Front loading or top loading washing machine?

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I don't know if you are aware but at least here in Mumbai, 90% of the technicians out there simply persuade customers, almost force them to not go with anything inverter by saying that kharcha zaada badhta hai and that it gets damaged soon. Therefore they say it's not worth it even in ACs as well as washing machines.

Many washing machines have inverter motors these days. You can see what it does by reading here

The techs slam them because they can't repair them and the card that goes can cost a bit to replace. But this is unlikely to go during the lifetime of the machine.

If it gets damaged soon then I'd wonder about the quality of the power those machines are getting. Is it stable? under volting, overvolting etc.

Maybe use a stabiliser with the washing machine

 

[ravirai001]

Many washing machines have inverter motors these days. You can see what it does by reading here

The techs slam them because they can't repair them and the card that goes can cost a bit to repair. But this is unlikely to go during the lifetime of the machine.

If it gets damaged soon then I'd wonder about the quality of the power those machines are getting. Is it stable? under volting, overvolting etc.

Lol that makes sense why they'd slam it. In Mumbai, for the most part, the power is stable. Same with my place here. I do actually have an inverter air conditioner that has been running since 2017 July when it was first purchased. Well, no, it has been repaired but that wasn't the card. It was a gas leak and needed refilling.

 

[lockhrt999]

I don't know if you are aware but at least here in Mumbai, 90% of the technicians out there simply persuade customers, almost force them to not go with anything inverter by saying that kharcha zaada badhta hai and that it gets damaged soon. Therefore they say it's not worth it even in ACs as well as washing machines.

Yes. I expect them to say that. There's a friction everytime there's a change in technology. There's a whole ecosystem that sales aftermarket spares.

Try to understand what inverter AC/fridge/washing machine is. It has nothing to do with inverter that provides power backup BTW.

Normally, most electrical appliances have a single speed motor. To vary the RPM and direction, transmission consisting various cogs, clutch etc are used. Similar to your gas guzzling car. But on the other hand, inverter motor rotates at any RPM and in any direction. So it doesn't need complex gearing or clutch. It's like an Electric Vehicle motor which is directly connected to wheels.

Inverter washing machines have only one moving part and that's the inverter motor itself. And all companies are giving 10+ years of warranty on this one moving part.

TBH, inverter stuff should be cheaper than non-inverter stuff. Because inverter stuff has simpler mechanics than non-inverter stuff.

I have opened my last top loader washing machine several times for repair purpose. It had complicated mechanicals. Now, I had a look up at the mechanicals of my new inverter front loader which is 3 times the price. There's nothing to repair there. Apart from a tiny inverter motor, there's absolutely nothing. And that motor is warranted for 10 years. It's all empty.

 

[ravirai001]

Yes. I expect them to say that. There's a friction everytime there's a change in technology. There's a whole ecosystem that sales aftermarket spares.

Try to understand what inverter AC/fridge/washing machine is. It has nothing to do with inverter that provides power backup BTW.

Normally, most electrical appliances have a single speed motor. To vary the RPM and direction, transmission consisting various cogs, clutch etc are used. Similar to your gas guzzling car. But on the other hand, inverter motor rotates at any RPM and in any direction. So it doesn't need complex gearing or clutch. It's like an Electric Vehicle motor which is directly connected to wheels.

Inverter washing machines have only one moving part and that's the inverter motor itself. And all companies are giving 10+ years of warranty on this one moving part.

TBH, inverter stuff should be cheaper than non-inverter stuff. Because inverter stuff has simpler mechanics than non-inverter stuff.

I have opened my last top loader washing machine several times for repair purpose. It had complicated mechanicals. Now, I had a look up at the mechanicals of my new inverter front loader which is 3 times the price. There's nothing to repair there. Apart from a tiny inverter motor, there's absolutely nothing. And that motor is warranted for 10 years. It's all empty.

Oh yeah, I am aware of what inverter itself means in this context, I just was confused about all the fearmongering. I was wondering if IFB is a good company to buy a front loader from.

 

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This is the 6kg version of the machine i have. Not had this problem yet but the fix is simple for an otherwise frustrating problem

Thank you so much for sharing this video. It's really helpful. Same problem occurred in our machine 2 days back.. We registered complaint in LG customer care and technician visited and said motor board is rusted and needs to be replaced. It will cost approx 7k for the same. Then after seeing your video, we ordered WD 40 (Rs 222) and it came today. We tested it out and after spray we waited for 10 mins to get the rust clean and it works wonders. Thank you so much for saving our hard earned money. God bless you

 

[nRiTeCh]

What about different detergent liquids for top and front load?
Whats the logic or science in this?
I was told by samsung guy its all marketing gimmick and nothing else.

 

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What about different detergent liquids for top and front load? Whats the logic or science in this?

You use more water in a top load than a front load so that requires a different formulation. So match the detergent to the machine.

Top load detergent creates more foam than front load. You need the foam in a top load to carry away dirt and lint. You don't want foam in a front loader as it cushions the wash action and decreases wash performance. So you see that a detergent needs to be formulated differently if you want the best performance. If you want some jack of all trades then yeah I guess Tide will work too.

I've pointed this out earlier when the detergent instruction from Tide says to use the same detergent for both top & front load and the only difference seems to be the dosing. Typically 1.5-2x more for the top load. I don't trust those instructions. When asking P&G to clarify they were polite but over two months later never answered my queries.

You don't see this from Surf. They have specific products for either. Be it powder or liquid they clearly tell you which to use for top or front load. That alone should tell you they will clean better than some all-in-one detergent. Tide apparently disagrees. They've been making top load detergent for ages but the way they specify front load in the US is this 'HE' term for high efficiency. That term isn't used anywhere else.

I was told by samsung guy its all marketing gimmick and nothing else.

I've seen people say they can barely tell the difference in terms of cleaning when using cheap over more pricey detergent from say Ariel or Surf. If the clothes are normally soiled you won't be able to tell the difference by just looking. There are tools to check this with test stain samples. In fact, I'd not be surprised if cheap hand wash detergent might clean better since it contains more optical brighter and is harsher with higher pH.

How do you explain to someone who says her detergent is cheaper and cleans better than Ariel or Surf detergent?

What isn't known by these techs is detergents made for machines are different to hand wash detergents. They aren't pH buffered and over time can cause issues with front loaders. I have no other way to explain a disintegrated drum support spider otherwise.

 

[Mr.J]

What about different detergent liquids for top and front load?
Whats the logic or science in this?
I was told by samsung guy its all marketing gimmick and nothing else.

Front load uses less water than top load so their formula is decided based on that use case. If you use top load liquid in front load it will leave some residue behind.

 

[adder]

What about different detergent liquids for top and front load?
Whats the logic or science in this?
I was told by samsung guy its all marketing gimmick and nothing else.

Less foam in front load. Also the SS drum in the front load is held by two bearings, the inner bearing towards the drum has a bearing seal made of rubber.

Because the load of the drum shaft on the seal and bearing is radial ( vs Axial for top loading machines seal), as the drum shakes there will be a very minute flexing of the seal as the drum is shaking around, any foam build up can wash away slowly the grease present in the lip of the seal, this in turn causes more friction in the seal due to the lubricant(grease) being washed away by foam, which leads to premature seal failure and overtime will then result in soap water making its way to the inner bearing and causing rust in the bearing and also washing away the grease in the bearing.

When you put a regular detergent or a top load detergent chances are the foam is going to come out of the door, during wash cycle. If these can get past the door gasket, it can also get past the bearing seal at the back.

 

[nRiTeCh]

Thanks that cleared the air.
So its like front load detergents can be used in top load but not the other way...

Also, is it wise to opt for front load wrt efficiency and cleaning and other technical factors?

I'm looking to buy one may be in upcoming sale and family women etc. all suggesting top load.
I'm unable to decide wrt features, pricing factor, technicalities etc.

 

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Check out the drum spider failure here. Do you notice anything unique ?

Typically the failure occurs near the centre. Not from the sides. That is because detergent and foam end up coating the spider and water never gets there to wash it away. Even in a drum clean. Unless you increase the water levels manually by pouring in more water.

If water could be allowed to splash near the centre it would dissolve any soap residue that accumulates, this residue forms a coating which is alkaline, and repeated washing just wets it and it eats away over time at the drum spider.

Now to clean that area means a higher water level, this water will get closer to the bearing seals and possibly weaken them.

I don't know how you clean that area without affecting the drum seals

Any ideas @adder ?

So its like front load detergents can be used in top load but not the other way...

Front load detergent foams less and won't carry away dirt and lint as effectively as a top load detergent. So no, don't use front load detergent in a top loader. It's also more expensive than top load detergent.

Also, is it wise to opt for front load wrt efficiency and cleaning and other technical factors?

40 degrees washes better than colder water with the detergents we get in India. If you can use a solar water heater that delivers water at that temperature you will get similar wash quality as a front loader that also washes at that temperature. Human sebum melts at 30 degrees. So i don't see how you get good cleaning at low temperatures.

I'm looking to buy one may be in upcoming sale and family women etc. all suggesting top load.
I'm unable to decide wrt features, pricing factor, technicalities etc.

There is more back bending involved with front load. You deal with this by sitting on a stool when loading/unloading. Not a big deal.

Why are they suggesting top load ? is it price or force of habit?

How hard is your water and what is your water pressure like ?

 

[6pack]

> Why are they suggesting top load ? is it price or force of habit?

Probably because it can be stopped in between and extra clothes put in once the cycle starts. I don't know if that can be done with front loader.

 

[adder]

Typically the failure occurs near the centre. Not from the sides.


I don't know how you clean that area without affecting the drum seals

Any ideas @adder ?

There is no way to reach that area. In my whirlpool when it was opened up after 9 years for a bearing and seal change, the spider was in remarkably good shape, no noticeable wear at all.
Most of the spider failers are reported in samsung, as I have said repeatedly in this and other forums like tbhp avoid samsung like a plague. In the US there was a lawsuit regarding this if I remember correctly.

Some of the Chinese brands or rebadged chinese brands also have this failure.
Chinese brands are Haier, motorola, amazon basics or those N-number of brands that crop on flipkart.
Motorola and amazon basics does have a removable drum but other spare support is a big question.

Samsung material choice for the spider is poor either they are that incompetent or that greedy for planned obsolescence.

Whirlpool, Bosch/Siemens, LG don't have this problem. Out of this only LG has a removable drum( some Panasonic models also has removable drum) for all of their front load models, for a cheap bearing change if required.

> Why are they suggesting top load ? is it price or force of habit?

Probably because it can be stopped in between and extra clothes put in once the cycle starts. I don't know if that can be done with front loader.

Mostly price, Front loads where present in India since 90s but the high cost 2x to 3x meant that most went with semi-auto or top load.

In 08 when i was looking to replace my semi auto, I didn't consider the front load at all but after seeing the top load, flimsy plastic build and gimmicks present in their drum( thinking of all the gears required to turn all those mini agitators and what not.

After seeing a front load build and wash quality, one can never ever go back to a topload.

In some front load machines one can add clothes at a later time when the machine is filling with water like in LG, this off course will cause the machine to recalculate the time to finish the program, if the cloths are already wet by water filling in, time can jump by several hrs. Since the machine doesn't know whether the weight is due to water or that many clothes. So till date I have used this function only once due to this.

In some samsung they have a small door on the main door to add clothes.

 

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There is no way to reach that area.

If you fill water so its half way up the port you have reached it. But here is the problem...

Because the load of the drum shaft on the seal and bearing is radial ( vs Axial for top loading machines seal), as the drum shakes there will be a very minute flexing of the seal as the drum is shaking around, any foam build up can wash away slowly the grease present in the lip of the seal, this in turn causes more friction in the seal due to the lubricant(grease) being washed away by foam, which leads to premature seal failure and overtime will then result in soap water making its way to the inner bearing and causing rust in the bearing and also washing away the grease in the bearing.

Why is it that the minute flexing of a top loader seal does not affect its integrity even though submerged but the seal of a front load is much more vulnerable?

Cannot fill water that high or the front loader bearing seals get weakened

When you put a regular detergent or a top load detergent chances are the foam is going to come out of the door, during wash cycle. If these can get past the door gasket, it can also get past the bearing seal at the back.

You can see why someone used to seeing foam in a top loader would not recognise it as a problem with a front loader. So they will use any detergent, they see foam and ignore it. They have to be made aware that foam in a front loader is not a good thing.

In my whirlpool when it was opened up after 9 years for a bearing and seal change, the spider was in remarkably good shape, no noticeable wear at all.
Most of the spider failers are reported in samsung, as I have said repeatedly in this and other forums like tbhp avoid samsung like a plague. In the US there was a lawsuit regarding this if I remember correctly.

Some of the Chinese brands or rebadged chinese brands also have this failure.
Chinese brands are Haier, motorola, amazon basics or those N-number of brands that crop on flipkart.
Motorola and amazon basics does have a removable drum but other spare support is a big question.

Samsung material choice for the spider is poor either they are that incompetent or that greedy for planned obsolescence.

Whirlpool, Bosch/Siemens, LG don't have this problem. Out of this only LG has a removable drum( some Panasonic models also has removable drum) for all of their front load models, for a cheap bearing change if required.

If you could fill a front loader halfway for a drum clean cycle I guarantee there will be no spider failure from any brand washer with any detergent. I believe solving this spider problem really is that simple. Regular tub clean cycles will remove any detergent residue that accumulates around the centre and the spider will be pristine.

But there seems to be a FL design constraint here

 

[adder]

Why is it that the minute flexing of a top loader seal does not affect its integrity even though submerged but the seal of a front load is much more vulnerable?


If you could fill a front loader halfway for a drum clean cycle I guarantee there will be no spider failure from any brand washer with any detergent. I believe solving this spider problem really is that simple. Regular tub clean cycles will remove any detergent residue that accumulates around the centre and the spider will be pristine.

Thats because in a front load the shaft puts a radial force on the seal, even when the drum is not moving or rotating, think of the shaft forces acting in the direction like when you move a game console joystick, but in micro meter movement, as the bearing life gets over the play will be more, so that micro meter will slowly start incing towards millimeter of play.
In my whirlpool for example the stock no name chinese bearings had a c2 rating, I replaced with some 5x the price SKF C0 rated bearings, lower this rating less the deflection between the bearing outer and inner ring, so if the bearing itself is crappy and has a lot of play the seal will give out sooner.

In the top load machine the drum when its not rotating exerts a axial force, thing of it like the force in the direction when you push a button.
Also its not that the top loading bearing seal doesn't fail, they too fail over time. Its just that its not a sealed unit like most of the front load machines., unless the manufactures have become more innovative by following the planned obsolescence method even on top load.

As far as the spider, this is mainly due to poor choice of materials and has little to do with detergent. Yes a clean spider will help. If the manufacturer wishes they could have used stainless steel on the spider also, to save cost they went with a alloy, with the samsung being the worst, with a average span of 3 to 4 years before it disintegrates.

The old IFB machines sold in 90s and before 2003 all had bearings on the outside of the tub and the bearings itself where huge, even the tub was made of stainless steel and the spider in those where really thick ones and they last decades. As do the Miele machines, which also have externally placed bearings( but their spares are overall just too expensive).

 

[lockhrt999]

I don't know how you clean that area without affecting the drum seals

Force pressured water through holes using a simple water hose?

Samsung material choice for the spider is poor either they are that incompetent or that greedy for planned obsolescence.

Samsung has built such a big reputation that a few bad products aren't going to put dent into that. For a company that big, it makes business sense to opt for planned obsolescence.

 

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Force pressured water through holes using a simple water hose?

This is what someone suggested in another forum. Drill a hole at the top of the tub. Put a hose in there and run it when the drum is spinning. But this is getting into modding.

Putting water down the passage detergent goes through won't adequately target the spider. Hmm, maybe I need to put a borescope down there and see

Samsung has built such a big reputation that a few bad products aren't going to put dent into that. For a company that big, it makes business sense to opt for planned obsolescence.

I will be very surprised if your spider breaks in less than five years.

The way i see it is LG uses stronger spiders because of the torque that direct drive creates. Other manufacturers that use belt drives don't need to build as strong a spider.

Part of the problem of explaining why spiders deteriorate is also explaining why they don't under certain circumstances.

 

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I've been having problems with powder detergent not dissolving completely in the drawer over the past few weeks. So i cleaned out the filters. There is also a little wire mesh at the back that i cleaned out with some earbuds. I Never touched this mesh in six years, there was a little buildup on it. This is for an LG washer btw. These inlet valves can be different from other brands but the fix is the same.

There was some improvement but not much. Invariably I'd have to add a mug of water ten minutes after the wash began to flush it into the machine. And the thing with powder detergent is if it gets damp then it just becomes hard and does not move. Next, I checked the water pressure in the taps and discovered it was half the pressure of the other bathroom. The washing machine never complained, it just waited for the water to come and then started the cycle. The problem was the detergent not washing away.

Called the plumber who dismantled the vale on the outside and there was a buildup of silt and some small rocks in the pipe. Once all those drained out, the water pressure was back to normal for a tank that is two storeys above the machine and the powder washes away as it should. I've seen people complain about this dissolving problem and going for liquids. The fix is to check that valve outside and dismantle it to drain out debris.

 

[nRiTeCh]

There is no way to reach that area. In my whirlpool when it was opened up after 9 years for a bearing and seal change, the spider was in remarkably good shape, no noticeable wear at all.
Most of the spider failers are reported in samsung, as I have said repeatedly in this and other forums like tbhp avoid samsung like a plague. In the US there was a lawsuit regarding this if I remember correctly.

Some of the Chinese brands or rebadged chinese brands also have this failure.
Chinese brands are Haier, motorola, amazon basics or those N-number of brands that crop on flipkart.
Motorola and amazon basics does have a removable drum but other spare support is a big question.

Samsung material choice for the spider is poor either they are that incompetent or that greedy for planned obsolescence.

Whirlpool, Bosch/Siemens, LG don't have this problem. Out of this only LG has a removable drum( some Panasonic models also has removable drum) for all of their front load models, for a cheap bearing change if required.

So according to you:

Whirlpool, Bosch, Siemens, LG, Panasonic are the go to brands.

Samsung, Haier, motorola, amazon basics or those N-number of brands are to be avoided totally.

 

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So according to you:

Whirlpool, Bosch, Siemens, LG, Panasonic(?) are the go to brands.

Samsung, Haier, motorola, amazon basics or those N-number of brands are to be avoided totally.

Clear now ?

Someone will have to clarify re: Panasonic. We want to know if the drum is sealed or not. That is the criteria.

With Chinese brands, you might get people to fix things but spare parts are doubtful.

Too early to say anything about Chinese brands, they are a recent entry.