Something is terribly wrong with India's Covid experts

[ibose]

After reading everything, I am unclear on what is the best option to manage this mess ? Shall we let the epidemic play out without vaccination ? I am in Kolkata and stay near the airport. I barely see ppl wearing masks. Even the educated a**holes are still behaving as if its nothing. Or shall we vaccinate only those with RT-PCR negative report ? But then its been said it does not detect all the variants ? Again with the kind of test backlog buildup its taking so long to get the results that you may even end up getting infected in the interim. How do you reduce a caseload in a country with this kind of population density ? Its easy to criticize everything when I think the blame lies with us only.
I stay in Bangalore and had to travel back home for an emergency surgery for my father. According to the guidelines, one has to get a RT-PCR -ve report coming into Kol. Surprise, surprise no one even asked us to see the report. Then the Indigo flight was packed like sardines. Midway through the flight, half of the ppl had their masks and face guards out having tea. After landing, even when the crew repeatedly asked to keep seated and deboard row by row, all the a**holes were up and running for the exit. Sorry but no, one cannot plan for this kind of stupidity.

 

[roofrider]

Well, I don't plan to running to get vaccinated but if an opportunity presents itself and if it's private and not crowded, sure. I don't see how i contribute to the spike here, unless I'm missing something.
Clearly, I've not studied medicine so the obvious won't be obvious to me.

I quickly tried to check the contraindications of AstraZeneca:

Hypersensitivity to the active substance or to any of the excipients listed in section 6.1. :
L-Histidine
L-Histidine hydrochloride monohydrate
Magnesium chloride hexahydrate
Polysorbate 80 (E 433)
Ethanol
Sucrose
Sodium chloride
Disodium edetate (dihydrate)
Water for injections

I don't think a layman will know what that means exactly.

Regardless, you say the problem is getting vaccinated if I'm also asymptomatic, somehow I'm contributing to the spike here? I don't clearly see how. Am I facilitating it's mutation (just speculating and don't want to fuel this idea without proof)? I've not come across this theory before, granted I've not been looking for one.
Need more info on this before I come to a conclusion.

Edit:
Came across this

Search Results

The first stop for professional medicines advice

www.sps.nhs.uk

And this in particular, Vaccinating individuals with COVID-19 or with a history of COVID-19:

Vaccinating individuals with COVID-19 or with a history of COVID-19

Certain groups can be vaccinated where they have already had COVID-19. In some circumstances these individuals may required a COVD-19 test.

www.sps.nhs.uk

"This is to avoid wrongly attributing any new symptom or the progression of symptoms to the vaccine. Ideally vaccination should be deferred until at least four weeks after onset of symptoms or, for those who are asymptomatic, four weeks from the first PCR positive specimen."

If anyone else finds more information, do share. I bet there's more documentation if I could find the above in 3 mins.

@OP, no offense but you're dramatizing rather than being succinct so the important information to be passed on isn't clear cut.

Edit 2: Didn't read the below completely, but given how effective AU and NZ have been, sharing this for more reading.

COVID-19 vaccines: contraindications and precautionary advice

Safety and reactogenicity of COVID-19 vaccines

anmj.org.au

"Vaccination is not recommended for those who are currently infected or for those who have been recently exposed to COVID-19.These recommendations are because of the low likelihood that the body will develop a sufficient immune response within the incubation period, and also the risk of exposing others to COVID-19 at the time of vaccination"

Edit 3: Read your recent post in the other thread OP.
Basically, if you're positive don't go for vaccination until you've fully recovered.
If you're asymptomatic, get a test and wait 4 weeks indoors before vaccination. That was simple enough, wasn't it?

 

[iPwnz]

@red dragon one question about the RT tests, how accurate is it? Or how accurate do you think the tests are? Because some tests taken in my state have shown different results. One guy took the onus to confirm this himself by getting checked twice at different medical institutions without letting the doctors know. He got different results from two different hospitals. He shared this in the media. He's now silent. I suspect the govt to have a hand in this. Hospitals were making a shit ton of money. I wish I could go into this with more details (I fortunately have many friends and people who I know in the field) but I can't due to political problems.
Anyway for now our region is a "bit" lucky that we are isolated from the rest of India. There are cases here and there but like I said "money" is very influential here.
I do agree with your comments. And ICMR is screwed up on the inside now. The once respected medical group is now busy being a puppet to the ruling govt at the centre.

 

[roofrider]

Not able to edit my previous post to make it clear that I know if I'm asymptomatic I can spread it, whether it be during a vaccination or otherwise.
But with all the hoo ha about the dangers of vaccination in this period, it almost seemed like people were advocating anti vaccination, and so I went on a different tangent in the previous post.

 

[red dragon]

Bhai why are u so confused having read some of your post why can’t u clearly reply I asked u if one needs to get the pcr done you are replying IN AN IDEAL WORLD ...YES, IN PANDEMIC, HELL NO, Should one need the pcr before taking vaccine in pandemic or not ?

I'm not confused bro, it's your complete lack of knowledge and experience of pandemic.
Is it even possible to chck RT PCR if you have no symptoms in India? When was the last time you visited a covid hospital?
Visit your nearest hospital and try the same, you will get a very clear answer.
Of course you need PCR before vaccination, but can you get both...99.9 percent chance you don't. Even doctors, who run these machines can't get themselves tested in India due to patient load.
You want some hard facts, I will give you,
A top of the line RT PCR machine can run 10-15k samples every 22 hours ( 2 hours cooling period), but if you run close to 15k samples everyday for 7-8 days,most of them will malfunction.
I know of 2 hospitals ( Apollo and AMRI, one branch) in kolkata, who screwed up their machines. These are the hospitals who have absolutely top notch microbiologists and lab technicians.
If they managed to screw up their machines, I'm pretty darn sure, most roadside labs ( Lal, Reddy etc.) have screwed up their machines days ago and sending samples to Medica Hospital ( they have the largest and most robust system), this is the situation in kolkata, and MUCH worse in Delhi and Mumbai.
This is the reality of a pandemic ( it's not India specific, happened in Spain too with a MUCH STRONGER healthcare system) brother, I can give you very straight answers, but those will just scare and confuse people even more.
What the hell is it so difficult to understand!!??
Are you RT PCR positive?
If yes, no vaccination for you.
Are you not sure of your PCR status?
Most likely you're not. But given the massive transmission rate, you can very well be positive.
If you are positive, there's a high chance vaccine will produce symptoms in you.
If you are negative, you take the vaccine, but there will be no immunity offered at least in next 2 weeks, so you will be equally susceptible to get infected.
Hope this much is clear...
Now do you think the case rise will continue at similar rate for 2 weeks?
If yes, daily count will cross 10 Lakhs/ day and your chance of getting infected ( despite getting the first dose will be at least 3 times higher)
If no, daily count will slowly come down and eventually it will fall below 5 per 100 samples tested. Take as many shots as you want after that!!

Please for God's sake don't think I'm an anti-vaccer. I started my career in WHO with polio mop up rounds in Bihar and Western UP. Besides working in the substance abuse and mental health wing of WHO in EU, vaccination is one of my most important jobs.
Please think for a second how a prophylactic vaccine ( which takes minimum 4 weeks to provide any sort of protection) can actually harm you when you don't know about the extent of the disease in your community.
If you can't think much, just think about this:
Does your doctor prescribe you Hepatitis B vaccine before checking your hep B surface antigen status?
If you still don't understand what I mean....sorry, it's my fault, I give up!!

BTW, Australia is going very slow with vaccination, they are giving away most of their stock to Papua New Guinea. And this is a truly wonderful gesture ( unlike what Modi did, if India, instead of sending vaccines elsewhere, imported as much vaccine as it could and rapidly vaccinated by end of February, early March, some lives could be saved.
Now to cover up the early goof-ups these morons will try to vaccinate everyone during the sharpest peak!!)

 

[belictony]

Bhai why are u so confused having read some of your post why can’t u clearly reply I asked u if one needs to get the pcr done you are replying IN AN IDEAL WORLD ...YES, IN PANDEMIC, HELL NO, Should one need the pcr before taking vaccine in pandemic or not ?

He is pretty much confused and not able to articulate clearly what he wants to convey. Probably a kiddie reading from various articles and trying to show off with half baked information. Many doctors are advising to take vaccine but he Is saying Don’t take vaccine without testing or some postivity and it’s not clearly written

 

[Sands]

I'm not confused bro, it's your complete lack of knowledge and experience of pandemic.
Is it even possible to chck RT PCR if you have no symptoms in India? When was the last time you visited a covid hospital?
Visit your nearest hospital and try the same, you will get a very clear answer.
Of course you need PCR before vaccination, but can you get both...99.9 percent chance you don't. Even doctors, who run these machines can't get themselves tested in India due to patient load.
You want some hard facts, I will give you,
A top of the line RT PCR machine can run 10-15k samples every 22 hours ( 2 hours cooling period), but if you run close to 15k samples everyday for 7-8 days,most of them will malfunction.
I know of 2 hospitals ( Apollo and AMRI, one branch) in kolkata, who screwed up their machines. These are the hospitals who have absolutely top notch microbiologists and lab technicians.
If they managed to screw up their machines, I'm pretty darn sure, most roadside labs ( Lal, Reddy etc.) have screwed up their machines days ago and sending samples to Medica Hospital ( they have the largest and most robust system), this is the situation in kolkata, and MUCH worse in Delhi and Mumbai.
This is the reality of a pandemic ( it's not India specific, happened in Spain too with a MUCH STRONGER healthcare system) brother, I can give you very straight answers, but those will just scare and confuse people even more.
What the hell is it so difficult to understand!!??
Are you RT PCR positive?
If yes, no vaccination for you.
Are you not sure of your PCR status?
Most likely you're not. But given the massive transmission rate, you can very well be positive.
If you are positive, there's a high chance vaccine will produce symptoms in you.
If you are negative, you take the vaccine, but there will be no immunity offered at least in next 2 weeks, so you will be equally susceptible to get infected.
Hope this much is clear...
Now do you think the case rise will continue at similar rate for 2 weeks?
If yes, daily count will cross 10 Lakhs/ day and your chance of getting infected ( despite getting the first dose will be at least 3 times higher)
If no, daily count will slowly come down and eventually it will fall below 5 per 100 samples tested. Take as many shots as you want after that!!

Please for God's sake don't think I'm an anti-vaccer. I started my career in WHO with polio mop up rounds in Bihar and Western UP. Besides working in the substance abuse and mental health wing of WHO in EU, vaccination is one of my most important jobs.
Please think for a second how a prophylactic vaccine ( which takes minimum 4 weeks to provide any sort of protection) can actually harm you when you don't know about the extent of the disease in your community.
If you can't think much, just think about this:
Does your doctor prescribe you Hepatitis B vaccine before checking your hep B surface antigen status?
If you still don't understand what I mean....sorry, it's my fault, I give up!!

Suna tha zara padna sehat ke liye hanikarak hota hai aaj dekh liya.

At least read what I asked, Read again what u last replied to me where I asked something and you only know what u replied.

Anyway this is my last reply on this thread.

 

[belictony]

@vyral_143 pls remove this entire thread. This thread is creating confusion among people which has legal implications as well. Better ask people to refer to government/ doctor guidelines and close this thread.

 

[iPwnz]

In the end its every man for himself because of the govt screw up huh.
BTW a week ago the uncle of my sister's friend who is rich as shit couldn't get any oxygen and plasma on time in Delhi and died. The situation now has become such that no amount of money you have may save you. Just try to protect yourselves as much as you can and tell your family members you live with to take similar precautions.

If you are negative, you take the vaccine, but there will be no immunity offered at least in next 2 weeks, so you will be equally susceptible to get infected.

In the current situation how long would the virus take to take effect inside the body since first infection?
What are your thoughts on the vaccines which are currently available and recommended by the GoI? Call me an ignorant fool but I'm kinda skeptic about the efficacy of the vaccines here . Mainly because of the fact that you don't get an option to choose which to take and the govt's only objective of PR. If I was in EU or US I would definitely take them if I can. But here? Lots of doubts.

 

[red dragon]

Please ask @belictony and @Sands
I'm a kid reading too much!!

@vyral_143 pls remove this entire thread. This thread is creating confusion among people which has legal implications as well. Better ask people to refer to government/ doctor guidelines and close this thread.

Brother, you joined this forum in 2020. I've been around for more than a decade. I have friends here who PM me all the time about health advice, send prescriptions etc.
There is no legal implications of this thread.
No vaccines ever in India has been mandatory even those listed in India's Universal Immunization Protocol.
Did you try to get in touch with your local doctor recently?
Try it....then come back and comment.

 

[belictony]

Section 505(1) of Indian Penal Code, 1860: The punishment for making, publishing or circulating any statement, rumour or report which may cause fear or alarm to the public, or to any section of the public.

Punishment: Imprisonment which may extend to 3 years or fine or both.

Section 66D of Information Technology Act: Whoever, by means for any communication device or computer resource cheats by personating.

..

Read more at:
https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...ofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

Did you try to get in touch with your local doctor recently?
Try it....then come back and comment.

Why exactly should I get in touch with my local doctor? What should I ask him?

 

[roofrider]

I think the point is, don't rush to get vaccinated. Especially in a crowded hospital. Wait for the crowds to reduce.

My parents got their first dose a month back and I hope they're able to get the 2nd shot without much risk.

As far as no immunity for 2 weeks after 1st shot: we should exercise caution and distancing regardless, so I wouldn't say the risk of infection increases because of the 1st shot but rather because of the increasing cases. As long as someone is able to get the vaccine without much risk and stay indoors post that, the risk of infection is no different from someone who didn't get the shot.

 

[Stronk]

cause fear or alarm to the public, or to any section of the public.

Why wasn't this used during demonetisation in 2016, which led to riots even due to people literally having had their saving wiped out, and the amount of black money reduced by basically zero (as declared by rbi themselves)? Where was this when a 4hr notice for lock down was given, when crores of people got all means of jobs lost, and led to widespread alarm and fear and pamicking? And where is this when you are publicly asking people to take vaccine without any precaution, directly contradicting govt.'s instructions (which you so seem to admire and lick the boots of)?

What should I ask him?

Ask him for a psychological evaluation

 

[Decius]

@red dragon - what are your thoughts on this? Is he also suggesting aggressive vaccination in the current situation of raging infection?

 

[roofrider]

If you are positive, there's a high chance vaccine will produce symptoms in you.

This is the only thing I need to find more accurate information on, if it just leads to symptoms or any other complication.
The 2 quotes (from UK & AU) in my previous post pertain to this but convey different things. 1. "to avoid wrongly attributing any new symptom to the vaccine" 2. "because of the low likelihood that the body will develop a sufficient immune response within the incubation period"

 

[belictony]

Ask him for a psychological evaluation

patient should be there for psychological evaluation. Hence let me know when you will come.

Why wasn't this used during demonetisation in 2016, which led to riots even due to people literally having had their saving wiped out, and the amount of black money reduced by basically zero (as declared by rbi themselves)? Where was this when a 4hr notice for lock down was given, when crores of people got all means of jobs lost, and led to widespread alarm and fear and pamicking? And where is this when you are publicly asking people to take vaccine without any precaution, directly contradicting govt.'s instructions (which you so seem to admire and lick the boots of)?

That’s passed through powers granted by act of parliament. If you have any issues with the person using or abusing the power granted to them by an act of parliament, you can initiate a PIL against them, rather than talking about an unrelated topic and suggesting people to get psych. evaluation.

 

[Chaos]

@vyral_143 pls remove this entire thread. This thread is creating confusion among people which has legal implications as well. Better ask people to refer to government/ doctor guidelines and close this thread.

Are you totally brain dead? This is the most useful information I have found so far in a torrent of fecal matter on the web.

The guy you were talking to is a WHO doctor who probably has seen everything on ground regarding this disease.

 

[t3chg33k]

Business News Today: Read Latest Business news, India Business News Live, Share Market & Economy News | The Economic Times

Business news today: Read India Business news Live. Latest Business news and updates on Finance, share market, IPO, economy. Discover Business News Headlines, Top Financial News and more on The Economic Times.

economictimes.indiatimes.com

Have seen so many senior citizens panicking and rushing to get the second dose in a month in midst of shortage and fear of having to compete with the 18+ crowd from May onwards, to the same hospitals which are now overflowing with patients. The communication should be much better than this. Cowin continues to allow people to schedule the second dose (Covishield) at exactly a month and doesn't have any information on the suggested gaps between doses upfront.

On the other hand, a lot of the media articles continue to push for completion of the second dose as if it provides complete immunity. Really not sure how the situation will be come May as there will be a greater portion of the population trying to get panic vaccination.

 

[belictony]

Are you totally brain dead? This is the most useful information I have found so far in a torrent of fecal matter on the web.

stop saying it’s useful information found so far. how would you know this one person‘s opinion is true and the 1000s of people in the govt., leaders, etc saying are false? Why don’t you summarise what you learnt so far. people like and few others above couldn’t understand them clearly.

 

[Chaos]

stop saying it’s useful information found so far. how would you know this one person‘s opinion is true and the 1000s of people in the govt.,
leaders, etc saying are false?

Cos the government doesn't care. As if it wasn't obvious by now based on how this entire mess was handled.

Why don’t you summarise what you learnt so far. people like and few others above couldn’t understand them clearly.

Stay at home at least for the next few weeks! Don't rush in droves to vaccination centers. You would not want to be vaccinated if there is even a remote chance that you are covid positive.

It is also quite obvious by now very many reports are coming negative even when the patient is obviously positive based on symptoms.