derp
Forerunner
No LPG Subsidy from Jan 2016 for consumers with 10 Lac Income
- Thread starter Lord Nemesis
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Do you know how big of an idiot you come out as with that absurd and non-nonsensical argument? You have absolutely no point there and arguing just for the heck of it.
It is the basic duty of all citizens of the country to pay their tax liabilities. That money is not for govt to eat or do whatever it pleases to do with it. It is basic duty of the govt is work for its tax payers using the money contributed by them. It is the duty of the govt to put tax payer money to good use and is answerable to the tax payers in how its utilized. People in every democracy have a right to question how their contributions are utilized. Tax money is to be used to build facilities and infrastructure in the nation for the sake of the people contributing towards it. Providing benefits to the needy is a secondary non obligatory interest which BTW, most tax payers are not contesting.
As said in this case, the point is not about giving up subsidies, but why should subsidies exist in the first place and they are only going to be abused. Who is getting the benefit? The poor as I said cannot afford gas stoves or cylinders. So they are not getting any benefit here. Most people who can afford gas even at subsidized rates have in most cases have tax liabilities as well, but many don't pay them since their incomes are not accounted for. There is absolutely no damn reason to fund benefits for tax dodgers from tax money.
An IT employee with 10 lac income pays taxes because of TDS and hence he is not going to get any subsidy, but a cab driver with similar income, not only evades tax worth a couple of Lac's, but also gets to enjoy subsidized gas at the expense of the former because of his choice to not file taxes. Do you think that its meaningful for the country. Do you thing that this sort of thing should be encouraged?
The govt is not plugging any gaps here. they are creating gaps that enables only the tax dodgers (who happen to be a good vote bank for them) to get benefits at expense of tax payers. Also FYI, a tax payer getting a benefit is totally meaningful since they are paying for it.
As for your argument about soldiers, its as absurd as the rest. Its a profession that they have chosen and they are not doing it for charity. They do it to earn a living form the salaries they are paid. Salaries that are funded from tax payers money. All govt servants and services are funded by tax money.
When I was in Chandigarh, there was village in the outskirts where everybody used electricity illegally without a single meter in any house hold or farm and since they are getting it free, they consumed excessively and wasted it without a bother. The govt offered massive subsidies to villages, but why would they pay at subsidized rates when they can use it illegally for free? So one fine day, the electricity dept, cut off all supply into their village. They came on to the roads and destroyed 2 RTC buses and damaged another in protest. They don't care because those buses are funded by tax money that they are not paying a dime of.
Imagine, if in your neighborhood there are a lot of people who can afford to buy TV's, fridge's and all sorts of electrical appliances, but illegally wiretap electricity and abuse it excessively and the govt decides that people like you who pay the bills properly should cover for their use as well and hence instead of 1000/ month, they increase your bill to 10,000/month (which keeps increasing as they abuse more and more), would you keep your month shut and just pay it up each month without any protest?
derp
Forerunner
Lol! From that paragraph, I can judge the amount of respect you have for martyrs. You are comparing national security to a normal day to day government service which is funded by a taxpayers money? Wow! Just wow!
But let me break it out to you that many don't feel the same way. It is for them, you are still breathing. So I think you should give them some respect.
Reading through your ludicrous(to say the least) argument you put, let me remind you that our democracy has a strong component of socialism embedded into it. It is the responsibility of a government to help the needy and to bring them at par with the so called educated folk to mitigate their exploitation. Many new plans have been rolled which, believe it or not, are fulfilling their purposes. Financial inclusion is a big thing and has averted many financial disasters exported from foreign lands. Several top organizations of the world have given positive reviews about the various poverty alleviation programs taken by the government.
But people like you don't want to understand that, as you yourself have a colonial mentality. You want to keep poor, poor so that he serves your selfish exploitative wants always . you already would want a chotu in your office to give you tea instead of going to school. You would want a kantabai who has to cook food for you while you laze away to glory. You don't really want an egalitarian society. You always want to be served by someone inferior to you. This is the sole reason of quoting examples of plan failures. You would never acknowledge that son of a rikshawpuller who cracked IITJEE, thanks to national education policy. You won't acknowledge that cured alcoholic, who is getting some guaranteed income thanks to mnrega scheme. You won't acknowledge that Dalit, who has started his/her small business in some obscure village and is employing people and giving them a source of livelihood!
You would only se the world with your glasses made of bias and blame the government for its failures, and would turn a blind eye to its achievements.
rdst_1
Juggernaut
Man, this guy is beyond delusional. I would advise you to get out of your house and take a look at the real world without your rose-tinted glasses, instead of reading articles about it. Even if that doesn't change your bhakti, then I don't know if anything can be done.
Maybe the miniscule good that you see is good enough for you, but for people like me, as most of us have been saying for the past few pages, we want a radical change. We want to see common people's interests (not only the poor) put before industrialists, we want there to be high level of accountability for high rank officials, we want the basic infrastructure to be developed without corruption, we want rules to be enforced more stringently, even if it displeases the vote bank.
Basically we want to stop feeling exploited and for a change have someone honest revolutionize the way this country works.
Having said all that, I also know, for a fact, that it isn't gonna happen. I have hoped for a long time now and I have pitted myself against many government officials and systems to know now that it is not only the politicians who are corrupt, rather most of the people are as well.
Asingh has pointed this out plenty of times and now I believe it as well.
So, on a personal front, I am going to just live with it and just like most of my fellow Indians, think only about myself and not the society.
Maybe the miniscule good that you see is good enough for you, but for people like me, as most of us have been saying for the past few pages, we want a radical change. We want to see common people's interests (not only the poor) put before industrialists, we want there to be high level of accountability for high rank officials, we want the basic infrastructure to be developed without corruption, we want rules to be enforced more stringently, even if it displeases the vote bank.
Basically we want to stop feeling exploited and for a change have someone honest revolutionize the way this country works.
Having said all that, I also know, for a fact, that it isn't gonna happen. I have hoped for a long time now and I have pitted myself against many government officials and systems to know now that it is not only the politicians who are corrupt, rather most of the people are as well.
Asingh has pointed this out plenty of times and now I believe it as well.
So, on a personal front, I am going to just live with it and just like most of my fellow Indians, think only about myself and not the society.
derp
Forerunner
Be the change you want to see and hope the things would fall in place eventually. You are/will be miserable not because the government is not doing a thing for you. Government is not static. Government is transient. You are/will be miserable because there is no end to this selfish insatiable quench of amassment and exploitation. Leaving few exceptional cases, I think more or less, our government is doing fine. But we as citizens should work with the government and not be mute observers who just protest when things are NOT going according to their tastes .
Same goes for free basics as well. Someone here has beautifully put across that let this plan start. Let the intended target get empowered and let THEM decide if they truly need the service or not. This is real democracy! You are no one to judge if someone from some backward area is even CAPABLE enough to compete with you. The role of the government is to bring in parity here so that everyone is equal!! And for that, government needs funds and I am sure that day is not far, when the REAL needy will get their dues.
rdst_1
Juggernaut
I am sorry but I am already doing my duty by paying taxes and being a law abiding citizen.
I will however not be exploited anymore. This very government has made some unspeakable amendments to the RTI and Whistleblower act and so I and many others can see that our hope that this govt will be different has already evaporated.
Also just hoping hasn't done us any good since Independence. Political will is virtually nonexistent. The whole of the US freeway network was conceptualized, implemented and built within one presidency. The whole of Europe, despite being different countries, united and have joined their rivers while we still suffer from floods and droughts every single year despite being one country. Our roads are pathetic to say the least with stretches of even national highways resembling bullock carts.
We have nothing to show for our 68 years of independence. We still have people who are as poor as there were 68 years ago and that too despite such high no of reservations. The thing is, whether you like it or not, people who want to become better, do so even if they don't get any help and people who don't have the ambition or zeal to rise won't do do inspite of all the money and opportunities thrown at them.
I kinda agree with you that everyone (and not only the poor ) should be provided with basic amenities from the govt. That however has not happened and I don't see that happening any time soon. Basic amenities for me include affordable housing, proper roads, electricity, water, schools and medical facility.
We haven't been able to provide even these basic things in 68 yeas and that is just beyond disgrace. And I still don't see anything being done regarding these basic rights.
derp
Forerunner
I think this is a view many of the urban majority has. I think the urbans take things for granted . you are not at all concerned with the fact that our economy is one of the fastest growing economies of the world? You talk of US and EU but you don't see the carelessness and irresponsibility which has forced the whole world into recession and has destabilized many a nation? If we compare the ratio ( development/time of freedom.) I think we have fared well compared to many nations...
rdst_1
Juggernaut
Most of the people who have replied in this thread have high paying jobs. How can you relate any of them to the pics above.
Also, what things, in your opinion should the urban population be thankful for, for which they aren't paying taxes.
On top of that, please let me know of one urban area in India which has been properly planned and that plan has been followed to the tee.
derp
Forerunner
Let me enumerate
1) "high paying" jobs inspite of having a volatile global economy.
2) due to the buoyant economies, bigger and better companies are coming in, thus greater job opportunities to satiate their wordly needs.
3) access to global technology , thanks to the invigorated initiatives of the government to integrate the best of all worlds.
4) freedom to start their own enterprises with ease. Thanks to the start up and stand up India programmes.
5) better health and life expectancy thanks to the improvement in science and tech, specially medical science.
Do you need more....[DOUBLEPOST=1451924130][/DOUBLEPOST]What's with the freebies? You have to pay taxes to support the government in order to let it serve you! The purpose of a government is to effectively manage ourselves! Of the people, by the people and for the people ...
@derp
Sorry, the problem with you is that you come of as a kid (an immature brat to say) trying to speak about things you have no understanding about. I suggest growing up a bit and letting a brain grow in your head and getting a better understanding of the world before you talk. You arguments are not excusable unless you are less than 12 years old.
First of all, stop the drama about soldiers. Why do you think some other citizens job or contribution is less important than a soldiers? The solider has a nation to protect and a salary for doing so because the people are *the* nation. They are not less or more important than any of us. They risk their lives to earn a living for their families, not for the grand cause of protecting you with their life. If some body puts a gun at their loved ones and ask them to chose between their own family or some unknown person that they have never seen in their life (from whose taxes they were being paid their salaries), Who do you they think they will chose?
Soldiers deserve fair treatment just like the rest of us. It is disrespect to talk about lives lost during line of duty (like some congress politicians said that they are paid to sacrifice their lives) or to deny them their dues after years of service. But at the same time, don't try to undermine the role of others that contribute to the country. The nation does not exist because of soldiers, soldiers exist because of the nation.
Secondly, benefits and programs of the govt should be meaningful and work towards uplifting the people even if they are not the tax payers, not for spoiling people or to be siphoned off for people who do not deserve them because they happen to be their vote bank. This is the problem. The people who need help are never getting any.
I asked you a question in the last post. You didn't answer. I am asking you again.
Let me amend it a bit more, Lets say you typically donate 5000/- every month to fund education of a few orphaned kids so that they can stand on their own feet later and because of you taking the brunt of the bills of others who don't deserve it, you can no longer donate for that cause. Do you think you should keep quiet and pay up or do you think you should protest? Why should you protest?
Every paisa of tax spent for the benefit of a sincere tax payer is well deserved. There are no if's and but's about it. It is their money after all. Every paisa spent on a tax dodger is money that is being denied from some body else who deserves and needs it more, whether its a tax payer or a poor person who needs help. That's why its important how the tax money is spent. How is spending on tax dodgers any different than some politician pocketing it in their Swiss account?
In another thread you argued that religious institutions like temples which have massive amounts of funds stowed away should not have to share their funds with govt for the common good because people's sentiments would be hurt. But you want people who pay the taxes to shut up and not question how its used? Do you realize how stupid that sounds?
I personally pay more taxes than I need to. I don't claim exemptions on any of the donations that I make (which fund education for a few children and for a few other causes) because I think these donations are for the causes I believe in and govt should not get less tax because of it. In total, I pay 3 times as much tax as most people who are in my same income level since many evade taxes. I have no problem paying taxes, but want I want in return is that my taxes are being utilized properly and I have every right to question how its utilized.
Creating an environment of equal opportunity for every one to improve their quality of life with each generation is what is required, not throwing money into random projects and programs where half of it goes into the pockets of bureaucrats and politicians and the other half into the hands who don't either need or deserve it just for the purpose of building an image for themselves or to create an vote bank.
These are all simple concepts, but your immature brain has to yet to comprehend them.
Exactly my point. That should apply to everyone who are deemed to be liable to pay taxes and not to selectively some people.
In fact everybody with a income should pay taxes. There is no reason to exempt anybody from paying taxes. Even a flat 2~5% tax on everybody with an income in the country would yield several times over revenues to the govt than our present system without burdening anybody.
Sorry, the problem with you is that you come of as a kid (an immature brat to say) trying to speak about things you have no understanding about. I suggest growing up a bit and letting a brain grow in your head and getting a better understanding of the world before you talk. You arguments are not excusable unless you are less than 12 years old.
First of all, stop the drama about soldiers. Why do you think some other citizens job or contribution is less important than a soldiers? The solider has a nation to protect and a salary for doing so because the people are *the* nation. They are not less or more important than any of us. They risk their lives to earn a living for their families, not for the grand cause of protecting you with their life. If some body puts a gun at their loved ones and ask them to chose between their own family or some unknown person that they have never seen in their life (from whose taxes they were being paid their salaries), Who do you they think they will chose?
Soldiers deserve fair treatment just like the rest of us. It is disrespect to talk about lives lost during line of duty (like some congress politicians said that they are paid to sacrifice their lives) or to deny them their dues after years of service. But at the same time, don't try to undermine the role of others that contribute to the country. The nation does not exist because of soldiers, soldiers exist because of the nation.
Secondly, benefits and programs of the govt should be meaningful and work towards uplifting the people even if they are not the tax payers, not for spoiling people or to be siphoned off for people who do not deserve them because they happen to be their vote bank. This is the problem. The people who need help are never getting any.
I asked you a question in the last post. You didn't answer. I am asking you again.
Let me amend it a bit more, Lets say you typically donate 5000/- every month to fund education of a few orphaned kids so that they can stand on their own feet later and because of you taking the brunt of the bills of others who don't deserve it, you can no longer donate for that cause. Do you think you should keep quiet and pay up or do you think you should protest? Why should you protest?
Every paisa of tax spent for the benefit of a sincere tax payer is well deserved. There are no if's and but's about it. It is their money after all. Every paisa spent on a tax dodger is money that is being denied from some body else who deserves and needs it more, whether its a tax payer or a poor person who needs help. That's why its important how the tax money is spent. How is spending on tax dodgers any different than some politician pocketing it in their Swiss account?
In another thread you argued that religious institutions like temples which have massive amounts of funds stowed away should not have to share their funds with govt for the common good because people's sentiments would be hurt. But you want people who pay the taxes to shut up and not question how its used? Do you realize how stupid that sounds?
I personally pay more taxes than I need to. I don't claim exemptions on any of the donations that I make (which fund education for a few children and for a few other causes) because I think these donations are for the causes I believe in and govt should not get less tax because of it. In total, I pay 3 times as much tax as most people who are in my same income level since many evade taxes. I have no problem paying taxes, but want I want in return is that my taxes are being utilized properly and I have every right to question how its utilized.
Creating an environment of equal opportunity for every one to improve their quality of life with each generation is what is required, not throwing money into random projects and programs where half of it goes into the pockets of bureaucrats and politicians and the other half into the hands who don't either need or deserve it just for the purpose of building an image for themselves or to create an vote bank.
These are all simple concepts, but your immature brain has to yet to comprehend them.
Exactly my point. That should apply to everyone who are deemed to be liable to pay taxes and not to selectively some people.
In fact everybody with a income should pay taxes. There is no reason to exempt anybody from paying taxes. Even a flat 2~5% tax on everybody with an income in the country would yield several times over revenues to the govt than our present system without burdening anybody.
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derp
Forerunner
Lmao! Your views are so damn hypocritical. Maybe the term hypocrisy was named after you! You advocate spending thousands of dollars of frivolous pursuits, considering the fact that millions die of poverty every year and still cringe at an increase of 2200 per month in your monthly bills. The money people donate to religious institutes are used for nation building indirectly btw. Firstly, they stash it in banks thus mobilising funds for development of the nation. Secondary, they indulge in social welfare schemes like langars etc which feed thousands. Lastly, you can never compare philanthropic donations with mindless expenditures. Lol at your logic!
I am sure you are that type of person who would clap like an imbecile when he sees a new nvidia gpu but snub away some needy who just asks for some compassion! Thanks to people like you, the colonial mindset is still prevalent in our nation!
manoja2k
Forerunner
I am paying taxes, ain't I? I am not cribbing about taxes. My grievance is about the way my taxes are getting used. If the taxes would have been properly used then govt. need not have have to look around for funds and that's too from people who are already doing their bit for the country/society. Govt is not doing enough and fast enough to manage the money we have already paid. Let it first do the needful to stop wastage and leakage of money and take money from people who are not doing their bit even if they are more than capable.
As long as that's not happening I am going to protest whenever I realize that Govt is trying to take away some more of my money no matter how hard the govt/people try to sell me the idea of patriotism and all such emotional crap.
Also please remember, most of us have been playing along with the govt's policies hoping that things will improve. We are yet to feel satisfied with the way things have turned out. I believe now the time has come that Govt. has to prove itself first before expecting more contribution from us.
As long as that's not happening I am going to protest whenever I realize that Govt is trying to take away some more of my money no matter how hard the govt/people try to sell me the idea of patriotism and all such emotional crap.
Also please remember, most of us have been playing along with the govt's policies hoping that things will improve. We are yet to feel satisfied with the way things have turned out. I believe now the time has come that Govt. has to prove itself first before expecting more contribution from us.
rdst_1
Juggernaut
There is no point in trying to convince this guy. He has just landed from the Himalayas and wishes everyone in India should stop enjoying their hard earned legal money and just donate it so that the politicians can keep filling there pockets.
Oh wait, but we already have a Baba Ramdev who kept shouting about retrieval of black money and is now quietly enjoying his Z security on his private island.
Tough luck kid, you'll have to find a new avatar to emulate.
Oh wait, but we already have a Baba Ramdev who kept shouting about retrieval of black money and is now quietly enjoying his Z security on his private island.
Tough luck kid, you'll have to find a new avatar to emulate.
Why do you feel the need to prove that you are an idiot every time you open your mouth? I mean it feels like putting a brain in your head would improve the average IQ of the entire human race. Sorry, but your whole existence is a waste of oxygen and so many other resources that are better utilized by some other human or other animal.
What one does with their money is up to them. There is no bloody reason for anybody to give their earned money for any cause. People may still support causes that they believe in, but not out of any compulsion. I donate a considerable amount of money every year to get children educated and few other things and I don't do it for silly reasons coming out of religious beliefs. I do not take tax exemptions on those donations either because I believe that taxes are also important.
Also FYI, religious donations do not even count as philanthropy. Also, just like govt funds, due to lack of proper accountability, funds of religious institutions are abused and rarely do they get used for meaningful purposes like philanthropy. Your other argument of indirect use is laughable at best. Every one has their money in banks that is circulated around for nation building. That is not some sort of achievement for religious institutions.
Taxes on the other hand are a different matter. Citizens are duty bound to pay taxes, But at the same time, they also have a right to know how their taxes are utilized and question when they are not being utilized properly. Tax money is not meant to thrown around arbitrarily to help govt's gain some political brownie points.
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Well, to be honest, I just hope for his own sake that he is probably just an immature brat aged 15 or under, still living of his parents money which would explain his lack of understanding of the value of money. In one line he says, "think of people in poverty" and in another he makes light of 2000 Rupees and says people should not question even if their money is being wasted on those who don't deserve it instead of being used for those who need it. He doesn't think what those 2000 Rs mean to somebody who barely has anything to eat or to the orphan kind who wants to get an education. He will understand better when he gets a job and a life of his own and starts earning his own money.
However, If he is anymore than 15 years old, then he has no excuse to be categorized among the species of humans.
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derp
Forerunner
Lolwhat? A person with more than 10lpa salary with such conditions? Much wow. Much logic!
derp
Forerunner
Thats what I am saying. Giving up lpg subsidy would hit you by only 2200 per month which if you earn >10lpa is nothing. Also, I can't dictate you how spend your personal income but how can a person spend so frivolously when his own compatriot is dying out of sheer hunger? I thought India is the birthplace of saints like Buddha , who gave up his riches looking at the grave condition of poor.
Further, you do acknowledge the fact that your view on taxes is narrow and selfish one. Finally, when the government has woken up, you are terming the reduction of subsidy leakages as a scam! Tell me, what do you propose the government should do in the short term to ease the exchequer and also uplift the poor? They have devised the mechanisms like DBT and linking it with AADHAR card for eliminating pilferage only! Why are you being so pessimistic?[DOUBLEPOST=1452005913][/DOUBLEPOST]Also, people have poured out that they work hard and have five houses and what not. Let me assure you that it is impossible to amass so much wealth in our country with 100% white money. So all those claims are bull crap! I am sure that not all of "them" pay 100% of tax they ought to! They all save/hide tax one way or the other. So the false claims of being righteous is a pool of putrid crap![DOUBLEPOST=1452006048][/DOUBLEPOST]And that's the reason i am calling them hypocrites!
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derp
Forerunner
Yes. I have actually. I have also heard of shadow economy, tax evasion, red tapism to name a few...
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