War within India - Naxals

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@l33t_5n1p3r_max

The facts are these

1)The maoists or naxals have the support of the people.In this case it is voluntary or else the naxals will not have such a huge army of tribals.How many can you threaten? whether you agree to this or not is immaterial.(you are bringing extraneous data into this argument.This thread is solely concerned with maoists.Read the title of the thread)

2)The imagination that you have if used will lead to a third world war.if you say the chinese are supporting the maoists back it up with proof.Your arguments would hold water with respect to the big communist parties which rule in west bengal and kerala.not here.

rest of your post is extraneous.So no need to respond to that.
 
harayumi:
Sorry to say, most of the articles you posted there are purely speculative.

1. First article from Wikipedia: Just two lines mention about Christian based forced conversions. Rest is about the Naxalite movement. How substantial is this.
2. Second article on Nagaland/Orrisa: Apples are being connected to oranges.Yes Christian missionaries work with the tribals (totally not related to this thread), and the political party is linking them to a menace they cannot handle. Blaming their short comings on someones doings. There is a high probability that they might have rubbed shoulders with the Maoists (same demographics), but mission statements grossly differ. Religion vs. status/rights.
3. Third Article on Foreign NGO funds: Clearly states about funds which are flowing from various sources to India. Now is it our bad luck or good luck, that these nations which give funds are predominantly affiliated to the Christendom. Corollary to this logic would be "let us not work for foreign MNCs, cause the owners are Christians". Please.
4. NGOs are Being Used by Missionaries: Same as above.
5. Niyogi Committee Report: That article is around 54 years old, circa 1956. The Naxal movement began 13 years after this. Totally baseless, and cannot be related to the themes we are discussing here. If you would have read the whole article, it explains the mission statement of this report. It was heavily doctored to align it self to certain ideologies of the same period.
6. Article on Christian Suffering & Church Persecution: If you would have seen the URL to this link it is Suffering & Persecution of Christians & the Persecuted Church - persecution.org. This is advocating the church, and showing the suffering and loss of dominance of the various Christina dominions. How does this show a nexus between Christians missionary builders and Maoists..?
7.Rest of your post. There is no divide and rule happening here. Not sure what you learnt in school (since you mentioned it), but the British were not to aware of an inter continental migration (which till date is doubtful) regarding Aryan and Dravidians. The British did not invent this theory (please help), it has etymological roots else where. I am shocked at your misconception. Plus this is a highly debatable theory, which many doubt in today world and age. And to make it crystal, the caste system was all ready in place, when the Imperialists invaded India. They did nothing to enhance it, or subjugate the philosophy -- it was a tool of manipulation for them. How are Maoists doing the same...?

This this is a general discussion thread, many will pardon you here, cause your post reeked of religious fanaticism and pure prejudice. Be careful. You are sending this thread on a extreme tangent. We all are discussing the same.
 
asingh said:
Blr_p, Sir Gill was quite a failure to tackle the Red faction on their home turf. Not as successful as he was in the Punjab. Read this book, if you can for better insights on the same. It is quite interesting. Red Sun : Travels In Naxalite Country by Sudeep Chakravarti.
You could knock Gill if other solutions were adopted and were shown to ameliorate the situation. But the situation itself has got worse apart from Andhra has it not.

Gill did not fail, as he was never given a chance. Had he been taken on and then showed no results for several years, you could claim he failed.

He was ignored by a govt that did not have the will to make a go at the problem. I cannot find much fault in his recommendations. He nails the problem down to the local police force in the affected areas. Their morale is rock bottom and nothing is being done to address it at all. The Andhras secured their poice stations very well so they could not be knocked off any time the naxals needed weapons. The starting point is strenghtening the police forces in the local area, increasing thier contact with the locals so they have better intel on naxal movements as well as starting thier own intel units specifically for this purpose. If the tribals have no confidence in the police why will they ever trust them ? This breakdwon of law & order is what allows the naxals to completley own the area.

CRPF or any other force cannot hope to know the area better than a local. They are just meant for support the driving force has to be the local police force augmented by paras where reqd.

asingh said:
The fight is what we have to minimize when negotiations begin with the Red team. It will not be easy. Could be utterly impossible in the beginning to even have a beginning.
Its completely misplaced to have any negotiations with the reds about this. They do not represent the people. The talks if there are to be any have to be between the state & the principal stake holders -- the tribals. They have rights like all of us and their right to choose a govt has been severely curtailed.
asingh said:
l33t_5n1p3r_max,.. but I really doubt China is that interested to create insurgency within the state, in order to capture.
Agreed, tho what snipe said prior is valid.

johnie1 said:
1)The maoists or naxals have the support of the people.
How do we know this ? When they run other contesting candidates out of town or threaten their life when standing for election. Where is the choice here ?

johnie1 said:
In this case it is voluntary or else the naxals will not have such a huge army of tribals.
They offer them jobs.

johnie1 said:
How many can you threaten?
An entire population if you are allowed to do so and the state does not stop you.

johnie1 said:
whether you agree to this or not is immaterial.(you are bringing extraneous data into this argument.This thread is solely concerned with maoists.Read the title of the thread)
Actually no, wrt to being forced to accept the writ of the naxals over the govt. he has been spot on. This is the std MO of insurgents everywhere
 
^^
Regarding KPS Gill, it could be true that his recommendations were ignored for being to stiff and hard line. But that is the way he operates. Will do more research on this. Not so I can counter your posts, just want a better understanding. The book I mentioned, has an interesting chapter regarding him -- though is a singular point of view -- of course.

The starting point is strenghtening the police forces in the local area, increasing thier contact with the locals so they have better intel on naxal movements as well as starting thier own intel units specifically for this purpose. If the tribals have no confidence in the police why will they ever trust them ?

This is what is difficult. Beginning that start with the local population. The Maoists have created a 'buffer zone'. Where it is difficult for the state to interact with the locals. Am sure the Maoists have played out their dose of anti establishment propaganda to the people. What I mentioned by negotiations, is start to talk to the Maoists during out three pronged approach. The talk would be in context to the Maoists to themselves, and their release of arms and guerilla warfare. Of course the state should not raise them to a position they desire to be at. They are not the bargaining party.
 
asingh said:
Not so I can counter your posts, just want a better understanding.
This should be the main aim :)

asingh said:
This is what is difficult. Beginning that start with the local population. The Maoists have created a 'buffer zone'. Where it is difficult for the state to interact with the locals. Am sure the Maoists have played out their dose of anti establishment propaganda to the people.
And what if the tribals refuse to accept the naxals propaganda ?

This is the main problem, because then the naxals will make examples out of their family members. In this situation either you support the naxals or die because the state is unable to protect the tribal & his family. In this case tribal support for naxals is more out of sheer survival than conviction.

johnie1 said:
All those links mention support. How much support ?

As snipe said every insurgency has 'support'.

The question whether the naxals represent the tribals remains unanswered.

johnie1 said:
giving jobs does not guarantee loyalty or support.you cannot hold an entire population to ransom.
If you control the territory then its your law or death.

johnie1 said:
there are bound to be cracks.
Those cracks are dispersed and cannot unite to oppose the naxals in a coherent manner.

johnie1 said:
anyways its a never ending argument.
Because the support for naxals by tribals is not in the majority. Otherwise it would be crystal clear. What is clear is the naxals control the territory and anyone that opposes them dies.

johnie1 said:
By force you can only do so much.Without friendly support no insurgency can survive. The truth lies somewhere in between.
The truth is they naxals are a bunch of thugs that live off extortion and share the proceeds with their supporters. They plunder and share the spoils. The more they get, the more personnel they can employ and claim 'support'.

They do not represent the tribals or they would be no need to do it via the bullet instead of the ballot :)
 
^^
Interesting. We are reaching conclusions. It is pretty obvious that the tribal class (who ideally should be at the receiving end) are getting the worst of the deal. Be it lack of state support, state exploitation, Naxal based false promises, Naxal committed atrocities. It is them who are suffering. Both the self proclaimed messiah and governance body(s) are at fault. Now what..? When did the Naxal movement deviate from the original plan of 1967..? Interesting.
 
asingh said:
Army deployment would literally mean civil war: Naxals+supporters vs. the State+Army. What do the Naxals want: upliftment of the the extreme financially lower masses, basic human amenities and facilities. Maoists play with fact (and lure people), that we will get you these basic rights. Should the government do the same. They do try, but why are the Maoists apposing that too. What agenda is there...? I feel this situation has reached a Mexican standoff. State cannot talk to them (insurgent group), they do not agree with the state, will not let prosperity come to the land. Now what....?

wrong. Remember the punjab scenario. Major religious sentiments were in play and was almost lost cause. In spite of a blunder like operation blue star. Use of force and strategy did work a.k.a operation black thunder. right now we are giving them too much time and space that they are able to move strategically for support and arms and are becoming stronger. Plus our inaction will give away any remainin support in that region. They will ultimately develop links with islamic terrorists groups and carry out their (islamic terrorist) agenda similar to ulfa. ulfa already has links with isi and bangladesh.
And the saddest part. . . Whatever i wrote is based upon info available before the recent attacks. And if this is available in the public domain, the goverments were advised well in advance.
 
^^

You seen the expanse of the Red Corridor compared to what was happening that time in the Punjab. In a democratic country -- army cannot be deployed on the whim. Army deployment on civil land (even if infested by Naxals), put the country on the world radar -- really close to civil war. The Indian Army rejected this idea, when the government approached them.
 
asingh said:
It is pretty obvious that the tribal class (who ideally should be at the receiving end) are getting the worst of the deal. Be it lack of state support, state exploitation, Naxal based false promises, Naxal committed atrocities. It is them who are suffering. Both the self proclaimed messiah and governance body(s) are at fault.
The tribals have been held back since colonial times as this article indicates and it questions the current wisdom wrt to economic development.

New Delhi’s counter-insurgency strategy is rooted in a flawed assumption—development in the eastern and central tribal heartlands will help eradicate adivasi poverty and destroy the Naxalite’s support base. Neither is likely to happen. Without a radical overhaul of the area’s governance structure, development will do little more than accelerate dislocation and deepen alienation. What India needs to do is provide greater autonomy to the adivasis and improved social infrastructure in the Naxalite heartland. While recent developments such as Forest Rights Act, granting formal land titles to adivasis, are signs that things may be changing, so far it has been a case of too little too late. The adivasi themselves must be given an increased role and say in both forest management and investment.

The development component in the govts ongoing operations is still very vague at this point and the mechanisms to be successful are yet to be put in place. This article recommends the creation of a new agency to fill in the gaps after the armed operations are concluded. The authors flesh out the ideas in more detail here.
 
he maoists or naxals have the support of the people.In this case it is voluntary or else the naxals will not have such a huge army of tribals.

Ever heard of forced conscription? Again, your "news" is limited to BBC and Times Now, you lack the ability to comprehend what is present outside of the news headlines. It's not your fault too, not many people have time to waste on reading up useless stuff such as terrorism and COIN ops and you clearly seem to be one of them.

How many can you threaten?

An entire nation if you have to..have you heard about a certain conflict in Chechnya? The President of that nation, Ramzan khadyrov is himself the son of an assasinated-ex chechen militant. He pledges his alliance to Russia. Now do you think that allegiance is because he suddenly started liking Putin or the fact that the FSB threatened to spill his guts out on the sidewalks?? The dude now controls whatever is there of Chechnya's police, army and paramilitary. Might and fear make respect, there is absolutely nothing that you cannot achieve once people fear you.

if you say the chinese are supporting the maoists back it up with proof.

If by proof you mean links then I can get you at least 10 different links claiming Chinese support to them lol..

CHINA: SIGNS OF ULTRA-LEFTIST SUPPORT TO MAOISTS OF INDIA AND NEPAL.

China supplying arms to Maoists: India

But what will these links prove to you?

You'll simply say its "extraneous" and go on your merry liberal hippy way. Quick question for you, are you an english honors student just like the bulk of our "analysts" on Zee TV too??
 
l33t_5n1p3r_max said:
If by proof you mean links then I can get you at least 10 different links claiming Chinese support to them lol..

CHINA: SIGNS OF ULTRA-LEFTIST SUPPORT TO MAOISTS OF INDIA AND NEPAL.
China supplying arms to Maoists: India

But what will these links prove to you?
They don't indicate the degree of support :)

Put in another way would you consider the support from the Chinese for naxalism to be as significant as say US support of the Mujahedin in the 80's, No. Therefore Chinese support in this context is present but insignificant in the overall picture.

And there is no need because the naxals have plenty of domestic sources for funds already. Arms can be bought or just grabbed from the police.

“Everybody knows in Chhattisgarh that Maoists annually extort millions of rupees as donations to the Maoist movement and major business players always donate generously to run their businesses. But now youths who are in no way linked to Maoists have also been earning big sums.” – Senior IPS Officer.

Orissa : Fighting Extortion ?
Jharkhand : The Naxalite Tax
Chattisgarh : Open Source Extortion

So a conflict economy is already in place

The war in Chhattisgargh and Jharkhand was not caused by the presence of a large amounts of natural resources. The two state’s developmental, social and political failures created a space for the promulgation of a revolutionary and violent ideology. However, once the guerrillas did establish themselves, the presence of raw materials enabled the emergence of numerous, illicit networks through which the Maoists are able to gain money, power and arms.

Both the government forces and the Naxalites collaborate with businessman, politicians and, in some cases, each other.The war has created a new political economy in which the winners are everyone except for the ordinary people who live there.

Source

Naxals also have a lucrative drugs operation for extra funds.

Illicit Opium Nexus
Cannabis in Orissa
Opium Cultivation in Bihar
 
a business friend of mine in Raipur says naxals are mostly having chinese artillery and is supported by chinese somehow or the other.
basically they dont want economy to grow up or something
 
coolraghav said:
a business friend of mine in Raipur says naxals are mostly having chinese artillery and is supported by chinese somehow or the other.
basically they dont want economy to grow up or something

I think he meant they don't want the conflict to end as there is a strong interest to keep the illicit economy there going. Lack of govt presence means less regulations for mining and cheaper to pollute which means overall higher profits from mining. It makes it easier for drugs to be produced and sold as there is less govt. presence or enforcement.

And it cuts down on any sort of industrial production and lowers consumer demand so the ppl are kept poor and provide for easy recruits as alternative means of employment is less and also the pay is lower. The black economy iow dwarfs the white in these areas so that means even lower taxes to the govt to do anything and the key ppl that keep it that way are the naxals.

And the reason for this is govt in those areas can be bought of very easily, therefore the dominant businesses in those areas benefit from the current situation. Particularly in the case of Jharkhand where the present CM came to power with the help of the naxals. It's ironic that Jharkhand holds 40% of the countries minerals, its very rich in this sense yet its ppl are dirt poor :(

Not only do you have to fight a parallel government but there is also a parallel economy in place with business interests that want to keep it that way.
 
coolraghav said:
a business friend of mine in Raipur says naxals are mostly having chinese artillery and is supported by chinese somehow or the other.
basically they dont want economy to grow up or something

that explains a lot of things - if the naxals were to come to power the nation would descend to the state that was prevalent 30-40 years back.
 
What the Maoists want[ed]:
Equal rights for the peasant and tribal belts of India. As per them this group should not be exploited and be given equal opportunity when land acquisition is granted to MNC and/or industrial bodies. They want a revolution where the government is overthrown and a new rule comes to place. Of course to do this, the gun barrel would be utilized.

What they are are now:

Have set up a parallel government, which is literally at war with the current ruling democratic government. Have support of the people they want upliftment for -- via promises and brute force. If someone is not with them, they are literally against them. Are operating clandestine business which involve extortion, weapons trafficking, electoral campaign manpower, selling stolen goods, buying stolen goods. They take no shame in massacring civilians or government security personnel. They have literally created a 'Badland' in the Red Corridor. I guess they are living in the ideology once they succeed, we all will say "the end justifies the means". No. We will not say that. They have created a mini - civil war within India. And hope am not incorrect, but our government is also flabbergasted in tackling these group. Even human right groups support them. So who is wrong..? Many say the government has been unfair, but have Maoists been fair. There initial mission was noble, but the path/methods are hardly. Frankly, now, I hardly care a damn, what their thinking says, to much havoc has been generated on their scoreboard. They clearly resemble a extremely large bunch of renegades riding rough-shod over man, animal, and weed.

The idea of CIMPCOR (Civilian Military Partnership for Conflict Resolution) as pointed out above makes sense. Clear definition is needed, to the granular level, and implementation and follow up should be stringent with zero deviations.
 
asingh said:
And hope am not incorrect, but our government is also flabbergasted in tackling these group. Even human right groups support them. So who is wrong..? Many say the government has been unfair, but have Maoists been fair.
That depends on who you think owns the land :)

Any land in the country that's not privately owned, belongs to whom ? the govt ?

The right to property was taken away in '78 so there is no obligation for the govt to offer any compensation if land is taken away by passing a law, but its open to court challenge.

If there happen to be ppl living on this land then they are illegal per forest acts and are evicted whenever the govt thinks its worth it. Typically where the land has value and can be exploited or for infrastructure projects like dams & roads.

There have been many MoU's signed recently, that can't be operationalised unless the ppl living in those areas are 'shifted' somehow.

Naturally this causes some resentment and you have grps that spring up and tell them to fight back. It started with demanding increases in the price of raw materials like beedie leaves and bamboo. And then moved onto taking on the forest dept. With these little victories came the belief that they could take on the state in its entirety.

So the govt retaliates and a vicious cycle starts with stakes being raised by both parties after each encounter. Each win by the govt is portrayed as the 'govt grabbing the land' and turns into a propaganda win of sorts for the maoists. Therefore the govt is to be resisted and brought down at all costs.

That's it in a nutshell.

asingh said:
Clear definition is needed, to the granular level, and implementation and follow up should be stringent with zero deviations.
There was a planning commision report on this subject a cpl of years back

Development Challenges in Extremist-Affected Areas

broadway said:
The maoists have been raiding and launching attacks since the past few months in an effort to provoke the centre to respond. Putting more troops in the forests means more casualties.
It would appear you were indeed right on this one and I got it wrong. The basis comes from this article by Dr Ashok Mitra, former finance minister of West Bengal.

The Phantom enemy

Given he is an old Communist who had a ringside seat during the Naxalite uprising of the ’60s and ’70s in West Bengal. His views cannot be summarily dismissed.

If this is indeed the case we can expect to see more attacks of a similar nature.

The key rests in how we react to them ;)
 
Well the Maoists have now warned that there will be more Dantedawa's if the anti-Naxalite missions continue. Also the security forces have be warned, that they should not participate in these activities. Classic case of tail wagging the dog.

Just read the Phantom article. Nerve racking. What you think, is the situation beyond salvage...?
 
No Time for War
First, a disclaimer: I have a deep, emotional connection with the Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF), which lost 76 troopers in the forests of Dantewada on Tuesday.

My father retired from the CRPF. I’ve lived in their rough camps. I made friends with soldiers from every corner of India, from Kashmiris to Malayalees to Manipuris. I pored over self-loading rifles and 9mm carbines. I felt their silent pain when a soldier fell in some corner of India, the body shipped home to, usually, an uncomprehending family in rural or small-town India.

This is the great irony of the growing Maoist attacks on security forces. The men they kill — and get killed by — are not unlike themselves, living and dying in that ill-visited twilight zone between Third World Destitute India and First World Emerging India. Second World India is a violent place, inhabited by people with guns but without real power; locked in feuds over resources, influence and power.

These feuds simmer across India, largely ignored as a few commas in eternal India, boiling over into our lives only when the attacks are so brazen as to make it to breaking-new tickers; when the attacks are so bloody as to make us shift uneasily nervously and wonder: Can they reach us?

Well, that is their plan.

The Maoist strategy, as I wrote last month, is deadlier than jihadi terrorism. The plan is not to terrorise but capture India, starting with a takeover of the countryside and isolating the cities. The Intelligence Bureau (IB), the domestic intelligence agency, has struggled to track Maoist penetration of labour unions and colleges. The IB believes such an infiltration is underway, the precursor to the Maoist dream of ruling India.

Hours after Tuesday’s attack, a friend from Pakistan said: “The Naxals are beginning to sound like India’s version of the Taliban!â€

Should we declare war against the Maoists as Pakistan has against the Taliban? Should we call in the army, send in tanks to Lalgarh and helicopter gunships to Dantewada?

As lofty as the Maoist ambition is, as brutal as their growing attacks are, this would be a grave mistake.

First, despite what we think, the scale and intensity of Naxal attacks do not match the Taliban’s ceaseless offensive. Air force strikes, US drones and the Pakistani army have reduced the frequency and ferocity of attacks, but the Taliban’s bloody strikes continue. I do not have the precise numbers, but the Taliban claim more lives in a month than the Maoists do in a year.

Second, however abhorrent I find Arundhati Roy’s description of the Maoists as “Gandhians with gunsâ€, and however deep my anger at them, the fact is their rebellion emerged because of the horrific inequities and injustices that prevail in second- and third-world India. In Dantewada — the site of Tuesday’s massacre, in the heart of the so-called Maoist “liberated zone†— no more than 30 per cent of the people are literate, less than half the national rate. India’s tribals are dispossessed and discriminated against, and unless their lot improves, the security forces will be occupying armies, the Maoists, liberators. India could indeed use a scorched-earth policy and do what the Sri Lankans did to the Tamil Tigers — if we want to conquer our poorest people.

Third, the Maoist insurgency is based not religion but on an ideology of violent revolution first propounded by, obviously, Mao Tse Tung, as a revolutionary peasant struggle against the State and exploiting classes. In a religious, rapidly urbanising nation, a Maoist class struggle, however violent, will always struggle to find sympathisers in cities. The Taliban can strike metropolitan areas because they have support there.

Maoist areas of influence now spread across nine Indian states and, theoretically, a third of the nation’s area. Yet, it is an insurgency that grows because of our ineptness at spreading economic development and not making the urgent course corrections that the surge against the Maoists needs.

It is easy now to talk of war, but the Maoists have already made that declaration. We didn’t notice, and so never prepared. It is important now to nuance armed responses, review our failing battle plans, training and processes — and bring into our national discussion the injustices being inflicted on the tribal areas.

That is the war India needs.

Consider the CRPF. With 208 battalions (that’s more than 15,000 men and women), the CRPF is one of the world’s largest paramilitary forces. As the name suggests, it’s supposed to be a federal reserve, to be called up when needed.

A third of the CRPF’s battalions are supposed to be in stand-down mode, training and recuperating. With India in a state of continuous ferment, there is no reserve left. The unofficial acronym for the force is ‘Chalte Raho Pyaare’. Keep moving my friend, a reference to the unceasing movement of its battalions from one trouble spot to another.

Most Indian police and security forces are overstretched.

These forces need reform, modern counter-insurgency tactics and equipment. It is inconceivable that 1,000 or more Maoists could take an Indian security unit completely by surprise. They need not helicopter gunships but drones. It’s obvious that intelligence agencies have little or no penetration of battlefield Naxal formations. How difficult is to have drones sweep areas before and during troop movements? As for tactics, the CRPF units violated a cardinal rule of such operations: never return the same way you went.

As Home Minister P. Chidambaram said, something has gone “seriously wrongâ€. Let’s find out what that is before talking of war.
What the hell are they going to do? Carpet bomb the entire area with UAV's? The army will get my blessings if they decide to go after the maoist leadership with drones but i assume they all live in cities glued to the internet studying the art of guerrilla warfare and battlefield strategies. Who's more familiarized with the terrain? Who has the will of the people? Who is the skillful one who's dragging his enemy to the battlefield? Who has the edge over his network of spies? Who is subtle? Who is mysterious and hard to understand? Who is surprising who?

All these shortcomings and still the defensive party wants to go on the offensive?
 
Good, you are coming around to Gill's pov. He said the local cops ought to be leading these operations instead of from Delhi. But the local cops are too terrified to do the job.

Can outsiders do as good a job ? No

But to get the local police ready will take time, maybe a few years. Elections are four years away. What to do :)

broadway said:
Carpet bomb the entire area with UAV's? The army will get my blessings if they decide to go after the maoist leadership with drones
UAVs to be used in anti-naxal operations but they were still under trial last Nov.

This article quotes the head of the anti-naxal op who explains how it will be and what it is not.

It’s not going to be like what most people have understood it to be. The government is clear that we are here to facilitate, assist and secure the process of development that the government will hasten in these areas than go bang-bang hitting the Naxal targets. It can take any number of years. All I would say is, it would be a very calculated security exercise with human face,”

“We have to win the people’s hearts in these areas first. We have to trigger a process of rethink among them that we are here not to harass but to help them. And that’s a daunting task, for which our men will need to reorient themselves,” Raman said, adding, “I am aware there are far too many variables here than constants.” According to Raman, because this operation is no war there is no question of any war excesses. “We will exercise maximum restraint,” he says.

“We are aware that here we are up against brains, not brawn. But one of our main strategies would be not to fall in the traps that cause big dents in security.”
 
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