PC Peripherals Why are we obsessed with high power PSU's ?

[Lord Nemesis]

1. Almost all PSU's that cost less than 1000 bucks are nothing more than 230/250W PSU's regardless of whether the label says 300W, 400W, 450W or even 500W. The ratings are mis-leading, bloated. So if you think you think 250W load on a 400W/500W Cheapo PSU is safe, then think again. The PSU may work, but its still working at the edge of its limits and thats not safe thing. System reboots, Instabilities will be common under such scenarios.

2. Cheapo PSU's cannot tackle power fluctuations gracefully and they do not give clean power either. I have seen 12V rails on cheapo PSU fluctuate anywhere from 11.1V~14V. An electrical/electromechanical component may not mind the fluctuations too much, but electronic components are very sensitive to fluctuations. The component may not blow immediately, but even in the best case, the life of the components would be decreased.

3. Most PSU have the best efficiency and safe operating conditions at somewhere close to 50% load. So if you have a 250W load, I would say go for a reliable 400~500W PSU like the Corsair VX450 whose ratings have been tested and verified by multiple third party professional review sites using professional equipment. A typical cheapo PSU may have a 600W rating on the label when it can handle only 250W, how can you ensure that it can handle that load without going beyond their limits.

In the end buying a reliable PSU is a matter of personal choice. Lets say you spend 25~30k on the components of your budget rig and use a 500~1000 bucks cheapo PSU. You do not have any kind of handle on the reliability of the PSU, It may be possible that it runs fine for a long time, but on the other hand, it may reduce the durability of your components, it may cause system instabilities, it may even explode one fine day and take those 30k worth components with it, it may explode near you or your family members and case bodily harm, It may cause an electric hazard and lead to loss of life, property. It may run fine or it may because all that. A 4k investment on a good tried and tested PSU reduces the chance of any of that happening drastically and ensures peace of mind. It all depends on whether that 4k is worth saving at the risk of any of the things I have mentioned happening. A cheapo PSU may not cause problems, but there is still a good chance of them happening.

I myself spent 13k on my current PSU and 6k on my previous one and I do not regret it one bit. I faced various problems in the past with cheapo PSU (which I could not avoid buying because of non-availability of good ones) and I am fed up with using them. After I switched to good PSU, even the reliability and life of the components I buy seems to have improved.

 

[rahul..]

is there any way with which we can knw hw much power psu is providing....?

 

[Firefox4]

Your post is somewhat assuring as I was think that my own rig would find it difficult to boot with just 500W. I have got a Q6600, 4GB.

Btw, how do you know what power your PSU is using?

 

[Vulc4n]

@OP - I agree that oftentimes suggestions for getting the VX450 seem unwarranted given the person's rig/budget. At such times, even I wish that people would come up with something more constructive than "increase your budget by XXX and get VX450 because _____ ". However the sad truth remains that there are very few cheap (and low powered) PSUs out there which are good quality as well. Maybe the CX400 and Gigabyte 460 are equally good but they are relatively new introductions and have yet to be proven/widely accepted. Maybe if 2-3 years down the line they havent blown up PCs and are as cheap, people will be comfortable recommending them.

 

[Lord Nemesis]

@OP - I agree that oftentimes suggestions for getting the VX450 seem unwarranted given the person's rig/budget. At such times, even I wish that people would come up with something more constructive than "increase your budget by XXX and get VX450 because _____ ". However the sad truth remains that there are very few cheap (and low powered) PSUs out there which are good quality as well. Maybe the CX400 and Gigabyte 460 are equally good but they are relatively new introductions and have yet to be proven/widely accepted. Maybe if 2-3 years down the line they havent blown up PCs and are as cheap, people will be comfortable recommending them.

Well people should be able to spend at least 2~4k on a decent PSU when they are spending 25~30k on the rest of the components considering that PSU is the base for the rest of your system. If the budget is fixed, then make compromises on the core components so that you can afford a PSU that can reliably run the system. I say decide the PSU first based on what what kind of requrements you have for the rig and then you can tweak the remaining budget for the rest of the components. You can always add that extra ram or hdd later. Go one step lower CPU if required. Cut down on some accessories.

 

[cranky]

@TS:

We are 25 posts into this thread, and I still don't see a single alternative PSU being suggested, I have a strong feeling this topic is all bluster and flamebait aimed at those who suggest quality products. I can only hear noise, have not seen a single suggestion of what one can use. If someone can stop addressing points made in a post and say "x" power supply is a good alternative, I'll listen. Until then this is just a waste of time.

Show me what you got, don't be shy. Once you point to a specific PSU, we'll talk about that. I only see theoretical words and suppositions, which frankly, I don't care at all for.

Once you see 4 people suffering because they thought their '600 watt' CM Extreme PSU was capable of 600 Watts, you know the truth. Of course it will give 600 watts. Right before it goes up in smoke. How do you think a '400 watt' PSU from the same series is going to work out? Will it be capable of 400? 200? Do you know for a fact how the maker rated it? You can walk down Lamington Road and see '400 watt' power supplies being sold for 400 Rupees. Are those good enough? Is a CM "Extreme 390" good enough?

And those idiotic things that float around bearing brand names like iBall and Zebronics. Have you ever opened up a power supply? Have you analysed its construction, its components, its build? I have, and I can tell you, you can't touch a Seasonic or a PCP&C. I can tell you this much, when you buy a Corsair, an Antec or a Seasonic, you get a limo of a power supply. Sure, you could spend half that and buy a bicycle instead, but that is a losing deal. And when the bicycle is in an accident, it could be a lot more injurious to you.

You are welcome to buy whatever you want, and to tell people whatever you want. That is what a forum is for. But calling out senior members who take a little effort to push people to invest in quality is frankly, unwarranted. Your thread title is totally misleading and flamebaiting, and your posts do not contain a shred of information apart from conjecture. It is commendable that you have made some measurements, but the way you are communicating is telling people "Don't buy xyz power supplies as you don't need to spend that much". Change that to say "Buy xyz power supplies, they are a good alternative to abc power supplies", and then you've got a rational discussion going.

As to your post, there is no need to buy a PSU with 80+ certification. It is not a question of just saving on electricity. A more efficient PSU will generate less heat, and thus last longer. The added efficiency comes from higher quality components and circuitry, so overall it's a quality PSU, better than generic boxes with a transformer and a fan and a few components.

Now I'm waiting for a few suggestions on a nice ~400 watt PSU that will cost less than the VX/CX series or the EA series, and deliver comparable performance. Or cost a lot less, and deliver slightly less performance.

 

[zhopudey]

Now I'm waiting for a few suggestions on a nice ~400 watt PSU that will cost less than the VX/CX series or the EA series, and deliver comparable performance. Or cost a lot less, and deliver slightly less performance.

So am I, and I guess a lot of other people here The gigabyte seems to be pretty good.

 

[BIKeINSTEIN]

Wow- this thread has the wisest people posting in it, whether you take it staright or with a pinch of cyanide.

About the thread title, using 'we' is inappropriate as the OP is clearly not a part of that 'we'.

About me, it's not the wattage but it's the quality.

Vinaynaga- how old are you?

Do you own a car or some other product worthy of a premium tag and something you are usually proud of owning?

Why is the 80+ certification needed at all ? A moderate PSU wastes say 15% power, that translates to losing Rs 3-5 per fifty hours of usage. That is not more than Rs 25 per month if you run the computer for ten hours a day. It is a insignificant saving for a big upfront difference for a bronze certified PSU.

About 80+, here is why i will recommend it to all and mind you it is not about saving.

It is all about preventing wastage.

Do you pay society maintenance, water tax etc?

Water rates are really low, so many don't bother about leaking taps.

Some even leave fans/lights running when no one is at home, etc.

All that is called as wastage. :cool2:

The moment rates are hiked, everyone is making sure lights are switched off, etc etc.

The whole new generations of humans have become very indifferent and insensitive to wastage imho.

Earlier fuel was cheap but people would shut engines when standing, not to save money but to avoid wastage.

Now one can see almost everyone keep their engines running even for long halts.

80+ psus sell at a premium now and those who afford it and want one for whatever reason buy it.

There will be a day when 80+ will be the bare minimum and much cheaper and everyone will be using this as a natural effect.

That is how technology trickles through to the masses- maybe unfortunately.

There was a time when few afforded a PC and now almost all of those same people can afford a pretty hi-end rig.

Same with cars, watches, PCs, microwave ovens, etc etc

Basic rule of existence for man or machine is to strive for maximum efficiency.

That's why knowledgeable and reputed seniors at "good" technical forums always recommend the best.

If not creating awareness and promoting better options, in general, all would be rotting in a gutter.

As a matter of fact, homo sapiens would be non-existent if not striving for the better.

By promoting the best, they ensure the whole community and race rises up to a better existence/quality of life.

Ain't that the reason people look forward to good technical forums to make themselves aware of what's the best, be it cpu/mobo/RAM/.../PSU, they can buy for their budget?

Now ain't that trying to maximise the efficiency of the money you spend?

I hope you read this thoroughly and try to understand.

(as a side note- it also depends on the individual about how much importance they attach to what.

Some wear cheapo clothes but like to decorate their homes a lot.

Some have simple homes but good clothes/cars.

Some have not much of those yet but simply have good taste.

And i repeat again, it's not about saving and i have not even uttered a single word on want/need of so-so wattage yet na- that will be another 1500 words at least. :lol

To end this-

Based on these results, all we need is a 400W PSU that can handles spikes and fluctuations well. for cheap

What am I missing here ?

That is what you were (and honestly all of us are too) missing my friend.

 

[adder]

well i gues PSU manufactures power ratings are like those PMPO ratings or MAX power that u see in a car amp vs the actual continous power.

the pc with a 4850 may not consume much more then a 250watts.my pc with a p4 ,2 ddr1 ram sticks, 2 hdd and a 6600gt consume at the max 166watts and its running fine with a 400watts zebronics ,earlier it used to run with a 300watts frontech,which died while i was gaming luckily it didn't take anything else with it,so i guess it wasn't rated at 300watts despite the load being only at about 166watts.
but we must note that arriving at the watts figure is nothing but volt x ampere=watts,so while a el cheapo psu may give close to the claimed watts it may not exactly give the desired watts in the 12v line or can probably give it for a short duration.

 

[clown_abhi]

I invested in the Corsair based on the advices from senior members and i dnt regret even a little.

It has been providing continuous stable power to whatever i put in my comp, without ever complaining...

I used 8600GT, then 9600GT and now the power hungry 4850 without ever having to worry about the PSU being able to hold up or not. Even if i now upgrade to a higher wattage card or a quad, it will handle it.

Add to this, there is this 5 year warranty which assures me that even if anything goes wrong, i'll get a replacement.

Earlier with my Zebby PSU,

Monthly electric bill used to be 500 bucks but now its 350 bucks.

So on an average i save 150 bucks a month for 24x7 PC usage.

Dat adds up to 150x12 = 1800 bucks savings per year of 24x7 usage.

So, i invested 3200 for my Corsair and then i'll save that in less than 2 years. Then i have 3 more years of free good PSU. hyeah:

And with a good PSU, u'll never find a ripple or noise, just clean power which is what ur PC components would love.

Imagine ur life with the tubelights flickering!!! :rofl::rofl::rofl:

I think u got now what ur life would be wthout a good PSU.

Always remember a PSU is the only component which drives everything in ur comp, so why not keep it safe...

And finally, earlier there were no other better option than this. Though now, there are lot of options from the CX400 to the Glaciatech. But all of them will cost fairly enuf for u to be tempted towards the Corsair...So, at the end its the buyers decision to decide for his PC, we are here just to advise, nothing more nothing less.

 

[matoind]

The wattage of the SMPS is not concentrated on a single wire but generally more than one (Multiple rails of 5V and 12V). They add up the wattage of various rails to get a sum total of 500 or 600W. While assembling a computer, one may not be able to balance the load properly. Eg : Though there are 2 lines of 18A 12V, the load may be put to just one! Similarly with 5V lines. So that safety margin has to be taken. Many a times you may connect 2 HDD on a set of single 4 wires with two connectors just because the other set is connected at a distance to a CD Rom.

So this wasted wattage has to be taken care of.

 

[m0h1t]

okay, everyone seems to be distributing gyan here, someone clear my doubt then..

The CM extreme power 600 is rated at 70% efficiency, I thought that means if DC Output is 400 then it will suck ~571w from mains
similarly w/ VX450 efficiency is 83% for 90% load, hence it will suck ~481w from mains when output is 400w.. so far so good..

Now comes the issue of maximum wattage output, this has nothing to do w/ efficiency right?
VX450 can actually deliver 450w of DC ouput irrespective of power sucked from mains due to its high quality and CM 600w cant deliver even 550w DC output cuz of shitty components.. right?

 

[Gannu]

Now I'm waiting for a few suggestions on a nice ~400 watt PSU that will cost less than the VX/CX series or the EA series, and deliver comparable performance. Or cost a lot less, and deliver slightly less performance.

Gigabyte Superb 460. It's a rebadged FSP 400W OEM. Besides, I'm getting a Zebronics Pro Power 350w for my Atom setup. Unlike the previous Platinum and the others which were totally rubbish, this one (the OEM's unknown - some say it's an HEC OEM and neither could I find the UL number of the power supply) is a notch better and is a safe bet as an entry level decent PSU.

Many a times you may connect 2 HDD on a set of single 4 wires with two connectors just because the other set is connected at a distance to a CD Rom.

So this wasted wattage has to be taken care of.

Eh? :S

 

[Rockfella]

"More is better" is a stupid sentiment shared by a lot of people in all walks of life. Same goes with the PSUs. The companies manufacturing them are aware that they PCs dont really need 1000W 1200W PSUs but if they dont make these heavyweights they might be looked down by a lot of enthusiasts. Also the fact is that very high end graphic cards actually need more than 33A on the 12V rail hence for mots rigs VX450W is more than enough! Just my say. I am not obsessed with high power PSUs. U need to have good enough powerful components to extract the juice out of high end psus to make it run @ a good load % and get maximum efficiency out of it rofl! :cool2:

I have been thinking a low about saving power recently and built a device similar to "Kill a watt" to measure how much power is being drawn by each item in the house. :clap:

When I used the same on the computer, I got some interesting results. I have a Quad core Intel with a Radeon HD4850 card, 4gb mem, two hard disks, two DVD Writers and a Soundblaster PCI card in the system. On idle, the system draws a total of 125W. On playing Crysis with all settings at high, I get a peak usage of 220W. Even with a full CPU load, I never cross 280W. Granted I have a bronze certified Antec PSU that is very efficient, but even a inefficient PSU will draw another 15% more.

When I tried the same test on another older AthlonXP 1700+ CPU + motherboard + 1 DVD Drive + 1 Hard disk system, I got a usage of 110W with a very old PSU. When I tried this same system with a good PSU, I saved another 10W. And finally when I tried the same system with my Antec Bronze certified PSU, I saved 20W compared to the first PSU.

So the difference between a Bronze certified PSU and ordinary PSU found in every shop in India is a max of 20W. Which means that if I run the machine with a bad PSU for 50 hours, I end up saving 1 unit of power (Rs 5.xx at the peak slabs) :huh:

In other words, with a fairly high end systems, Im drawing less than 300W at any point in time with any PSU. A bronze certified PSU gives me a saving of Rs 5 every 50 hours.

Based on these results, all we need is a 400W PSU that can handles spikes and fluctuations well. Why then the fascination for expensive 480W plus and 600W Bronze certified PSU's that are recommended in every thread in every forum ?

What am I missing here ?

 

[Emil]

okay, everyone seems to be distributing gyan here, someone clear my doubt then..

The CM extreme power 600 is rated at 70% efficiency, I thought that means if DC Output is 400 then it will suck ~571w from mains
similarly w/ VX450 efficiency is 83% for 90% load, hence it will suck ~481w from mains when output is 400w.. so far so good..

Now comes the issue of maximum wattage output, this has nothing to do w/ efficiency right?
VX450 can actually deliver 450w of DC ouput irrespective of power sucked from mains due to its high quality and CM 600w cant deliver even 550w DC output cuz of shitty components.. right?

You are absolutely right.

 

[cranky]

So this wasted wattage has to be taken care of.

Do some homework before you post from a point of view of knowledge, please. I may be a bit acrebic, but if you post misinformation you can expect to be cut down to size.

Wattage is never 'present'. It is requested by a device, and the power supply has to (surprise, surprise!) supply it. The request can be within parameters, or it may not. What you're talking about is load distribution, which is required due to the artificial and needless limit placed by ATX v2.3 specs, of 20 amps per output line.

@Gannu:

The Superb 460 is a 400 watt power supply. It delivers only 29 amperes on its 12V rails (but curiously, 30 amperes on the 3.3 and 5V rails), 5 amps less than the Antec EA380, so it's not really '460', but all right, if it's the FSP OEM 400 watt it should work out fine. I can't seem to remember who did the Powersafe 400, was that also not FSP? And did that not sell for ~1.5K?

I still wouldn't trust the Zebby. So we have one contender, since some members here seem to be using it I guess there's something in it.

Any others?

 

[Emil]

A few points to on the subject.

1. vinayaga's feeling about efficiency to reduce power bills is totally misplaced. That is the least of all reasons one should decide to go for high efficiency. As I pointed out earlier and so did cranky, high efficiency goes hand in hand with well designed, good quality. And better reliability is due to quality as well as due to lower dissipation.

2. The idea of choosing a PSU rated double of your actual need just because it offers best efficiency at 50% load is impractical if it were applied to any other branch of engineering. It would result in huge cost of infrastructure.

3. The way those bundled PSUs are rated is what makes them doubly difficult to use. Firstly because they are generally of suspect build quality and secondly because there is a trick to the rating. A so-called 400W PSU is so rated because it is the sum of the power ratings of each output. The reality is that they cannot give that output when all outputs are loaded to their fullest extent. Moreover, I have never got the opportunity to see what they specify for things like load regulation and cross regulation which must go together with the load ampere rating.

 

[Emil]

Any others?

How about the Seasonic 380 watter @ Rs 3000/-? That is a full Rs 1000/- cheaper than the VX450

 

[Gannu]

I can't seem to remember who did the Powersafe 400, was that also not FSP? And did that not sell for ~1.5K?

Yeah OOS everywhere. That was the FSP Bluestorm AX500 which was rebadged as the Powersafe/VIP 500W Silver. Retailed for as low as 1.6k at a time!

 

[cranky]

Corsair = Seasonic, so yes, that's a good one too.

So we have the Gigabyte @2500 and the Seasonic @3000. Is there something in the 1.5K range apart from the Zebby 350?