Front loading or top loading washing machine?

[Kaleen Bhaiya]

What about regular water? isn't that available for longer?

The corporation water is the regular water. The timing is from 7 am to 9am. I did have the delay wash functionality in mind but the longer wash cycle was a concern for me. The normal water also tastes a bit salty but not undrinkable.
So basically, I will have to ensure my load weighs less than 2kgs to ensure cycle winds up within 2 hours.

Can you post a link to it?

Those deposits are hard water deposits.

You sure? Coz if these are hard water deposits then it makes no difference between borewell water(salty, 24x7) and corporation water( 3 hours, still has some salts).

 

[**MaSh**]

Keep it simple and consider top load. Its easier on one's back too. Moreover top load are cheaper, easier to maintain and use. Most of these machines need a change every 7-8 years. Samsung, LG, Panasonic, etc make decent top loading machines which last the duration with little fuss.

MaSh

 

[blr_p]

So basically, I will have to ensure my load weighs less than 2kgs to ensure cycle winds up within 2 hours.

Yes or get salt-based water softener and use borewell water. You would have to do a water hardness test first to know the feasibility.

Spoiler

Another possibility is a polyphosphates-based water conditioner which prevents scale formation. This does not soften the water it just chemically modifies it so no scale deposits

Amazon.in

Those balls are the polyphosphate that conditions the water so no scale forms. You will have to replace those balls every 3 to 6 months.

Check out this Amazon review of IONIX spare filter cartridge set for washing machine/Shower/Geyser filter, Remove sediment & hardness from water(3 cartridges and 15 softnening balls)

Nice product...right price

www.amazon.in

Another company

Amazon.in

Polyphosphate water conditioning treatment works to prevent scale. The question is whether these company's implementation works or not?

Boiling works

Check out this Amazon review of IONIX 3 Stage pre filter for Water purifier, Triple protection for your Expensive water purifiers, Removes Sediment, Scaling and Hardness, Save your Expensive Water purifiers, 1 Set, White

No change in water parameters

www.amazon.in

^This review tests for hardness but that isn't the correct test for this kind of treatment.

Amazon.in

That's two stage. Will be better than the small dinky attachments with gaps between balls.

Phosphate based conditioning won't work if the borewell water has iron & Manganese. Can be used for city water which is hard but has the iron & manganese removed and here all they do is prevent scale formation. The water is still hard and your clothes will come out stiff due to the higher mineral content. The second caveat is unless it says suitable for hot water application then it will not prevent scale in a geezer heating element.

The hard water setting just runs a longer cycle. The attachment you are referring to from this video is known as Calstrait

Same snake oil as the one IFB offers

Insists on a 'filter' which is this one. Always refuse anything that is magnetic and claims to do water conditioning. It does not work and will do nothing.

See the red bolded text? read the linked bit

You sure? Coz if these are hard water deposits then it makes no difference between borewell water(salty, 24x7) and corporation water( 3 hours, still has some salts).

That could well be the case

 

[Kaleen Bhaiya]

So after much deliberation. I have decided to go with a TL. The cost shoots up if I go with a FL machine(machine + Kent softner). I might have to go with a softner regardless of which machine I go for. FL in total would cost me ~40k while TL will cost me ~30k or even less if I got with 7.5kgs.
I have this particular model in mind. What do you think about it?

Ordered the AQUASOL product to determine the hardness of my water.

 

[blr_p]

So after much deliberation. I have decided to go with a TL. The cost shoots up if I go with a FL machine(machine + Kent softner).

So does the water consumption if using a water softner. You will need a minimum of 120L (that's a guess) for a top loader but half that for a front loader.

You will have to talk to someone from Kent about water requirements and find out which model can supply that much water on demand.

I might have to go with a softner regardless of which machine I go for. FL in total would cost me ~40k while TL will cost me ~30k

Why not get the Sammy that @lockhrt999 has maybe you can get it for less like he did.

or even less if I got with 7.5kgs.

You won't have a lint filter with the 7.5kg and the drum will be smaller. 9.5kg is better

I have this particular model in mind. What do you think about it?

Yeah, not a fan. That model has been out for a few years now. It can work with half the pressure (17kPA) of mine (30kPa) which is already quite low. You won't have problems with pressure but it will take time to fill. The Sammy linked above wants 50kPa for reference.

There is no timer on this machine and the tinted glass is less useful

I had looked at them some time back and these are my thoughts

Spoiler

After looking at whirlpool's top loaders and comparing it with others here is what is missing that I think is important

- lacks a fabric softener compartment. This is a good thing in that people won't use fabric softener which should be avoided if you don't want to deal with a smelly machine later. But it is bad because you can't add other additives like Dettol laundry sanitiser or citric acid to neutralise excess detergent. You can add it manually if you watch it like a hawk and drop it in just as the last rinse cycle begins which detracts from the 'fully automatic' description.

- can't tweak anything. If you want an extra rinse then you have to run the rinse+spin program after the wash completes. Again, requiring manual intervention. Sammy, LG, IFB allow doing this when setting the program. If a whirlpool model comes out that allows the above that it could be considered.

The reviews on amazon are mixed so I found one on YT with more clarity

Creative and the 'mummy ka reaction' was priceless

Follow up after 2.5 years of owning it. He's satisfied. This is no sponsored review.

An uneven ground is going to lead to shaky spins. Balancing is required. Preferably with a spirit level.

Some loads will require counterbalancing. Same with a front loader. With my LG it tries 10 times then gives up.

Is IFB not an option? much better UI

Ordered the AQUASOL product to determine the hardness of my water.

Hopefully, that's the one that goes up to 1000 ppm since we have no idea what kind of water your borewell has.

 

[Kaleen Bhaiya]

So does the water consumption if using a water softner. You will need a minimum of 120L (that's a guess) for a top loader but half that for a front loader.

That is there, but then there are many uncertainties at this point too that I need to look into. I have no idea what would be the water situation during the summers. Also, don't know if I need to move again. So yeah, some factors are beyond my control atm.

You will have to talk to someone from Kent about water requirements and find out which model can supply that much water on demand.

I thought the water treatment at the run time would be fast. If the water discharge rate is like aquaguard or any RO system, I dunno how beneficial will it be even with the water from boring well since it will increase the wash time by a lot due to low pressure and less water.
Sammy's have a high failure rate. My friend's FL conked off within 4 years. Definitely not a worthy RoI. Offcourse he relied on boring water as there is no water supply from corporation.

Is IFB not an option? much better UI

I asked my cousin and he has IFB FL. He said his machine has been 3+ yo and he had to call the technician only once. That too it was not machine's fault but gunk inside hose filter leading to slower water filling. I am taking his word and trying to put my past experience with IFB FL behind.
I have seen some models and I like this model suitable. I hope it holds up good. Your thoughts?

I got my AQUASOL. Need to go through it during the weekend and will try to post the results.

 

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That is there, but then there are many uncertainties at this point too that I need to look into.

How are you managing laundry currently? hand wash or someone is doing it for you

An additional point in favour of FL's is the low wash volume. This means any additive you add will be less compared to a TL where it will increase proportionately.

I have no idea what would be the water situation during the summers.

Once the rains start more water seeps underground so it will become softer. The dry season which is now will have the hardest water.

Also, don't know if I need to move again. So yeah, some factors are beyond my control atm.

You will have to find a way to store the original box and packing. Engage some movers and take the machine and Kent softener with you wherever. Yes?

I thought the water treatment at the run time would be fast. If the water discharge rate is like aquaguard or any RO system, I dunno how beneficial will it be even with the water from boring well since it will increase the wash time by a lot due to low pressure and less water.

This is why you need to speak to someone at Kent and then post here what they said. The info says works with any machine but data like flow rate is what you want.

Sammy's have a high failure rate. My friend's FL conked off within 4 years. Definitely not a worthy RoI. Offcourse he relied on boring water as there is no water supply from corporation.

What does conked off mean? Spider failure is cheaper to fix on a Sammy with its unsealed tub than getting a new machine, isn't it? How did your friend maintain the machine? I know people whose Sammy lasted eight years and posted about a reviewer who managed 10. If you do boil washes once a month and have soft water you are good.

The catch is hard water. You need to be regular with descaler on a monthly basis. Hottest and longest wash. I bet your friend did not do that.

I asked my cousin and he has IFB FL. He said his machine has been 3+ yo and he had to call the technician only once. That too it was not machine's fault but gunk inside hose filter leading to slower water filling. I am taking his word and trying to put my past experience with IFB FL behind.

What about your past experience with an IFB FL ? Didn't know you even had one. Questions you asked when you got your LG FL made me think you were a first time FL user.

I have seen some models and I like this model suitable. I hope it holds up good. Your thoughts?

It has the console at the back which is good and it has a timer. I don't see any manual controls for setting wash duration or rinse. I guess those settings come only on the Koreans. I don't have these on my front loader and it has not affected me, i let the machine choose the duration or number of rinses based on its programming so maybe this isn't as big a deal as I thought. It has a fabric softener compartment so you can add additives which was missing in the whirlpool. I think it's important to have that and a timer for future proofing. You never know when you will need it and it can be helpful

In terms of wash action on the 8kg video, it seems the tub does not rotate like the Panasonic or Koreans. Just the impeller. So loading will matter here, must ball up clothes to increase movement during the wash cycle.

It's got a light inside and a spirit level to help with levelling. It's got wheels so you don't need a trolley.

It's a cold fill model. So heating is handled by the internal heater. In a video I saw, it takes 30 minutes to get to 30 degrees, 40 degrees is 40 minutes and 60 degrees is an hour. Those are estimates. This will depend on the temperature of your tap water.

How many rinse cycles does this thing do? it seems like just one. There is the option to increase it to 5 but 5 what? it's not times but minutes. So you can select a rinse time of 1-5 minutes.

People will say it's a top loader, it uses more water so one rinse is good enough. I disagree. Yes, it will take more time with a second rinse and use more water but a lot of problems can be avoided if clothes are properly rinsed. It's not practical to run an additional rinse and spin cycle, every single time (!). You want it automated. Set and forget. Let it take as long as it needs. Well, only 1 rinse is allowed on this model.

If you go to 7:00 the drawer says liquid detergent only. It's just an inner tray that can be removed to allow powder underneath confirmed by the reviewer so that's good.

Water consumption is 18L/kg/cycle so that is 162L for a full load of 9kg. That's your upper limit for water the softener has to provide over the cycle.

I got my AQUASOL. Need to go through it during the weekend and will try to post the results.

Check the manufacture date. Expiry is one year after with Aquasol. Hopefully, they sent you something fresh. If no manufacture date is found on the box, then return it.

The kit works it just won't be as accurate. Your call. I prefer not to use expired products, especially at the outset when you have no clue about hardness.

Test is quite easy, it works in steps of 50 so 50 ppm up to 1000 ppm and you will be somewhere in between.

To clean the sample tubes use distilled water or Aquafina. Get a couple of 1L bottles. Those will be low ppm and it's important to be able to properly clean the sample tubes when testing different samples as otherwise, your high ppm tap water will contaminate the result.

Spoiler

1) Test your corporation water and note down the hardness. Rinse the tube out with Aquafina/distilled water.
Next borewell water, and measure the hardness. Rinse the tube out with Aquafina/distilled water.

Repeat the test two more times. This is just practice to do the test and get you to rinse the tubes out with the distilled and NOT your tap water.


2) the next test requires you to have some Surf detergent. Get Surf top load and front load detergent.

FL uses 5L of water for the wash. So add that much borewell water to a bucket. Now add one scoop of detergent to it and mix it. When the detergent has dissolved. Measure the hardness. Rinse the tube out with Aquafina/distilled water.

Add a second scoop, mix and measure hardness again. Rinse the tube out with Aquafina/distilled water.

Here we are trying to understand the extent to which detergent alone can lower the hardness and by how much


TL uses more water. We will have to approximate this since a bucket is small and the TL typically uses 30-50L of water for a wash depending on the program

Fill the bucket to 10L. add a scoop, mix test hardness. Rinse the tube out with Aquafina/distilled water.
Then add a second scoop, mix and test the hardness. Rinse the tube out with Aquafina/distilled water.

You should have six numbers for hardness, borewell, corporation, borewell FL detergent (1 scoop), borewell FL detergent (2scoops), borewell TL detergent (1 scoop), borewell TL detergent (2 scoops)

I said to use borewell water as that is always available, if you want to try corporation water then go ahead and repeat the above two tests as well. You will have four more numbers.

 

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The same reviewer, Vikas again who I think is showing promise did a power consumption video earlier for every washing program on a recent model Samsung TL with a heater. This took a lot of effort to do so kudos to him

Program Name​	Power Consumed (kWh)​	Estimated Duration (h:m)​	Wash Duration (mins)​	Water Level​	Rinses (times)​	Spin Setting (1-5)​
Normal​	0.03​	0:53​	0:24​	7-8​	1​	3​
Quick Wash​	0.04​	0:42​	0:12​	9-10​	1​	3​
Delicates​	0.01​	0:44​	0:06​	5-6​	2​	1​
Bedding​	0.05​	1:33​	0:18​	7-8​	3​	3​
Hygiene Steam​	0.02​	4:11​	0:30​	3-4​	2​	3​
Jeans​	0.04​	1:07​	0:24​	7-8​	2​	3​
Energy Saving​	0.06​	1:01​	0:18​	7-8​	1​	3​

Straightway you can tell something isn't right with his figures
a) his power consumption figures across the board are too low. I'd expect double for his Normal program, 0.07kWh at least.

b) A 4h:11m Hygiene Steam program with heater consumed less power than the 0:42m Quick wash program or a 1h:01m Energy Savings program ?!? which did not use the heater. In fact, the energy savings program consumed three times more than the Hygiene Steam

c) He washed four pairs of Jeans and that jeans program consumes as much as the quick wash program?

Why ? because he's using a Wipro Smart plug. Such a lot of effort went into making this video, he ran the machine seven times and it all went to waste

@Kaleen Bhaiya , remember what I said about the accuracy of these Smart plugs? As a programmable timer switch it's perfectly fine but energy monitoring is a strict NO! This is a pity because, for a little more cost, they could have built a more reliable one.

Yeah, that Hygiene Steam cycle with the heater takes four hours !! Why though? I figure 30 minutes to do the wash, maybe 30 minutes to heat up the water, and there are two rinses. That should still put it under the 2h mark. Maybe there is a soak cycle thrown in there for good measure. That's like what half an hour tops. That still leaves 1h30m remaining

The only cycle that defaults to 3 rinses is the Bedding program. Three rinses for bedding. Wow. The number of rinses can be overridden for any wash program so you can have as many as you like.

See the way he loads the machine, does not ball up the clothes but it's never over the 70% mark. That is the max loading for a good wash.

 

[**MaSh**]

So after much deliberation. I have decided to go with a TL. The cost shoots up if I go with a FL machine(machine + Kent softner). I might have to go with a softner regardless of which machine I go for. FL in total would cost me ~40k while TL will cost me ~30k or even less if I got with 7.5kgs.
I have this particular model in mind. What do you think about it?

Ordered the AQUASOL product to determine the hardness of my water.

Are you sure you need a softener? Which city are you in?

I am in Bangalore and get the regular tanker water which is filthy and salty. I know how salty as i have a fish tank too which needs regulated water.

I exchanged my LG top loading mechine after almost 9 years of usage. Yes it was serviced twice during that period but both times not due to the hardness of water. The machine was used or rather abused almost everyday but never had issues with water being hard.

My current samsung top load is now around 2 years old and working absolutely fine.

However if you do want to get a softener then do consider the water flow rate. Else you could burn out the water pump in the machine.

MaSh

 

[lockhrt999]

Wow.

Steam is taking longer because I don't think it's an effective way to clean cloths. That's why brands are keeping the steam cycle longer. They include this feature only because we had a pandemic.

Energy saving cycle is the most energy exhaustive as per his readings. Lol

 

[blr_p]

Are you sure you need a softener?

A good question. Here's how to tell.

NB: The important point to note with this test is it must be done with soap. He used liquid soap. Not detergent as that will give a misleading result. No dishwash or laundry detergent that is formulated to handle some hard water. Only liquid soap like you would use as a substitute for regular bar soap.

His video is to show that conditioners are NOT softeners. The term gets used interchangeably and makes you think you are getting a solution for less, conditioners cost less and are maintenance free compared to ion exchange softeners. Like this for example. Course you will have to change the filter every few months.

Salt-free is what conditioners use. See this for another example. Prevents scaling but does not remove hardness. Suitable for bathing or cooking (no scale left in the pot) but not ideal for laundry because no foam or not enough foam equals lint left on the clothes in top loaders.

I am in Bangalore and get the regular tanker water which is filthy and salty.

Why don't you try the same test he did with some washing detergent? If it foams you don't need a softener. Though how much foam is subjective.

If it does not foam then depending on hardness you either use
a) an additive or
b) a salt-based softener like the Kent

Dishwashers use the same ion exchange mechanism which is why they need salt also. The dishes are washed in a consistent water quality that you set depending on your hardness. They don't use conditioners. They use a softener. Why? because softer water cleans better and uses less detergent. Up to 50% less than indicated on the box.

Less detergent in the machine, fewer problems later equals longer life, particularly in the case of front loaders. Top loaders are more tolerant but your wash quality isn't going to be great.

I know how salty as i have a fish tank too which needs regulated water.

So you must have a way of measuring the hardness in your aquarium then. What do you use?

Amazon.in

How to use it in this video. The one we want is GH I think. It uses German degrees of hardness so have to multiply by 17.8 to get ppm which the Aquasol gives.

I don't know what the KH means for laundry. It's a measure of Carbonate ions. It does have a meaning for fish though.

In laundry, we want a count of Calcium ions which the total hardness tests gives us.

I exchanged my LG top loading mechine after almost 9 years of usage. Yes it was serviced twice during that period but both times not due to the hardness of water. The machine was used or rather abused almost everyday but never had issues with water being hard.

My current samsung top load is now around 2 years old and working absolutely fine.

Tanker water quality can vary. Good, sometimes other times not and if bad then how bad? You don't know. Unless you measure hardness there is no way to know.

When you measure and say this is how much my water is and this is what I do then we have reference data that others can use.

Borewell water where I am is somewhere over 200 ppm. Because the water table is relatively high and gets refreshed often. That's hard but manageable. Not ideal but if you use more detergent the builders in the detergent (if it's a from a branded company) will soften the water

However if you do want to get a softener then do consider the water flow rate. Else you could burn out the water pump in the machine.

If the water does not arrive in time it throws a water inlet error. This is on machines that have a timer that expires after a certain time period set by the manufacturer. Then you have to reset the machine and let it continue. This is a PITA. Older machines did not have this timer and waited.

I don't see how the pump can burn out. Because it's not used. The pump is for emptying the washer or recirculating like in models with jet spray or water tower. Not filling.

Wow.

I think steam is taking longer because I don't think it's an effective way to clean cloths. That's why brands are keeping the steam cycle longer.

You would be right. a clothes steamer might be better if that's what you want

Do We Need Steam Washing Machines?

Do we really need washing machines with a steam function or is it just an expensive gimmick you really don't need

www.ukwhitegoods.co.uk

This is why I'd rather have a plain old heater than any steam in a machine.

They include this feature only because we had a pandemic.

Yeah, it's a marketing gimmick. Any laundry detergent, even soap for handwashing will do a lot of damage to the outer walls of the coronavirus. The odds of contracting coronavirus through infected laundry is ZERO.

Ariel Anti-Germ Matic Detergent Washing Powder 3+1 kg Detergent Powder 3 kg Price in India - Buy Ariel Anti-Germ Matic Detergent Washing Powder 3+1 kg Detergent Powder 3 kg online at Flipkart.com

Buy Ariel Anti-Germ Matic Detergent Washing Powder 3+1 kg Detergent Powder 3 kg for Rs. online. Ariel Anti-Germ Matic Detergent Washing Powder 3+1 kg Detergent Powder 3 kg at best prices with FREE shipping & cash on delivery. Only Genuine Products. 30 Day Replacement Guarantee.

www.flipkart.com

^Another example to exploit the pandemic. Repackaged ariel that says germ-free with nothing in it to kill germs. Nothing that P&G will admit to if you recall my emails to them.

Seems to have gone out of stock these days. Wonder why.

I have seen some models and I like this model suitable. I hope it holds up good. Your thoughts?

It's good except you cannot have more than one rinse unless you run an additional rinse+spin cycle

WOI755R0IN washing machine, top loader | BOSCH IN

WOI755R0IN washing machine, top loader | BOSCH IN

www.bosch-home.in

That model has all the features of the IFB but allows to add more rinses. It's only 7.5kg compared to the 9kg IFB

Didn't know Bosch did top loaders. They do only in India it seems. Prices are high as they might be imports from China. Will take time to make them in India I suppose. The Series 2 are made in India but requires a hookup to a hot water tap.

Bosch offers three types of top loaders. Cold fill with no heater. A hot fill which also has no heater and requires a connection to a hot water tap and it then mixes the water. And the last has an internal heater as linked above.

I thought the water treatment at the run time would be fast. If the water discharge rate is like aquaguard or any RO system, I dunno how beneficial will it be even with the water from boring well since it will increase the wash time by a lot due to low pressure and less water.

Let's look at the specs

Buy KENT Water Softener for Washing Machine in India

A large amount of calcium and magnesium salts in water causes hardness, which causes scaling in washing machines, yellowing of clothes, and reduces the efficiency of soaps and detergents. Bring home KENT Washing Machine Water Softener to make hard water soft at best price in India.

www.kent.co.in

The Kent user manual says it has a flow rate of 800L per hour which is good enough for a top loader and requires regeneration every 300-400L with a quarter kg of salt. You will have to test the water hardness with aquasol to get an idea of when to regenerate. It depends on your hardness. To delay this step requires their bigger bathroom model which needs regeneration after 1,200L so three times longer. It has a 5.5L resin reservoir compared to 1.8L and costs 12k. The bigger model only increases flow rate to 1000L per hour according to the manual

They say every 6 months to call the service guys to do a backwash and clear any blockages. You could do that yourself if you learn how from the guy. Blockages depends on the kind of salt used from what i can see. Though reviewers have said they just use normal salt.

 

[**MaSh**]

A good question. Here's how to tell.

His video is to show that conditioners are NOT softeners. The term gets used interchangeably and makes you think you are getting a solution for less, conditioners cost less and are maintenance free compared to ion exchange softeners. Like this for example. Course you will have to change the filter every few months.

Salt-free is what conditioners use. See this for another example. Prevents scaling but does not remove hardness. Suitable for bathing or cooking (no scale left in the pot) but not ideal for laundry because no foam or not enough foam equals lint left on the clothes in top loaders.

Why don't you try the same test he did with some washing detergent? If it foams you don't need a softener. Though how much foam is subjective.

If it does not foam then depending on hardness you either use
a) an additive or
b) a salt-based softener like the Kent

Dishwashers use the same ion exchange mechanism which is why they need salt also. The dishes are washed in a consistent water quality that you set depending on your hardness. They don't use conditioners. They use a softener. Why? because softer water cleans better and uses less detergent. Up to 50% less than indicated on the box.

Less detergent in the machine, fewer problems later equals longer life, particularly in the case of front loaders. Top loaders are more tolerant but your wash quality isn't going to be great.

So you must have a way of measuring the hardness in your aquarium then. What do you use?

Amazon.in

How to use it in this video. The one we want is GH I think. It uses German degrees of hardness so have to multiply by 17.8 to get ppm which the Aquasol gives.

I don't know what the KH means for laundry. It does have a meaning for fish though.

Tanker water quality can vary. Good, sometimes other times not and if bad then how bad? You don't know. Unless you measure hardness there is no way to know.

When you measure and say this is how much my water is and this is what I do then we have reference data that others can use.

Borewell water where I am is somewhere over 200 ppm. Because the water table is relatively high and gets refreshed often. That's hard but manageable. Not ideal but if you use more detergent the builders in the detergent (if it's a from a branded company) will soften the water

If the water does not arrive in time it throws a water inlet error. This is on machines that have a timer that expires after a certain time period set by the manufacturer. Then you have to reset the machine and let it continue. This is a PITA. Older machines did not have this timer and waited.

I don't see how the pump can burn out. Because it's not used. The pump is for emptying the washer or recirculating like in models with jet spray or water tower. Not filling.

All good points and i might agree with most.

I am just pointing out that for a regular daily wash, all one needs is a robust and simple washing machine that the maid or the lady of the house can abuse. The more toys in the machine, more chances of it needing a service.

Regarding what i do for my fish tanks, let me hunt and update the fish tank thread without spamming this thread with irrelevant information.

MaSh

 

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So why all this fuss about having a heater in the top loader? It's because enzymes like body temperature water



That's an enzyme like protease that goes after protein stains, think blood or other bodily fluids. Some years ago there was a guy asking about removing blood stains from bedsheets and wanted to know the best machine for this job. I did not know at the time that the detergent enzymes, water hardness and water temperature were as important. People look at the machine and think wash action alone is what does the cleaning. It's important but it can be greatly assisted if other parameters are also in place.



Lipase goes after fatty stains, think of anything oily like food or human sebum



Amylase goes after starches. Looks like it's most active around 45 degrees.

There are others but those three are the most common you will find in bio detergents like Surf & Ariel. The way to tell if the detergent has enzymes is they will warn you not to use it with clothes made from natural fibres like wool or silk because the enzymes will eat the fibres and you will get holes. So you have to use other detergents to wash wool like Ezee or any other detergent that is known not to use enzymes. If it's cheap it most likely does not contain any. Do test though.

The best temperature to wash clothes is between 35-40 degrees C. Before enzymes appeared in the 80s onwards, 60 degrees was needed so enzymes brought about a savings of energy for washing.

Now I hear that India receives 300 days of sun so there is no need for a heater as the water in the overhead storage tank already gets heated naturally by the sun. True. if you live in a place that gets 300 days of sun. But in Bangalore, I get four months like that only and the rest is overcast. The temperature of my tap water these days is closer to 30. But for the rest of the year is closer to 20. It also matters what time of day you do the laundry. Towards the end of the afternoon yeah the water has been heated up. What if you want your laundry ready to go out in the morning? Sun did not have time to heat your tank up now, did it?

Wash action in a top loader is not as good as in a front loader so if you give it the right temperature water you will get the best stain cleaning possible. Also, note how activity increases towards forty degrees and then decreases. This means enzymes are active at lower temperatures but need a longer wash cycle to get the job done.

The general rule of thumb here even though it might not be apparent in the graphs is for every six degrees rise you increase enzyme activity by an order of magnitude. Stain cleaning at 32 degrees will be much better than at 20 degrees. Another point I think matters is slow heating of the water to 40 is better than throwing already warm at the clothes. The enzymes get a chance to slowly activate and have more time to work. I'm making the argument for internal heaters in washing machines that slowly heat the water over hot fill ones that use a hot water attachment. Take a hot wash. with an internal heater, it takes a good twenty minutes to get to sixty degrees. In this time they will have done their job and by the time the water gets hot, it's ok if they are done. But if you put hot water from your geezer then it will deactivate the enzymes as they will come in contact with hot water and be killed off. They won't do any cleaning and whatever cleaning happens will be due to hot temperature water. That is fine for starches and fats but won't work so well with certain stains like blood. In this case, the protein stain will get set into the fabric. Not what you want.

 

[Kaleen Bhaiya]

So I did my test on water hardness and the difference between both corporation water and borewell water is not huge. No surprising, because I could see white scales on my buckets, utensils when water dries out and Calcium/Magnesium salts are left behind with corporation water.

With the AQUASOL, for borewell it was 575ppm. Let's approximate to 600ppm.
For corporation water, it was 525 ppm. The corporation is definitely making a fool out of people by giving the same water as borewell water.

I followed the steps mentioned in the kit and it was dated 10/12/2022. So pretty recent one but definitely not for 1000ppm scale.
I could not do with detergent dissolved as I didn't have one.

The reason why I was pushing for using corporation water was it has much much greater pressure that what my borewell gives. I still think FL should be able to manage the pressure from borewell but it's a hit or a miss.

The biggest thing is cost and how effective will these add-ons be, cost-wise and maintenance wise. Given the constraint, I am also looking for an RO system for drinking as I don't want my body to be filled with salts.
My kitchen is where the washing machine will reside. Given the space and cost-constraints, I cannot have both filters/softners. Are there other methods aprt from ion-exchange from KENT which will improve the softness? Having both will make a total mess. Also, I will be relying on the kitchen tap for my inlet. I don't have any inlet/outlet as showed in the review videos in YT.

Will using detergent reduce the hardness of the water? Any other means to reduce scaling? By how much do you think detergent would reduce hardness if used?

How are you managing laundry currently? hand wash or someone is doing it for you

Managing at my aunt. They have 24x7 corporation water and its SWEET water. I wonder this partiality from corporation for not giving soft water towards apartments :x

Spider failure is cheaper to fix on a Sammy with its unsealed tub than getting a new machine, isn't it?

You sure Samsung doesn't go for a sealed drum? If they are still continuing with unsealed tub then this could be a good option. The reason for clinging on to IFB is 10 years of assured part availability. With Samsung I don't know the part will be available or not.

How did your friend maintain the machine?

I am pretty sure he didn't. But then I don't know how he used his machine.

What about your past experience with an IFB FL ? Didn't know you even had one. Questions you asked when you got your LG FL made me think you were a first time FL user.

The relatives who you thought I was getting the machine for an IFB FL as a gift. They had lot of issues regarding service and the machine so much so that my aunt swore to never get an IFB is her life. Things mucst have been bad but then at that time I am not sure which water they used. Well water or corporation water. This was in 2010.

It's got a light inside and a spirit level to help with levelling. It's got wheels so you don't need a trolley.

Where did you see this? I was thinking of getting a leveller as I have a feeling that my kitchen floor is unlevelled.

I do hope the rinse mode has the facility to increase the frequency rather than the time. Maybe that 5 mins in the video was indicating as the frequency and we are mistaking it for time duration. A manual will surely help.

To clean the sample tubes use distilled water or Aquafina. Get a couple of 1L bottles. Those will be low ppm and it's important to be able to properly clean the sample tubes when testing different samples as otherwise, your high ppm tap water will contaminate the result.

Yup, did that.
Are those dispenser trays non-removable? What If I have to clean it from the gunk it forms over time?

Are you sure you need a softener? Which city are you in?

Currently stay in Nagpur, Central India. My area can be called a Rurban area as it's sprawling thanks to IT companies locating nearby.

 

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With the AQUASOL, for borewell it was 575ppm. Let's approximate to 600ppm.
For corporation water, it was 525 ppm. The corporation is definitely making a fool out of people by giving the same water as borewell water.

Noted. We will try to get you to target 100 ppm or more

I followed the steps mentioned in the kit and it was dated 10/12/2022. So pretty recent one but definitely not for 1000ppm scale.
I could not do with detergent dissolved as I didn't have one.

Then get some FL & TL detergent. Whatever it is you use. 1kg or less is enough. Stick to the MNC's though.

Why do you say not for 1000 ppm? How much is the upper limit ppm for that kit then?

Look for the code AE241 on your box. Is it there?

The reason why I was pushing for using corporation water was it has much much greater pressure that what my borewell gives. I still think FL should be able to manage the pressure from borewell but it's a hit or a miss.

How long in time does it take for your borewell water to fill a 20 litre bucket? Measure it.

Then you get @lockhrt999 to close his tap by half or more and fill a similar size bucket in the same time. He then tries it with his machine and sees if it throws an error.

The biggest thing is cost and how effective will these add-ons be, cost-wise and maintenance wise. Given the constraint, I am also looking for an RO system for drinking as I don't want my body to be filled with salts.

Why? Ca & Mg salts are good for bones. Your dentist will complain if ever you need a tooth extraction because your teeth will not be coming out easily. But if you had soft water it would be like plucking flowers. Having said that there could be other impurities in there so UV is a good idea. Those RO units are really bulky compared to a simple Aquaguard I use.

Why don't you look at bottled water suppliers that service offices? That bottle won't have to be stored in the kitchen.

My kitchen is where the washing machine will reside. Given the space and cost-constraints, I cannot have both filters/softners. Are there other methods aprt from ion-exchange from KENT which will improve the softness? Having both will make a total mess. Also, I will be relying on the kitchen tap for my inlet. I don't have any inlet/outlet as showed in the review videos in YT.

Detergent. That will bring down hardness. So get those tests done and let's see how much it improves things.

Then in addition there is a possibility to use additives. The catch is the additive needs to dissolve in the water BEFORE the detergent. So the detergent does not beat it to the hard water ions. You would add the additive let the machine wash it in and then a few minutes later add the detergent in the dispenser and then use a jug of water to push it into the machine.

The problem with additives is you wash in soft water but rinsing is done in hard water. I'm yet to understand how good hard water, that too colder hard water is at rinsing. Are more rinses required because hard water can't hold as much detergent as soft water. If you wash at a warmer temperature the water will contain more detergent than water at the same temperature as the borewell water.

So just as the wash cycle ends and the spin cycle begins you will have to add the additive again into the drawer so it can be used during the rinse cycle to soften the rinse water. You will also have to put additive in the fabric softener compartment so the last rinse will be done in soft water. The additive will have to be mixed in water first and stored that way and you put a measured amount. This is going to require more testing with the Aquasol as to concentrations of additive to add etc. as it will be working without any detergent in the rinse phase.

This routine you have to follow for EVERY wash. Do you see how this can get old quickly?

Otherwise, if you rinse your clothes in plain borewell water they will become stiff 4-5 washes later due to mineral buildup. Know what you will do next? use fabric softener. This I think is the main reason people use it. They need the clothes to be softened more than the perfume because their clothes are washed in hard water. The next problem is your machine will be getting scaled big time with that 600ppm water (!) during the rinse phase. My formula for descaling was once a month if water is 300 ppm, you will have to descale every couple of weeks at 600 ppm. Rinse cycles are shorter so maybe that can be reduced to once a month.


But if you use the Kent softener, both washing and rinsing are done in the same soft water. You don't get mineral buildup in your clothes in the rinse phase and they won't get stiff. Your machine will not get much scale. Less babying.

Does this softener provide enough water for a top loader washing machine which needs 150 litres in two hours?

You need to understand when you go with borewell water you're bypassing the utility company. YOU are the water supply company now

Will using detergent reduce the hardness of the water? Any other means to reduce scaling? By how much do you think detergent would reduce hardness if used?

You have to measure that following the instructions I posted above. And yes branded detergents contain builders to soften water. By how much we will only know when you test with 1 scoop and then 2 scoops with your a) borewell water b) corporation water if desired

Managing at my aunt. They have 24x7 corporation water and its SWEET water. I wonder this partiality from corporation for not giving soft water towards apartments :x

How much was her water's ppm? Maybe she lives in an older part of the town and your apartments came up later. Check the thickness of her walls and compare them with the walls in your apartment. If yours are half as thick then your apartment is a more recent construction.

You sure Samsung doesn't go for a sealed drum?

Yes

Where did you see this? I was thinking of getting a leveller as I have a feeling that my kitchen floor is unlevelled.

Bigger Panasonic top loaders abroad have them too. Saw it on that Pinoy guy's review. Has to be level or you will have trouble with spins. Watch this brilliantly explained video to understand more.

I do hope the rinse mode has the facility to increase the frequency rather than the time. Maybe that 5 mins in the video was indicating as the frequency and we are mistaking it for time duration. A manual will surely help.

No frequency just duration. Check the specs and look under the Wash Program Options header

Rinse Time Selection (mins) 1 - 5 is what it says. Not times.

You will have to run an additional cycle to get a second rinse. The thing is IFB has no Rinse & Spin program so I'm wondering how you do it.

Are those dispenser trays non-removable? What If I have to clean it from the gunk it forms over time?

They are all removable for the reasons you said.

Regarding what i do for my fish tanks, let me hunt and update the fish tank thread without spamming this thread with irrelevant information.

Just want to know what your hardness ppm is if you measured it

 

[Kaleen Bhaiya]

Look for the code AE241 on your box. Is it there?

AE221.
Are my readings screwed since the kit I bought is for 5-100 or 25-500 ppm?

 

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AE221.
Are my readings screwed since the kit I bought is for 5-100 or 25-500 ppm?

Ah, that is what I linked to first then changed it soon after to go for a wider range when I realised you would be using borewell water. I guess you must have added it to the cart.

Amazon.in

That's the one I wanted you to get.

Your water is above 500 ppm that we know. But how much higher isn't known. The dry season has only begun it's possible the borewell water could get harder in a couple of months and then reduce as the rains start. Important to know the upper limit.

Why don't you get AE241. That way you will have both range and precision with the two kits.

You can use the one you have for detergent tests as it's more precise.

Here is a ppm test video before and after regeneration. Now, he too has bought the same kit as you with max 500 ppm but blows past that and gets to 700 ppm. After regeneration, he gets 250 ppm. The max this softener can reduce is 500 ppm. So his 250 figure is correct. which means his real hardness was 750 and not 700. If ppm is higher i think error might be more.

The biggest thing is cost and how effective will these add-ons be, cost-wise and maintenance wise. Given the constraint, I am also looking for an RO system for drinking as I don't want my body to be filled with salts.
My kitchen is where the washing machine will reside. Given the space and cost-constraints, I cannot have both filters/softners. Are there other methods aprt from ion-exchange from KENT which will improve the softness? Having both will make a total mess. Also, I will be relying on the kitchen tap for my inlet. I don't have any inlet/outlet as showed in the review videos in YT.

Given the high ppm of even your corporation water, any RO system filter membrane is going to get scaled and require replacement in half the time.

Typically what is done is you feed the water from the softener to the RO to prolong its filter life.

I was wondering whether an RO system alone could also handle laundry but it wastes a crazy amount of water. 10-50% more for every litre. Nor could it handle the flow rate required. In comparison, a water softener wastes just 2-4% more. And yeah the hard water will kill your RO filter faster since now you will be using MORE high ppm water.

Figure out the space constraints first. The Kent Softener videos I posted earlier are for the Rs.12k Bathroom unit. That one is bigger.

This is the Rs.5k Washing machine softener. Much smaller isn't it? he also got just one tap that feeds the unit. Same dinky size LG as yours.

Cost is secondary. Depending on your use the resin will need to be replaced every 1-2 years at a cost of Rs.1,500. It's only 2 Litres amount.

Salt is a recurring cost. And that service for backwashing and removing clogging though no one has mentioned this in reviews. Clogging happens with bigger units where the salt becomes hard and then blocks any openings and the brine does not get to the resin. With this small unit if that happens you just need to remove the top part and give it a good wash. No biggie.

What helps is if you use low ppm water to dissolve the salt that way fewer impurities get into the resin for the regeneration process. That will extend the life of the resin.

 

[Kaleen Bhaiya]

How about using washing soda to make the water more suitable for the detergents?

 

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Washing soda is a softener but it's a precipitating softener so it will reduce hardness the downside is it increases pH and needs to be rinsed off. You will also need quite a lot of it and it will cause scaling. Detergents contain some washing soda already. Borax is in the same category but requires a higher wash temperature to be effective.

 

[Kaleen Bhaiya]

Washing soda is a softener but it's a precipitating softener so it will reduce hardness the downside is it increases pH and needs to be rinsed off. You will also need quite a lot of it and it will cause scaling. Detergents contain some washing soda already. Borax is in the same category but requires a higher wash temperature to be effective.

Then how about using white vinegar to balance out the pH.
Scaling can be taken care off by Scalgon, right?