Putting Jacques Villeneuve in the same league as Mansell, Prost, Schumacher, Vettel is blasphemy. Sure they had dominant cars in the years you mentioned, but conveniently neglect the fact they also won in inferior machinery or against super competitive team mates in earlier seasons. Schumacher's '97 Ferrari was nowhere as fast as the Williams and yet he gave them a run for their points till he got DQ'ed. Mansell, Prost went head-to-head against Rosberg and Senna. The only two competitive team-mates Villenueve had to go up against were Button and Massa, who were pretty raw at that point and yet out drove him. In fact, the '96,'97 grids were laughable if you compare it with today's grid or the late 80s. Put Villenueve in any of those grids and he would've been completely destroyed.
Car & Bike Formula 1 2012 Thread
- Thread starter sunny27
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Putting Jacques Villeneuve in the same league as Mansell, Prost, Schumacher, Vettel is blasphemy. Sure they had dominant cars in the years you mentioned, but conveniently neglect the fact they also won in inferior machinery or against super competitive team mates in earlier seasons. Schumacher's '97 Ferrari was nowhere as fast as the Williams and yet he gave them a run for their points till he got DQ'ed. Mansell, Prost went head-to-head against Rosberg and Senna. The only two competitive team-mates Villenueve had to go up against were Button and Massa, who were pretty raw at that point and yet out drove him. In fact, the '96,'97 grids were laughable if you compare it with today's grid or the late 80s. Put Villenueve in any of those grids and he would've been completely destroyed.
prabs
Skilled
Just had to post this.
If '96 and '97 grids were laughable then what do you make of some of the pay drivers today? It is rumored that Kamui will be replaced for a Mexican Pay Driver as Perez has left Sauber for McLaren and Sauber needs Telmex's money.
Talking about '97 - Schumi like Alonso this year didn't have the best car but was not far off. Same with the others. You simply cannot put a car beyond it's limits and come out on top.
I honestly don't believe in drivers who people claim work miracles in cars.
Alonso is no miracle worker this year, his car was handful at the start but it has been consistent and strong through out the year and he is just downplaying it's abilities right from the start and Massa is just a jobber. This way he gets praised for just finishing anywhere near the front and has less pressure on him because most think he is doing wonders with that car. This also means that if he wins the championship it was the great Alonso but if Vettel wins it was the Car. A win win situation for Fred and a loose loose situation for Vettel.
Also the tyres were changed in '98. Many have attributed Jacques his decline to his failure to adapt to the grooved tyres.
The 'if' which is a big 'What IF' is what if the tyres were never changed, what if in '98 Williams had a powerful engine and what if Jacques had not turned into a journeyman.
I never claimed anyone worked miracles with any car. Just a case of the driver in the slower car able to extract more than the driver in the faster car. No one can exceed the car's physical limits and I'm fully aware of that. Anyway, Villenueve will always be a matter of opinion for most of us armchair experts and a point of contention.
That's another reason why JV isn't considered that good. Failure to adapt is the difference between most "good" vs the really good. For example, most have attributed Massa's decline to his accident, Alonso's numero uno status in the team, etc but Massa in most interviews puts the blame on the tyres. It's quite evident because the chasm between Alonso and Massa opened up in 2011 - a classic case of failure to adapt, which has made Massa into another journeyman.
I agree that today's rookie pay drivers are laughable, but there's no denying that the top half of today's grid is very strong unlike late 90s when you would watch a race for a couple of drivers.
Also, your opinion on Alonso-Vettel seems to be based on the discussions on some other forum. I fully respect both the drivers and in my opinion both are equally deserving of the WDC this year.
prabs said:
That's another reason why JV isn't considered that good. Failure to adapt is the difference between most "good" vs the really good. For example, most have attributed Massa's decline to his accident, Alonso's numero uno status in the team, etc but Massa in most interviews puts the blame on the tyres. It's quite evident because the chasm between Alonso and Massa opened up in 2011 - a classic case of failure to adapt, which has made Massa into another journeyman.
I agree that today's rookie pay drivers are laughable, but there's no denying that the top half of today's grid is very strong unlike late 90s when you would watch a race for a couple of drivers.
Also, your opinion on Alonso-Vettel seems to be based on the discussions on some other forum. I fully respect both the drivers and in my opinion both are equally deserving of the WDC this year.
prabs
Skilled
@tifosi - Sorry for the late reply.
My opinion on the Alonso-Vettel tussle is my own. If I do wish to voice my opinion in a different forum I would do it there and not here.
In ways I will admit JV was a joke. You can say that the year he won the title he should have dominated the way Vettel did last year or Schumi did in 2004. If after turn 1 they are number 1 switch off the TV.
The reason I commented on Alonso is because he constantly downplays Vettel and always says it is the car. Driver and Car together are a package and one cannot make a difference without the other. It is up for speculation if Webber and Massa are the unfavored step children in their respective garages and may be that is why they can't challenge their co-drivers. If they are both unhindered then their counterparts are simply better and making the most of their cars in this case they are both equally deserving.
My opinion on the Alonso-Vettel tussle is my own. If I do wish to voice my opinion in a different forum I would do it there and not here.
In ways I will admit JV was a joke. You can say that the year he won the title he should have dominated the way Vettel did last year or Schumi did in 2004. If after turn 1 they are number 1 switch off the TV.
The reason I commented on Alonso is because he constantly downplays Vettel and always says it is the car. Driver and Car together are a package and one cannot make a difference without the other. It is up for speculation if Webber and Massa are the unfavored step children in their respective garages and may be that is why they can't challenge their co-drivers. If they are both unhindered then their counterparts are simply better and making the most of their cars in this case they are both equally deserving.
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I think it would really be a shame if there is no action in the last GP today, I hope somehow there is a lot of controversy, I basically hope the best for Force India, I hope that Alonso grabs the title, but it would be tough quite less chance for him, I hope at least the Race will be worth watching.
Haha good suggestion, I don't think Massa can do the job, Alonso needs Maldonado or the back-markers to do the job.
Jakob
Skilled
Ya
