when I say that it is not a costly affair at all to overhaul the system. Would it not serve the whole of India better if we can pay a farmer Rs. 20 directly instead of having to pay Rs. 40 to a middle man who originally paid just Rs. 5 to the farmer. Trust me, youth will return to farming if such a simple system can be arranged because who doesn't want to be their own boss.
 

I am quoting some lines from the article you have linked us to

India's problem is that too many people are dependent on low-income jobs in agriculture, while land is scarce for the creation of higher-paying jobs outside agriculture. The only solution is to reduce the number of people dependent on land and agriculture by making more of it available for industry and infrastructure. There is no other way.

Who says there is no other way. I have already highlighted the way we can turn farming into a profitable enterprise even for small holding farmers. Elimination of greedy middlemen and a robust supply chain is all you need.
In your eyes, is it alright for someone who is his own boss to be turned into a daily wage laborer who will never get the daily wage set by the government while he runs from pillar to post trying to get the compensation that he was promised.
First the problems ailing the implementation mechanism should be removed and only then a good law should be presented.
People displaced by the Sardar Sarovar Dam system on the Narmada River in 1979 are still fighting for proper rehabilitation. Many were forced to take cash compensation on rates far below the market rate even when the Supreme Court had made a judgement that compensation should be land-for-land. They even went on to put a 10% income tax on the amount that was being forcibly given as compensation.

I have nothing against land acquisition for industries and other things, but the acquisition should be just and compensation should be provided before the land gets acquired. Just tell me in which universe is it just to remove someone from their home and then make them run around for the promised compensation. How are the poor farmers supposed to provide an abode and food for his family in the meantime.
 
It is utterly confusing as to why we need to "grab land" at this juncture. Why is the Govt. turning a blind eye to the thousands of closed factories and warehouses being held onto cynically by the corporates and the Govt. alike? Why cant these premises be put to use first. Every day, on my way to work, I pass by the once iconic Jessop premises and stare in awe at all that land, plant and machinery rotting and idling away. The shut down for good Dunlop factory, India Foils factory, uncountable jute mills and all these in just 20kms and right along the metropolitan city of Kolkata with a well established infrastructure and at close vicinity to National Highways, Railroads, Air and Sea Ports. I bet these plots were once handed over to industrialists for peanuts or intended to be put in use by Govt. projects which lie dead and buried today. Why not reclaim these lands first? From an industrialist's point, these are supposedly prime locations. Am I just missing the scheme of things here or is the scheme just too cynical to comprehend?
A perfect case in point would be the defunct Hindustan Motors factory at Uttarpara. Allegedly, the promoter group was silently selling off parts of the allocated Industrial lands for promoters developing residential complexes which was blatantly illegal. Before poaching on farm-lands, the Govt. should first focus on reacquiring such industrial lands from the hands of pretentious industrialists who got the lands as alms from the Govt. in the first place and dared to misuse or not use the same.
 
Money-minded middle men create man-made shortages and make a killing while the farmer is forced to sell at a loss because of bumper harvests. Meanwhile India still remains hungry.
Bumper harvest means supply excess, asking price is low in the area where the harvest has a surplus. No middle man is creating any man made shortage. The problem is you can't economically get that produce out to other parts of the country. What causes fluctuation in price is mostly drought and its regional. some areas will have a shortfall and the local price spikes because its not economical to send produce from other parts. This is because the right infrastructure isn't there

Just a few months ago, farmers were forced to sell tomatoes for 10/kg when we were paying 70/kg for the same. Meanwhile all the companies making tomato sauce were doing so by importing cheap tomato paste from China.
Then it must be worse where you are as i can't recall paying more than Rs.40 over the last 6 months. Onions can go for more. See what i pay for here, updated on a daily basis. Cooperative no middle man, but i have to say the market where there is a middle man can be more competitive for vegetables but not with fruits. Price is the same but the quality is better than i see in the market.

Its been very variable fluctuating between Rs. 13-40. When it gets too low nobody will ship because transport charges kill any profit. Its better to keep it in the village and let it rot or feed pigs. No FDI in retail means no funding to set up reprocessing centers. yes, there are plenty of opportunities but no funding.

That is why its easier to import 'cheap' paste from China and not from the neighbouring states, as they don't make any. Is there something wrong here or not ?

Here in Chandigarh, regular Sabzi Mandis are organized every day of the week at various grounds all across Chandigarh where nearby farmers can come and sell their produce directly to the end consumer. They get a much better price while the customer gets a huge bargain themselves if you look at the price difference. Also one gets fresh produce rather than long stored stuff.
Like I have been saying, there are so many avenues and opportunities to make money and provide employment in agriculture itself and it would serve us well to recognize them and develop them instead of continuing to ignore villages that we have been doing for so long.
Why has nothing been done for so long in this regard ? protect vested interests. its the same story every where even in China. vested interests oppose reforms of any kind because it threatens their position. These politicians go and agitate in the name of the poor farmer but nobody really cares about that poor farmer its about whose interests are served in said farmers name. always has been.

See, the main disinterest in the youth of today is due to the mismanagement in the way our agriculture produce is procured and sold which has made farming a non-profitable affair. All that needs to be done is to build a robust supply chain which ensures good profits for the farmers while keeping the prices reasonable for the end customers like us. And believe me when I say that it is not a costly affair at all to overhaul the system. Would it not serve the whole of India better if we can pay a farmer Rs. 20 directly instead of having to pay Rs. 40 to a middle man who originally paid just Rs. 5 to the farmer. Trust me, youth will return to farming if such a simple system can be arranged because who doesn't want to be their own boss.
What happens in time of droughts. Where is the insurance when a farmer is tapped out on the present crop and must reap a harvest. The only way to get these supply chains is by increasing investment. no fdi in retail, no land acquisition guarantees the status quo. That is what you are asking for by opposing any reform which would attract funding.
 
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