Anna Hazare's fast against corruption

[agantuk]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

^ I don't think private institutions are covered under this. He will have to fast again to bring those under the ambit. India can then go back to becoming a state run closed economy with no private sector participation. Reservation and RTE has already forced institutions to increase fees and reduce the quality of education.

 

[avi]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

Firstly I want a rep button in GT so that can rep Crazy_Eddy for this post

Why everyone is supporting ? Because they all are pissed by corruption. They never tried to fight against it & may be always waited someone could come up. And this happened. Their anger is just being used.

Though 2G, CWG scams were out of our hands, but paying bribe for driving license / passport were always our mistakes. In my city, you need to pay 1000 INR for driving license. I never paid for it & they failed me 3 times in test. They behaved with me as if I am some miser & even friends, as I was not willing to shell out 'extra' money. But finally I got my DL after 5 trials. But friend who was with me, paid money & got his license in first test. You know what ? His current FB picture is of hazare & shits on his wall that he is against corruption blah blah. Everyone has time to go to Ramila Maidan, wave flags, but no one is ready to give tests for 5-6 times & instead they pay bribe.

I agree +100000 with Crazy_Eddy, unless it boils down to one's consciousness, lokpal or fckpal can never cure corruption IMHO.

 

[blr_p]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

When you question someone else's intention, let me question yours.
Why are you specifically against this man? Why are you posting this. What is your connection to all this. This does not affect you directly then why are you taking up a position against him or any anti-corruption campaign. Mainly why are you against one man when you dont have any relation with him directly.

Lets correct this shall we. Anything that happens in govt, to do with govt, that involves passing legislation as sweeping as this affects every citizen. Did we get to vote in this no, a mob decided it was in eveyones interest and then pressurised the govt. So there is no requirement whatsoever for intent or qualification or anything like this to question.

It requires no qualification to question, the only requirement is that it be a coherent question

What you say is actually a convenient con to dodge questions by offering nothing in return. The spurious claim that one has to supposedly be qualifed or have done something to even question. This is basically what you tell kids to get them to stop bugging you.

In a free, pluralist society, criticism is allowed, encouraged and i would go so far as to say mandatory. A society where questions are welcome is any day better than one where they are not.

Its easy to question someone, why? because you dont have to justify yourself when you question someone's intentions or agenda.

When it has affects on all citizens then its the right question to ask. If it does not then you could say it was poking your nose into somenodys business.

As far as this movement is concerned, it was wayyy larger than 0.000001%. Why do you think government caved in? Why do you think this got uniform support from almost all social sectors? Why did they not want this to go on? Why did they budge in the end? Why didnt they let him break his fast himself and take the risk of him falling seriously ill or die? Why did they wait so long if they knew they had to bend in the end? They have let many others die fasting before, so why not him?

Caved in to make it go away. How well they manage it remains to be seen.

See its easy to ask questions. Very easy.
The man does not matter, the 1 thing that matters is that it has been proved once again that when something/someone is fundamentally correct its very difficult to kill or ignore.

Here we go with the absoloutes, once you cling to the moral high ground everybody that disagrees must be wrong isn't it.

And coming to the man, he has been doing this for the betterment of of society for long time. He has never gained anything personally. Its our mentality to seek what he gained personally from all this. Mind soo used to seeing everyone doing something for only personal gain sometimes cannot grasp the concept of a true social cause.
What did he gain from RTI? Nothing personally. Or do you think even RTI shouldnt have happened and we were better off?

err, aruna roy was the personality behing RTI. AH might have had something to do with getting it implemented in Maha. But other places got it much earlier, TN was first in 1997 you got it in 2001. AH's actual role was in helping a movement gain support in Maha, thats all.

The tactics used to get RTI are in stark contrast to JLP. That was fight over many years. Not televised like this one.

Take it easy. Its not like he is running after you with gun to your head
Government themselves are responsible for this. Its their actions that created the environment for this movement or spectacle (as its in your mind from you posts )

And here i am reminded once again of Deng Xia Ping's quote

The cost of progress is corruption

One might guess that this is why the Chinese move slowly on this subject. Why do we have 8% growth and China even more.

Theres a lot of dirty money in it. All that black money which is supposedly abroad in swiss bank accounts ? heh no, its in the system, getting much better return pushing things up here, including GDP. Govt said we don't care where your money comes from or how you got it, just invest it here.

Money goes where it gets the best return. Do we want to mess with the money go round ?

 

[Shripad]

Lets correct this shall we. Anything that happens in govt, to do with govt, that involves passing legislation as sweeping as this affects every citizen. Did we get to vote in this no, a mob decided it was in eveyones interest and then pressurised the govt. So there is no requirement whatsoever for intent or qualification or anything like this to question.

It requires no qualification to question, the only requirement is that it be a coherent question

What you say is actually a convenient con to dodge questions by offering nothing in return. The spurious claim that one has to supposedly be qualifed or have done something to even question. This is basically what you tell kids to get them to stop bugging you.

In a free, pluralist society, criticism is allowed, encouraged and i would go so far as to say mandatory. A society where questions are welcome is any day better than one where they are not.

When it has affects on all citizens then its the right question to ask. If it does not then you could say it was poking your nose into somenodys business.

Caved in to make it go away. How well they manage it remains to be seen.
Here we go with the absoloutes, once you cling to the moral high ground everybody that disagrees must be wrong isn't it.

err, aruna roy was the personality behing RTI. AH might have had something to do with getting it implemented in Maha. But other places got it much earlier, TN was first in 1997 you got it in 2001. AH's actual role was in helping a movement gain support in Maha, thats all.

The tactics used to get RTI are in stark contrast to JLP. That was fight over many years. Not televised like this one.

And here i am reminded once again of Deng Xia Ping's quote

The cost of progress is corruption

One might guess that this is why the Chinese move slowly on this subject. Why do we have 8% growth and China even more.

Theres a lot of dirty money in it. All that black money which is supposedly abroad in swiss bank accounts ? heh no, its in the system, getting much better return pushing things up here, including GDP. Govt said we don't care where your money comes from or how you got it, just invest it here.

Money goes where it gets the best return. Do we want to mess with the money go round ?

You are just arguing for the sake of it.

When people ask questions against this moment, its fine because its coherent question, but you don't want anyone questioning the government for the same reason.

These people too asked question and protested because said legislation is going to effect all citizens.

And now that elected government has agreed to these justified demands why don't you respect that now. Afterall its elected government isnt it? You are hell bent on respecting the government, then why not now when they have come to their senses? Its only becaise you don't think that way is the reason. Nothing else.. That is also you clinging to you views.

And my reply to eddy was not to ask those questions, but to make a point that its just easy to question motives of other party. But you again missed the whole point of that post and as usual started quoting line by line.

And corruption is cost of progress is simply put B.S.

Sent from Motorola Photon 4G using TapaTalk Pro.

 

[j_jindal1]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

All of us indians have been a victim of corruption in one or another way.. Be it a muslim, hindu or other religions. And we all want to get rid of it as well (except those who are part of it.. ) What I know is Anna, a social activist is trying to bring a Law with transparency, there's a hope that this law will bring us all a better india.. change starts with a movement and I believe movement has started..

 

[blr_p]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

You are just arguing for the sake of it.

No, its because i'm still struggling to get a handle on this and do not trust the biased media reports. if you watch what they say it would seem EVEryBODY is for this. But in reality its a vocal minority with enough power to cause an upset in the next elections. thats all it is.

I guess it will take more time. I like status quo, change is always risky, and its hard to tell at the outset whether its for the good or not. I could say the indicators of this look equally good as they do bad. That is why the doubt.

You say what good is living in a country where ppl are afraid of govt it should rightfully be the other way around and i agree with that.

When people ask questions against this moment, its fine because its coherent question, but you don't want anyone questioning the government for the same reason.

These people too asked question and protested because said legislation is going to effect all citizens.

Sure, but what is the result when they don't get the answer they want ? its to go on an indefnite fast again. This questions whether we have suitable avenues available for the citizen to lobby govt in the first place doesn't it. I'm not sure as yet whether that is the case or not. If one assumes there are other avenues then this movement looks like its pushing against them otherwise its liberating.

We have this lofty goal of tackling corruption, but there is only one way. See, i think a-team has climbed down on their intial demands. So nothing is sacrosanct even for them.

And now that elected government has agreed to these justified demands why don't you respect that now. Afterall its elected government isnt it? You are hell bent on respecting the government, then why not now when they have come to their senses? Its only becaise you don't think that way is the reason. Nothing else..

Govt has agreed on principle. So if the aim was to get that then fine. Now come the implementations, lets see how it goes.

They have more supporters than they had earlier, the demands can become more strident & unreasonable.

And corruption is cost of progress is simply put B.S.

How to maintain a growth rate of close to dbl digits without it ?

--- Updated Post - Automerged ---

At least Karans's asking the right questions..

Government hasn't made any mistakes: Salman Khurshid | Devils Advocate | Aug 28 2011

Karan Thapar: Salman, let me interrupt you and put this to you. Probably 90 per cent of India today is convinced that your government seriously mishandled the Anna situation. Can you today, as an honest minister accept that serious mistakes were made?

Karan Thapar: What you've achieved in fact is a monumental mess that lasted for 13 days traumatising India. But let's leave that aside, I'll come to that in a moment's time. Let me repeat my question. Are you saying to me that your government made no mistakes handling Anna Hazare?

Karan Thapar: This pride, is this bravado that you cannot admit you made mistakes?

Salman Khurshid: No, no, it's faith, it's confidence and belief that we don't want the government to be kicked around by people who have…

Karan Thapar: But the government was. The government was not just kicked around, you became a football.

 

[sid_donnydarko]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

You are just arguing for the sake of it.

When people ask questions against this moment, its fine because its coherent question, but you don't want anyone questioning the government for the same reason.

These people too asked question and protested because said legislation is going to effect all citizens.

And now that elected government has agreed to these justified demands why don't you respect that now. Afterall its elected government isnt it? You are hell bent on respecting the government, then why not now when they have come to their senses? Its only becaise you don't think that way is the reason. Nothing else..

And corruption is cost of progress is simply put B.S.

Sent from Motorola Photon 4G using TapaTalk Pro.

A debate always stands a strong chance of losing perspective when someone gets emotionally defensive. Objectivity and benefit-of-the-doubt are the surest/safest means to let a debate roll on without threatening to derail it.

I've done my best to follow this thread and so far i have not noted a single instance where TE member blr_p has tried to be emotionally defensive or engage in a personal attack against another member's view in an attempt to disprove him. But if someone can prove me wrong, then by all means please do so. To the best of my knowledge, TE member blr_p has kept this thread clean by either repectfully questioning a member's opinion or politely/subtly rebuke another's view at worst.

The only reason why i've kept away from this thread is because i personally feel that the wrong questions have been answered. Let me best explain this with an example - Picture a situation where in a Cop pulls Mr.X over for breaking the law. The Cop then offers Mr.X two choices; either he pay the full fee of Rs.2000 and pay the court a visit or he can pay the Cop's bribe of Rs.500 and get off scott-free. Mr.X settles it with five 100 rupee notes. By offering Mr.X such choices, no doubt the Cop proves he's corrupt. But what about Mr.X? Is he exempted of corruption just because the Cop tries to take advantage of this situation? Can't he be accussed of corruption if he decides to offer the Cop his bribe?

Corruption isn't restricted to the government alone. I don't condemn Anna's movement and neither do i question his motives.

From what i've seen so far, the majority of Anna's supporters have been brainwashed to the point where they wholeheartedly believe that the government is the culprit; self-victimization is an incredibly powerful motivational tool, even more so than fear, but its hardly constructive and will only make the problem worse. The issue with such "noble" causes is that even though the leader is a human with strong and irreproachable ideals, the same cannot be said for his/her followers. To them(supporters), the movement stands for a means to an end.

 

[chiron]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

This time its our own people who revolted against something that was fundamentally wrong.

What I see as fundamentally wrong about this whole movement is the fact that there is hardly any outcry about the corporates who form the other side of the equation and have gained far more benefit from the scams than the govt themselves and who incidentally are also furthest from the reach of the law. Nah, lets just put the screws to the govt servant who is already bound by a bunch of regulations instead. Makes me wonder who actually is directing this and who told the media to portray the movement in the way it has.

 

[*Raj*]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

Only one question to all

The people who would be implementing this would be hired from our country or somewhere else. Is there any honesty detecting machines so as to choose right people ?

--- Updated Post - Automerged ---

Simply, when there are so much system already existing against corruption since long, how new parallel system with same people would be effective ? Giving nuclear power in wrong hands (if it happens not necessarily) is gonna to devastate much more to our country for sure. It requires serious thinking.

--- Updated Post - Automerged ---

When present system miserably failed to deliver despite all existing anti corruption organizations measures etc., how new system with same people can be ensured to deliver in public favour as bagdor finally unhi logo ko deni hai

 

[mib2_007]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

its fail untill people stop giving bribe. anna will be a sucess the day a dad will say i will no bribe school for my kids admission and walk out with admission of kids because he dont want to pay bribe. i know it does not look logical or practical but its a reality

exactly the point, all of these Anna supporters will always be willing to give bribes when there is a question of their children getting into private schools.

 

[kippu]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

thank god that there are sensible people coming out here and asking questions , when this thread started , that was a minority and rare phenomenon and now i see a growing anti jlp voice coming through , i only hope it is reflected in real life and not just in this forums

 

[Shripad]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

No, its because i'm still struggling to get a handle on this and do not trust the biased media reports. if you watch what they say it would seem EVEryBODY is for this. But in reality its a vocal minority with enough power to cause an upset in the next elections. thats all it is.

I guess it will take more time. I like status quo, change is always risky, and its hard to tell at the outset whether its for the good or not. I could say the indicators of this look equally good as they do bad. That is why the doubt.

You say what good is living in a country where ppl are afraid of govt it should rightfully be the other way around and i agree with that.

Sure, but what is the result when they don't get the answer they want ? its to go on an indefnite fast again. This questions whether we have suitable avenues available for the citizen to lobby govt in the first place doesn't it. I'm not sure as yet whether that is the case or not. If one assumes there are other avenues then this movement looks like its pushing against them otherwise its liberating.

We have this lofty goal of tackling corruption, but there is only one way. See, i think a-team has climbed down on their intial demands. So nothing is sacrosanct even for them.

Govt has agreed on principle. So if the aim was to get that then fine. Now come the implementations, lets see how it goes.

They have more supporters than they had earlier, the demands can become more strident & unreasonable.

How to maintain a growth rate of close to dbl digits without it ?

More than 20 pages back I made a post stating regardless the total number of differences, there are 3 key things on which the whole debate was circling around. Government has conceded on all 3 points.

Who do you think its media spectacle only. I was there passing over at Azad maidan here. You really had to see the environment here. And there were 10000s of people on road supporting this in Mumbai which was not even the primary location. I dont even live in major population area. I live in the extreme outskirts of Mumbai and still I got to see soo many people supporting this. IT was definitely not a minority. When there is majority or equal opposition to something we usually see protesters from both sides. Here there were no protests against this movement. Why? Because this was for the right reason in principle. When thats the case, you dont see any majority public opposition to it. And whatever little opposition is there is totally outnumbered.

Its a number game. If it wasnt, there was no reason for government to back down. Government which has such strong majority in centre will only bend if they see no other choice and no logical reason to continue opposing it. Opposing something that is fundamentally right by taking the support of technicality, methodology or tradition never works. Khurshid was ripped apart on a talk show when he tried to justify the arrest saying this is not the first time this has been done. He had no answer when he was told to justify the governments opposition on the principles. You are quoting today's interview. See the one on 2nd or 3rd day of the agitation.

And yes, if the demand is justified, peaceful protests like indefinite fasts are totally justified and within the constitution of our nation. Hell there was someone (I dont remember who or on which channel was that debate going on. It was on 5th or 6th day of protest where a young man doing socialism studies put forward his point of this agitation being justified under the duties of citizen defined in our constitution. I will try to dig up any link of that on youtube (it was posted on youtube) and the government representative had no answers for him.

You dont have to believe in Media, you just have to look outside and whats happening outside. Its simply statistically impossible for majority including foreign media to support or portray a picture that is fundamentally incorrect in todays age.

Have you considered that it was simply this way because it was true or that it had merit?

And again, justify the presence of corruption to maintain double digit growth. And BTW, we are not maintaining double digit growth. We never have since 1966 with exception of temporary spikes that lasted for a quarter or so.

@sid : You dont have to attack anyone directly to be argumentative.

You dont or rather shouldn't have to quote someone sentence by sentence to being your point across and deflect the attention away from the points made in that post. Thats what is done by few members here. Selective quoting without understanding the entire point of the post and deflection questions by questions is one sort of argument only. Make your argument on whole and not nitpick on 1 line at a time. When you start dissecting someone's a forum comment thats a sign that you cannot oppose what is being said completely and are just trying to have a last word in a discussion.

There is a perfect term used by one member for that few pages ago. I wont repeat that to cause another stir.

You call those who support the movement brainwashed, how are the people who oppose it any different. They say they dont condone the corruption and try to stay politically correct by saying they are not against the scope of Jan Lokpal bill, but at the same times oppose the movement or person. What do you call that?

Majority of arguments are procedural arguments. Those never hold when it comes to a social movement of the masses. That is why this has been successful so far.

The most important aspect of this is yet to be completed. We will see what actually happens in parliament over next few days. Lets see if they walk the path to which they have agreed in principle.

@chiron. see my last 2 replies. The reason government employees need to be held above others is the position in which they are.

Private sector corruption is also taking place where they have to interact with public sector. That should tell you something

 

[chiron]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

Corruption has the potential to take place in any transaction. Just because private sector transactions are are not bound by the rules of govt doesn't mean that corrupt practices don't exist. Of course govt functions in a larger scale and hence the rules become more cumbersome and contradictory over time which ends up encouraging corruption to aid in navigating through it while such procedures are better managed within companies. Enron and Satyam scandals could be seen as case of private sector corruption and I'm sure there are many such cases which never saw light coz they were hushed up by management. I've been offered bribes by subcontractors while working for a pvt company just as same I've been offered bribes while working in a PSU. In retrospect I was too dumb and idealistic and ended up turning them down

Or is your argument that a company ceo has less of a position than a police constable?

 

[fractal]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

Expecting govt servants to do their job for their paid salary and pensions is not unreasonable. I feel that more people would take a stand against giving bribes if at the end of it there is some consequence to the government servant. A citizens charter which has been talked about would be a step in the right direction.

A lot of corruption has become just a routine cost of doing business in India which corporates are fed up with.

The argument that corruption is a cost of progress is not correct. Just because some nations have a high rate of corruption and a high rate of growth does not mean that there is any correlation. The growth rate could probably have been higher if the right decisions were made without corruption.

 

[Shripad]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

Corruption has the potential to take place in any transaction. Just because private sector transactions are are not bound by the rules of govt doesn't mean that corrupt practices don't exist. Of course govt functions in a larger scale and hence the rules become more convoluted and end up encouraging corruption while such procedures are better managed within companies. Enron and Satyam scandals for instance. I've been offered bribes by subcontractors while working for a pvt company just as same I've been offered bribes while working in a PSU. In retrospect I was too dumb and idealistic and ended up turning them down

Exactly and in case of Satyam's case he ended up paying the price of it. Not enough for what he has done, but still he paid the price. In such scandals very rarely does that have direct impact on large scale for general public. Damages are mainly restricted to their stakeholders, employees and customers. But yes, there is a need for tougher regulatory changes even in private sector. But thats entirely different issue.

The reason there is that extra onus on public sector because these people are entrusted with the wealth and security of entire nation and not just some part of the society. When that is the case, there needs to be strict laws and legislation in place that actually punishes those who try to unduly benefit from their position of social servant.

Regularising private sector is entirely different and huge challenge. You cannot go on interfering in their internal matters because well, they are Private firms. All we can do is to have some strict financial regulations in place to curb the corruption in private sector. Singapore has successfully implemented it, US acted on it after Enron disaster and they even made licensed lobbying legal to curb the excessive corruption at that level long time back. We dont have anything like that. For this to change you first need to figure out the way to keep check on the private sector through regulatory bodies without impeding their day to day function and maintain their right to manage their own company while staying within the boundaries of laws of that country and rules that apply to them.

You go too far here and you loose incoming investments.

Things may not be morally correct in private sector, but unfortunately being a private sector grants them that right. For that to change there will need to be a fundamental change in the way this capitalist world runs.

 

[sid_donnydarko]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

@sid : You dont have to attack anyone directly to be argumentative.
You dont or rather shouldn't have to quote someone sentence by sentence to being your point across and deflect the attention away from the points made in that post. Thats what is done by few members here. Selective quoting without understanding the entire point of the post and deflection questions by questions is one sort of argument only. Make your argument on whole and not nitpick on 1 line at a time. When you start dissecting someone's a forum comment thats a sign that you cannot oppose what is being said completely and are just trying to have a last word in a discussion.

What you've typed above is exactly what i'm trying to convey. If i'd been a little more sensible than i would've sent you a PM regarding this issue. But i only pointed you out openly hoping that others would not repeat the same. When you read through the entire thread, you'll notice that blr_p has faithfully replied to everyone's post(more so than any other member) and after 30 pages someone is bound to mistake blr_p's enthusiasm for mindless arguments. This is what i want everyone to avoid when i quoted your earlier post.

There is a perfect term used by one member for that few pages ago. I wont repeat that to cause another stir.
You call those who support the movement brainwashed, how are the people who oppose it any different. They say they dont condone the corruption and try to stay politically correct by saying they are not against the scope of Jan Lokpal bill, but at the same times oppose the movement or person. What do you call that?

Do you really believe that the minority of people who oppose a movement, that could potentially benefit them in the distant future(if not near), have been brainwashed by something/someone? Social psychology proves that herd mentality(majority) is a direct consequence of influence and brainwashing. But this is not to say that the minority who oppose the majority are free of influence. The minority base their decision-making on deep analysis with little influence. Deeper analysis broadens thinking and this gives the minority the courage to oppose the larger herd.

 

[Shripad]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

What you've typed above is exactly what i'm trying to convey. If i'd been a little more sensible than i would've sent you a PM regarding this issue. But i only pointed you out openly hoping that others would not repeat the same. When you read through the entire thread, you'll notice that blr_p has faithfully replied to everyone's post(more so than any other member) and after 30 pages someone is bound to mistake blr_p's enthusiasm for mindless arguments. This is what i want everyone to avoid when i quoted your earlier post.

Do you really believe that the minority of people who oppose a movement, that could potentially benefit them in the distant future(if not near), have been brainwashed by something/someone? Social psychology proves that herd mentality(majority) is a direct consequence of influence and brainwashing. But this is not to say that the minority who oppose the majority are free of influence. The minority base their decision-making on deep analysis with little influence. Deeper analysis broadens thinking and this gives the minority the courage to oppose the larger herd.

^^ I got your point. That is what I was trying to say. Its incorrect to assume that those people who are supporting the movement are brainwashed. Heard mentality or Mob mentality is mainly the term used for disruptive actions of a mob or a public that go against the common sense or against collective good of the society. What we saw in London recently is an example of that. What we saw at Ayodhya and Gujarat in our country is example of that.

What we saw here recently, what we saw in Egypt are examples of social uprising for the right cause.

What we see in Libya today is armed uprising against a corrupt system

Saying this is a result of mob mentality will be insulting the cause behind it. But even then you are free to make up your own mind

This is and will be my last post here until something drastically changes in coming days. Lets give the government time to act on their promises.

Peace out.

 

[blr_p]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

What I see as fundamentally wrong about this whole movement is the fact that there is hardly any outcry about the corporates who form the other side of the equation and have gained far more benefit from the scams than the govt themselves and who incidentally are also furthest from the reach of the law. Nah, lets just put the screws to the govt servant who is already bound by a bunch of regulations instead.

If we go after corporates then we are going to be in trouble. Is the time right now or ten years from now. The US has very strict laws and it can get away with it because it has the market everybody craves. We need to be able to develop a market like that before tightening down.

We're still in the process of devloping here, there has to be freedom to use capital to develop the market. Not everything that is done is going to be above water but the benefits could outweigh the cons. Its a question of perspective. So much is said about 2g & cwg, what about all the other transactions that were not fraudlent.

How much of the pie do fraudlent transactions make up ? if they are in the majority then the time for this movement has come otherwise its pre-emptive.

The poor are up in arms beause they say the country is being looted, but how much taxes do they pay. If country was not being looted that money could be used to develop a lot more. It could be used in benefits & handouts. Some of these grieveances are legitimate, others is just creating a welfare class. But i think the larger point here is there are ppl that do not beenfit from our growth, reforms for the last twnety years has meant nothing to them and they sight of others doing well is causing friction. If thats the case then this movement is a lot more benign that it could have been and is a signal that govt has to bite the bullet at some point and go in for reforms 2.0

Makes me wonder who actually is directing this and who told the media to portray the movement in the way it has.

Media are just taking part in this surprise bonanza. Doing what they always do, building a person up so they can reap the windfall and with power to dump that person in the ocean when the ends are not served. They see a positive reinforcement here, they pump AH up, more ppl watch its win-win. Typical media SOP.

How would media feel if they were brought into lokpal ? nobody is asking that question.

What will bennet coleman do in that case. no more paid news.

See, as we decide to apply this idea throughout society and go beyond govt, the problems start to appear. i think for now keeping it to govt should be good enough. They occupy positions of power which effect the lives of many, they need to be held to a higher std than others. If they cannot accept bribes then the chances of offering bribes should technically decrease. course thats not the end of it because it just moves into areas that are not as regulated. So the net effect is of cleaning up areas of the system where performance is bad. That could be seen as a net good.

Recall from reading in the past, that the three biggest areas of corruption within govt are
- govt contracts
- real estate
- mining

These could do with a look over. Course if real estate gets a good looking into, forget doubling your money on your house inside of a few years, it will take longer. Then again it makes housing more affordable so that could be a plus for the majority.

Reading about the HK lokpal and see they have moved more into private space nowadays as govt complaints have dropped considerably than what they were in the past. Their org is 35+ years old now.

So that gives you an idea of the logical progression of where a lokpal's ambit will move to with time. The biigger problem for now is cleaning up govt.

 

[avi]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

Is this another chain message ? If following is true, then I feel shame :

Who is Sonia Gandhi:

There is officially no Sonia Gandhi. Her real name in passport is neither Gandhi nor Sonia. Its Edvige Antonia Albina Maino. Sonia is a Russian name and not italian. However, Antonia is an italian name and her passport is italian. Though she has married Rajiv Gandhi* she never accepted change of title officially. ( recall the time of turmoil in indian politics when Sonia Gandhi was trying to be the prime minister, but ultimately ManMohan Singh became her toy)
*Rajiv Gandhi: Actually Rajiv Khan being the son of Feroze Khan and Indira Priyadarshani Nehru. Gandhi is an assumed title to sentimentally lure indians for their political benefit.
Father:

Stefano Eugene Maino is socially the father of Sonia. Her father was a German(hitlers army). When Hitlers army went to russia they were captured and imprisoned. He was captured near St. Petersburgh and was imprisoned for 20 years. But he became a member of KGB and his imprisonment was limited to 4 years. When he came back from prison he gave russian name to his daughters. Social father because when she was born her father was in jail for 4 years. Biological father is unconfirmed.

Mother:

Paula Maino.

Family:

She had 2 sistersin Orbassano, italy

Birthplace

Sonia claims she was born in Besano, near Turin in italy. However, as per her birth certificate, She is actually born is Luciana, in the borders of Switzerland. A resort town for German soldiers during war.

Education:

She initially put forward to Indian Govt. that she studied in Cambridge University which proved to be fake. She submitted an affidavit that she studied english in Bell Education trust at Cambridge. Even this was proven to be fake and was found she never got any education after class five. She was a young girl with no formal education living five years in england. How did she support her livelihood for 5 years? Any wild guesses?

Citizenship:

She has not given off her italian citizenship. Indira Gandhi used her power to issue her an Indian Citizenship so that she can join Indian politics. She is holding an illegal citizenship in India. No action is being taken by Home Minister.

Religion:

Cristianity.

Bank Balance:

Rajiv Gandhi and his family owned 2 billion USD in Swiss Bank as of November,1991. Benefitiary of death of Indira Gandhi and Rajiv Gandhi was Sonia Gandhi.

Family:

Sonia's sister Alexandria(or Anuska) has 2 shops in Italy selling antiques stolen from India. Sonia used her power to smuggle indian artifacts through Air India flights uninspected.

Sonia's son Rahul Gandhi, whose real name is Raul Vinci. He got admitted to Harvard in quota but was thrown off soon because he was incompetant. He has italian citizenship since his mother never gave up her citizenship. He cannot officially become the citizen of india or any politician in india as long as he doesnt give up his italian citizenship. Arrested in Boston airport for carrying 160,000 dollars cash, accompanied by Veronique (spanish). veronique is the daughter of Drug mafia leader. Rahul has also been accused for gang raping Sukanya Devi, whose petition to all courts in India have been rejected due to their political hold and the whereabouts of the family is unknown. However, the information is widely available online.
**********Friends PLEASE DO SHARE this information with the people because only general awareness can cure this nation and the corrupt government will never reveal the truth ************
Sources:
Dr. Subramanian Swamy raises questions regarding nationality of Sonia Gandhi

Dr. Subramanian Swamy raises questions regarding nationality of Sonia Gandhi.mp4 - YouTube

Miscellanuous reports that Antonia Maino worked as excort services in England

All about Sonia Gandhi (Antonia Maino): Sonia's mystery reveals here... Capture India under mafia and papacy hold.

Sonia Gandhi Worked in Escorts services .The Lady Jane Lovelies Escorts service « Hindu Internet Defence Force

Rahul Gandhi accused for Rape Charges

Questions over Rahul Gandhi's charges of rape in Greater Noida

RAHUL GANDHI'S GANG RAPE OF SUKANYA DEVI

Rahul Gandhi Involved In Gang Rape

Rahul Gandhi Involved in Gang Rape - eCharcha.Com

rahul gandhi sukanya devi - Google Search
and many others.............

Google shown me this - HC issues notice to Rahul Gandhi for girl's illegal detention - Economic Times Guys later what happened ? Sorry for OT

 

[sid_donnydarko]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

^^ I got your point. That is what I was trying to say. Its incorrect to assume that those people who are supporting the movement are brainwashed. Heard mentality or Mob mentality is mainly the term used for disruptive actions of a mob or a public that go against the common sense or against collective good of the society. What we saw in London recently is an example of that. What we saw at Ayodhya and Gujarat in our country is example of that.

What we saw here recently, what we saw in Egypt are examples of social uprising for the right cause.

What we see in Libya today is armed uprising against a corrupt system

Saying this is a result of mob mentality will be insulting the cause behind it. But even then you are free to make up your own mind

This is and will be my last post here until something drastically changes in coming days. Lets give the government time to act on their promises.

Peace out.

I don't know where you read this but Mob/Herd Mentality does not demean a sociological phenomenon.

Even if you personally feel it does.