'Rapes prevalent in India not in Bharat' - RSS chief

[OinkBoink]

From The Hindu (dated Jan 5th, 2013):

"RSS chief Mohan Bhagwat has said rapes are prevalent primarily in 'India' due to western influence and that such crimes did not happen in 'Bharat' i.e rural India."
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Are these people out of their friggin' minds?

Why do many people in this country illogically associate 'westernization' (which is such a broad term it encompasses all sorts of things, both positive and negative) with things like alcohol, drugs, rapes etc. ? These things have been prevalent in this country even before the Brits ever came here.

What about those lorry drivers and rickshaw-walas who get drunk on cheap liquor, go home, beat their wives up and harass them for dowry/money etc. ? What exposure do these people even have to 'western' influences ?

Also, in the same way this pseudo-logic of associating the west with all the (perceivedly) horrible things out there is used, why can't one go to the other extreme and associate, in just as illogical a manner, the west with scientific thinking, rationality, progress, sexual emancipation etc. ?

No, I am NOT anti-Indian, pro-western. That would be ridiculous. I'm just trying to be objective.

If we stop using ideas based on where they originated, we might as well stop using antibiotics, cars, computers, cell phones and just about everything else that makes life livable.

For example, the neurologist Vilayanur Subramanian Ramachandran came up with the mirror box technique to alleviate distress in amputees who have phantom limb pain. Does this mean we should consider this achievement as an instance of the 'Indianisation' of 'western science' and bar all white people who could potentially benefit from this technique from using it ? That would seem ludicrous to most minds. But when it comes to adopting anything that first came from the west, many Indians hesitate and start blaming their 'culture' (another blanket term) , even if what is being adopted is objectively right.

Both the west and India (and other parts of the world really) have all sorts of people and these people come up with all sorts of ideas. Both good and bad. By using blanket terms like 'westernisation' and 'Indianisation' we are inhibiting change/progress, doing a disservice to great ideas and ultimately causing damage to ourselves.

Also, might I add, in the same terminology of the RSS chief, that even in 'India' it is more likely these 'Bharat' types who are raping 'Indians'. The recent case in Delhi would be an example.


I remember in Mangalore, ABVP (I think it was them or maybe someone else) activists beat up people in a certain pub under the garb of protecting Indian culture. They even partially stripped some girls in some cases.

One of the biggest issues is, there is no unity amongst us civilised/educated people against these dihati types. Till we don't stand up together they will harass our men, women and children.



Wish I could edit the title and put a comma in between 'India' and 'not'.

 

[blkrb0t]

When I first read this yesterday:

 

[Sub]

How do morons like this get to be leaders of political parties?

 

[blkrb0t]

How do morons like this get to be leaders of political parties?

RSS is not a political party as such, though they do have clout over a large amount of communal parties such as BJP. It's a right-wing religious nationalist group. They lean more towards extremism - think Taliban/Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan, or IRA in Ireland.

 

[kippu]

i have really had enough of rape news...

 

[OinkBoink]

This isn't just about rape. It's about mindsets. It just happens to be that the recent rape incidents have brought the mindsets of many people in this country to the forefront.

 

[ALPHA17]

Good topic @OinkBoink Sire.

This one statement by a fictitious character has more weight on this topic than most logical explanations --

“People, like to invent monsters and monstrosities. Then they seem less monstrous themselves. When they get blind-drunk, cheat, steal, beat their wives, starve an old woman, when they kill a trapped fox with an axe or riddle the last existing unicorn with arrows, they like to think that the Bane entering cottages at daybreak is more monstrous than they are. They feel better then. They find it easier to live.”

Basically it is a common human mindset of moral superiority and I am not right and cannot come up with a logical explanation so take this and don't discount / discredit me as wrong.

The more absurd part about such statements is that almost always after these issues go viral a subordinate comes up and states -- the Leader / prachark / organizer / President was quoted out of context and he meant something else, if this is the case our country has the biggest cases of spoonerism all the time. Apart from serious focussing and attention span shortages.

 

[Rockfella]

call it a blend of blame game and ping pong

 

[HailStonE]

25 years' court data proves RSS chief wrong; 75% of rape convicts from 'Bharat' - The Times of India

 

[DigitalDude]

i'm pretty sure none of you listened to the actual speech of RSS chief. it's available in youtube. he never said anything about urban-rural divide or anything like that. he was talking about an 'idea of bharat' (like 'idea of india'). where values are still given importance and culture is rich. unlike what misogynists and hypocrites discuss in the TV studios, values and culture are not just for women, it is more important for men or society as a whole. that is what he was implying. one may not completely agree with RSS chief but stop giving importance to fabricated news and sensationalism by the media. the corporate media thrives on sensationalism and wants to fully take advantage of the public outrage from the recent brutal rape incident. please dont swallow media bait hook line and sinker. RSS chief gives so many speeches daily with very valid criticisms of the govt and on current issues why those are not reported with such zeal? all these are to distract the public from the actual case. if anyone thinks that the perpertrators of the recent brutal rape will just be sentenced to the maximum punishment, it is just wishful thinking. the judicial process is not sensational. the attention of people should be fully on how the case proceeds or get derails and not on trivial issues like these. it is being found out that the video excerpt telecasted is even fabricated.

#OinkBoink there is a difference between 'westernisation' and 'modernisation'. society, culture, quality of life can degenerate/degrade even with scientific/technological advances so both are not mixed in discussions of westernisation (thinking). that does not mean discrediting or not recognising the contributions of the west (geographical location/people) in science/technology. so we dont stop using ideas based on where they are originated but whether they are good or bad/whether they lead to a happy and just society or not. all modern thinking need not just ape western thinking we need not lose our individuality in that by still retaining the good from our own culture and value system. if you agree that society and lifestyle has degenerated, then you agree with most of RSS chief's view in that video. as simple as that. and what do you mean by before the brits arrived? who were there is most places before the brits arrived? or what is the data of liquor consumption and crime rates at that time? was the top revenue generator for many states at that time was the sale of liquor like the present (eg: TN, AP, kerela, UP)? for example there is even no records/reports of caste violence before the brits arrived. that should say something. let us not shoot in the dark. there should be some reference point to compare with.

and #blkrb0t FYI RSS is the largest social service organisation in India which happens to be based on nationalistic thoughts and does not limit its membership based on religion or religious conversion like other christian/islamic organisations do. there are so many RSS muslim volunteers. stop spreading fud against it by comparing it to islamic terrorist organisations. and what qualifies to be communal? alliance with islamic parties and pandering to islamic votebank is not communal? 'extremism' do you even realise it's meaning or just parroting what media feeds you.



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[OinkBoink]

#OinkBoink there is a difference between 'westernisation' and 'modernisation'. society, culture, quality of life can degenerate/degrade even with scientific/technological advances so both are not mixed in discussions of westernisation (thinking). that does not mean discrediting or not recognising the contributions of the west (geographical location/people) in science/technology. all modern thinking need not just ape western thinking we need not lose our individuality in that by still retaining the good from our own culture and value system. if you agree that society and lifestyle has degenerated, then you agree with most of RSS chief's view in that video. as simple as that. and what do you mean by before the brits arrived? who were there is most places before the brits arrived? or what is the data of liquor consumption and crime rates at that time? was the top revenue generator for many states at that time was the sale of liquor like the present (eg: TN, AP, kerela, UP)? for example there is even no records/reports of caste violence before the brits arrived. that should say something. let us not shoot in the dark. there should be some reference point to compare with.

Of course there is a difference between westernization and modernisation. But many people often associate the word 'westernisation' with all the ills in the west or all the bad things that western people do.

Alcohol, marijuana and opium were used in India even before the Brits set foot here.

Also can you please tell me what you mean by 'our culture' and 'our value system'. I'm Indian too but I bet my culture and value system differ from yours in some way or the other. Values are individual to people. Culture is roughly, the average of those values (and arts and stuff like that), that people in a given region have.

Also, I do not think that society and the lifestyles of people have degenerated. On an average, I think they have improved.

Being charitable is a good thing irrespective of who you are or which organisation you come from (even if you're from the RSS). But why do you need to have Hindu principles/ideologies at the core of your organisation to be charitable ?

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and what do you mean by before the brits arrived? who were there is most places before the brits arrived? or what is the data of liquor consumption and crime rates at that time? was the top revenue generator for many states at that time was the sale of liquor like the present (eg: TN, AP, kerela, UP)? for example there is even no records/reports of caste violence before the brits arrived. that should say something. let us not shoot in the dark. there should be some reference point to compare with.

What about those lorry drivers and rickshaw-walas who get drunk on cheap liquor, go home, beat their wives up and harass them for dowry/money etc. ? What about the tons of rural folk (or rural-like folk in cities) who consume alcohol? What exposure do these people even have to 'western' influences ? I bet they contribute heavily to liquor consumption data (more than the rest of us, I daresay) .

"No caste violence before the Brits" . One could easily dispute that. The fact that we even had castes is a disgrace.

BTW, I like metal more than I like Bollywood music (or even Indian carnatic music let's say). Do you think I'm blindly aping the west ?

 

[DigitalDude]

Of course there is a difference between westernization and modernisation. But many people often associate the word 'westernisation' with all the ills in the west or all the bad things that western people do.

Alcohol, marijuana and opium were used in India even before the Brits set foot here.

'many people often associate' yes and there is a reason for it. people have the tendency to prioritise the bad things. that's how we as a species survive, important to know the bad things/dangers that has potential to put an end to us. for example consumers who have negative experiences with the products are most likely to post it online/share etc. western thinking is being sold to us as the avatar of modernisation so reasonable critism of westernisation definitely will be full of discussion about its ills. it's natural. while the good that we assimilate is going to do no harm afterall it's good d'oh

'used in India' I agree (yes even India was top in gunpower and weapons). my question is to what extent or were they associated with triumph, success, heroism or happiness ?

Also can you please tell me what you mean by 'our culture' and 'our value system'. I'm Indian too but I bet my culture and value system differ from yours in some way or the other. Values are individual to people. Culture is roughly, the average of those values (and arts and stuff like that), that people in a given region have.

'average of those' there you said it. that sums up 'ancient india'. whole of indian subcontinent had almost similar culture and value system commonly called as the 'dharmic systems' yes they have intricacies based on region and also regional tribes but when one has to compare it with totally different thinking like 'western thinking' you can collectively call indian culture/value system as a whole. btw culture is not just creative arts and value system is not entirely personal... again yes it has intricacies based on individual morality and paradigm.

Also, I do not think that society and the lifestyles of people have degenerated. On an average, I think they have improved.

well I would say that you are living in a protected cocoon of 'normalcy bias' thinking and far removed from harsh ground realities. improved compared to what? and btw what is your age?

Being charitable is a good thing irrespective of who you are or which organisation you come from (even if you're from the RSS). But why do you need to have Hindu principles/ideologies at the core of your organisation to be charitable ?

why not? why one need not have hindu principles or ideologies if they are good. why should it not be associated with hindu spiritual/moral teachings which are the oldest known. why just evils are branded as with a 'hindu society' but the goodness in hindu teachings should not be referred to as being 'hindu'? what is the necessity to debrand ourselves from our past in every action of ours? this is the thinking cultured by our colonial system of education. we are the natives of this land not settlers.



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[OinkBoink]

My age is irrelevant (it makes for a very good pointless personal attack). My arguments, if necessary, can be discredited on the basis of their own merit.

What, in your view, is the difference between western thinking and Indian thinking ?

Can you please, point by point, in your view, list the tenets of the Indian value system ?

I'm aware of harsh ground realities, sorry. I've lived for 2 years in hostels with pretty poor people (children of farmers, kirana shop owners etc.)

By your own logic, society has degenerated? Degenerated compared to what?

Good principles are good because they are good because they are good. Not because they are Hindu or Christian or Muslim or whatever.

Also, you did not answer : I like metal more than I like Bollywood music (or even Indian carnatic music let's say). Do you think I'm blindly aping the west ?

Every 'native' of a land has come from somewhere else. If we go back far enough in evolution, we're all from Africa.

You've selectively answered my points. Many of the answers to your questions were in my post prior to this itself.

You've said nothing about the rural folk (or rural like folk in cities, people hardly influenced by the west) consuming lots of alcohol and contributing heavily to liquor consumption data.

 

[Superbad]

i find it interesting that one gets fed , to whatever is served, least concern is checking the actual footage.

the topic is misinterpreted and played upon 100s of time, to polarise a section .

the same can be said of a some owaisi , but nobody talks about him.

these kind of creatures do more harm to the society. an eg the recent spate of violence against the police in mumbai had happened on the backdrop of similar instigation.

 

[OinkBoink]

Can someone please tell me how the RSS chief has been misinterpreted/misquoted/taken out of context in a nut shell ? I do not know if the RSS chief has truly been misinterpreted/misquoted. But ALPHA17 puts it nicely:

The more absurd part about such statements is that almost always after these issues go viral a subordinate comes up and states -- the Leader / prachark / organizer / President was quoted out of context and he meant something else, if this is the case our country has the biggest cases of spoonerism all the time. Apart from serious focussing and attention span shortages.

It's not about the RSS chief or X or Y saying stuff like this. It's equally deplorable in all cases.

 

[DigitalDude]

What about those lorry drivers and rickshaw-walas who get drunk on cheap liquor, go home, beat their wives up and harass them for dowry/money etc. ? What about the tons of rural folk (or rural-like folk in cities) who consume alcohol? What exposure do these people even have to 'western' influences ? I bet they contribute heavily to liquor consumption data (more than the rest of us, I daresay) .

"No caste violence before the Brits" . One could easily dispute that. The fact that we even had castes is a disgrace.

BTW, I like metal more than I like Bollywood music (or even Indian carnatic music let's say). Do you think I'm blindly aping the west ?

yes those lorry drivers etc are far removed from culture of self-restraint, equality to women, upholding 'dharma' etc they are not in the idea of bharat that mohan bhagawat talks about. can you quantify the amount of people who dont watch movies in India ? take TN (and it's CMs) as example as to what extent movies penetrate indian society and thinking.

btw if you really understand how much our history was/is distorted by the christian missionary indologists of the colonial era, then you will realise how something that is in the present thinking called as 'caste' was constructed. the original 'caste' has nothing to do with the present abomination. nor was caste or the scriptural varna was a bad thing. it is the 'discrimination' in the negative sense is the part that is the radio active waste people cannot fathom..... discrimination based on caste, gender, region, language, religion, wealth, skin colour etc etc the list is long enough. this is a big topic. you might get a good perspective if you read 'Breaking India' by rajiv malhotra.


regarding music. No you may not be blindly aping the west. it may be your individual taste in music or your soul responds with joy or peace with that. but one cannot clearly come to a conclusion that you completely like the music on your own volition and not because it is the cool thing to do to get recognition or to identify with your group of friends i'm just pointing out how much is being shoved on our face/marketed to our minds/thrown into our stomach without any intelligent scrutiny. subliminal advertising. the eg. that you are providing here 'western music' is just a very small part of the puzzle. with scales like these we are giving importance to negligible issues and failing to see the big picture. a lot of things we really like... but a lot of things we like because we are made to think that we like them hope you understand my point on a broader construct and not limit it to just music as I don't have scholarly writing skills to capture my exact thoughts in words.


Edit: I'm just seeing your new post. so let me add.

'personal attack' ? why where. I have no intentions of that. I just want to estimate how much you might have encountered in society.

I can't educate you on indian value system nor how it differs with western thinking. find a different outlet.

those are not harsh realities. infact in my view being poor is not a harsh reality. you are concentrating more on the physical suffering aspect. which is just a tip of the iceberg.

degenerated from every instance of our past. in blind greed for more of everything without valuing personal virtues like honesty, courage, individual respect etc. just an example.

i was typing before you posted that.

no. fossils and artefacts several million years old have been discovered in many excavation sites in India like undersea dwaraka, puhar off-coast of chennai, adichanallur etc i'm just giving names out of my memory but this is a separate discussion. african origin theory is not sacrosanct nor exempted from scientific scrutiny. but these things wont be given importance in media because as a country we only like to outrage on trivial issues, movies and cricket.

i was typing before you posted that.

i was typing before you posted that.



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[pradeep200417]

I mean it is always like this. The media as usual is the CONGRESS's puppets. They never even went through the entire speech.
What Mohan Bhagwat meant is the moral values which are missing. That's what he meant by Bharat(values Exist) and India(No Values).

I find it even more amazing when the so called self declared Pseudo Secular people and the Media kept mum about Akbaruddin Owaisi's barbaric comments, but when someone like Mohan Bhagwat comments, they dont leave any chance to mis-quote him.

 

[OinkBoink]

All I agree with is what is objectively and rationally right. That which can be backed up with true evidence combined with correct logical thinking. I'm neither pro-Indian nor pro-western.

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but one cannot clearly come to a conclusion that you completely like the music on your own volition and not because it is the cool thing to do to get recognition or to identify with your group of friends

Most of my friends (like most other Indian people) hardly listen to metal. Also, I can appreciate a good piece of music (or art or ideas) irrespective of which part of the world it comes from. But we have subjective preferences and tastes.

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I find it even more amazing when the so called self declared Pseudo Secular people and the Media kept mum about Akbaruddin Owaisi's barbaric comments, but when someone like Mohan Bhagwat comments, they dont leave any chance to mis-quote him.

It's not about the RSS chief or X or Y saying stuff like this. It's equally deplorable in all cases.

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african origin theory is not sacrosanct not exempted from scientific scrutiny.

Of course it isn't and that's the beauty of science. Things are always questioned. But in this instance, it's a trivial issue where humans originated. You said that we're natives and not settlers. I wanted to point out that even these natives once settled here from somewhere else.

We have this notion that this country belongs to us (or any country belongs to any bunch of people for that matter) . A country is just a piece of the ground where people have settled. It is a human boundary that nature does not recognise. It is we humans who have carved and who recognise countries.

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I can't educate you on indian value system nor how it differs with western thinking. find a different outlet.

The fact that you can't 'educate' me on the Indian value system throws light on the fact that you probably don't even know what the Indian value system is. I suspect you're promoting your own individual values/personal opinions under the garb of the 'Indian Value System'. Maybe I'm wrong. But I'm yet to hear a rational answer supporting your views. All I get is convoluted answers with no specificity.

 

[ALPHA17]

@OinkBoink no point trying to save this thread mate, it is off the rails now.

We will have excellent gems like this repeated again and again --

The media as usual is the CONGRESS's puppets. They never even went through the entire speech.
What Mohan Bhagwat meant is the moral values which are missing. That's what he meant by Bharat(values Exist) and India(No Values).

I find it even more amazing when the so called self declared Pseudo Secular people and the Media kept mum about Akbaruddin Owaisi's barbaric comments, but when someone like Mohan Bhagwat comments, they dont leave any chance to mis-quote him.

^^ HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Irony of the fact that the same people complain about excesses in other regimes.

The very idea of separating 'India' and 'Bharat' is a joke in itself.

Degenerated values, we are all moving in that direction of 'materialism'. Unless all of a sudden you desire to drop the computer you are typing on, the handset you are texting on and the internet connection on which you are viewing this post.

yes even India was top in gunpower and weapons. [/B]my question is to what extent or were they associated with triumph, success, heroism or happiness ?

'average of those' there you said it. that sums up 'ancient india'. whole of indian subcontinent had almost similar culture and value system commonly called as the 'dharmic systems' yes they have intricacies based on region and also regional tribes but when one has to compare it with totally different thinking like 'western thinking' you can collectively call indian culture/value system as a whole. btw culture is not just creative arts and value system is not entirely personal... again yes it has intricacies based on individual morality and paradigm.

You seriously need to repeat history, India was outclassed long ago in gun-powder based systems by the Europeans. If you want to go into the nitty-gritty they had invented rifling when the majority of our gunpowder arsenal was based on smooth-bore blunderbuss type weapons that debuted towards the end of the Renaissance era.

Battle tactics had severely changed, while Indian generalship transferred via-lineage and the feudal mannerism the Western system thanks to the sweeping changes of the Renaissance had realized that the Officer system (no matter how skewed) was more efficient and professional.

India never had a standing Army prior to the European.

Wootz steel was where India was ahead, it is said it never rusted.

About culture system again you are speaking as if the entire sub-continent was working under a single fixed routine irrespective of who was at top OR as if there was no difference in the societies workings. As if North Indian's of the Plains (Jat's and Rajput's) were the same as the North Indian's of the Hills (I mean Garwahli's and Gorkha's) . The average term used by OinkBoink is true, there is nothing like a fixed 'Dharmic system' that was binding us together, every region had its own flavour and identity and this all culminated to form the 'Indian culture'.

 

[OinkBoink]

The thing I hate is, some of us Indians always try to quote the glories of our past. It's always about Aryabhatta, Sushrutha etc. These people are DEAD! It's about the here and now. It's about how much technology and science we have now. Stop living in the ancient past.

All these people who keep talking about the glories of ancient India and the Vedas etc. are just inhibiting progress. They're ruining everything we as a society need in today's world. Yes, it's nice and encouraging what these ancient Indian scientists achieved but this isn't 500 AD! It's friggin' 2012. Science has come a long, long way since then.