Well, what else can we expect when some of us are willing to pay even 500 for a litre.
Car & Bike India: Petrol and Diesel Discussion Thread
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Elessar
Contributor
I would think two reasons (among others) prevented them from lowering the prices:
1. Lower revenue due to the multiple lockdowns.
2. To pay for the free vaccines and the extra defense spending for the emergency purchases after the Ladakh confrontation.
So if the funds are short what's the need of multi thousand crore Central Vista project amid a pandemic?
Guys, I suggest you to get solar right now. You can't rely on govt for your energy needs. I have been following solar from many years. And best time to buy solar was 2 years ago. Prices have been rising since then.
Adani has captured most of the consumer solar market. It's becoming a monopoly in solar. We had so many companies competing in the solar market 3 years ago. Adani was unheard of back then. Now it's adani everywhere I see. It all made sense when I saw govt banning solar related imports a few months ago.
Prices are already up by 10% compared to 2 years ago. With no real competition, I think they will go even higher. Secondly, with EVs becoming more mainstream, electrification of railway and city buses cabs, our electricity needs will easily rise by 10 folds in next 10 years. I don't know how govt is going is fulfil that. With scarcity, electricity rates will go up and let me remind you we are already paying one of most expensive rates today.
If you get solar today, you'll at least get some subsidy. These power companies will lobby hard to discontinue subsidies, they are going to make it hard for consumers to get personal solar. This is already happening in the US.
A 60 sq ft terrace can generate 1KW of power. A normal indian house (without AC) can easily get by with 2KW on-grid solar. Still if you can, go for maximum 7.5KW (max limit of normal power meter). It'll cost you between 2.5 to 4 lacs. I suggest for additional capacity because it'll cover your future needs. it'll cook you food, charge your EV, cool/warm your house for next 50 years. Even if you don't have heavy appliances right now, your power company will pay you for the extra electricity you make. Do get it even if you have to take a loan for it. It'll break even in a few years and then it's pure profit for 50 years. You don't have to be a tree hugger or climate activist. Consider it as an investment like mutual funds. Or buying MRF at 100 rupee.
If you live in a society, call on them, pay to reserve your space on terrace like how you reserve car parkings. You can build solar 10 feet high up so it won't block terrace for other activities. Surely there may not be enough space for everyone but definitely there's plenty of space for first movers.
Adani has captured most of the consumer solar market. It's becoming a monopoly in solar. We had so many companies competing in the solar market 3 years ago. Adani was unheard of back then. Now it's adani everywhere I see. It all made sense when I saw govt banning solar related imports a few months ago.
Prices are already up by 10% compared to 2 years ago. With no real competition, I think they will go even higher. Secondly, with EVs becoming more mainstream, electrification of railway and city buses cabs, our electricity needs will easily rise by 10 folds in next 10 years. I don't know how govt is going is fulfil that. With scarcity, electricity rates will go up and let me remind you we are already paying one of most expensive rates today.
If you get solar today, you'll at least get some subsidy. These power companies will lobby hard to discontinue subsidies, they are going to make it hard for consumers to get personal solar. This is already happening in the US.
A 60 sq ft terrace can generate 1KW of power. A normal indian house (without AC) can easily get by with 2KW on-grid solar. Still if you can, go for maximum 7.5KW (max limit of normal power meter). It'll cost you between 2.5 to 4 lacs. I suggest for additional capacity because it'll cover your future needs. it'll cook you food, charge your EV, cool/warm your house for next 50 years. Even if you don't have heavy appliances right now, your power company will pay you for the extra electricity you make. Do get it even if you have to take a loan for it. It'll break even in a few years and then it's pure profit for 50 years. You don't have to be a tree hugger or climate activist. Consider it as an investment like mutual funds. Or buying MRF at 100 rupee.
If you live in a society, call on them, pay to reserve your space on terrace like how you reserve car parkings. You can build solar 10 feet high up so it won't block terrace for other activities. Surely there may not be enough space for everyone but definitely there's plenty of space for first movers.
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Mr.J
Herald
These reasons don't work. You know why?
Our country's fuel prices have been going up for a long time now.
Petrol, diesel prices at an all-time high, Twitterati reveal hilarious ways to travel in India now
The escalating petrol prices touched fresh record levels in Delhi and Mumbai on Tuesday, and Netizens are not happy with the hike. Some tried to deal with it by adding a dash of sarcasm and humour.
indianexpress.com
Above news is from 2018. Long before Ladakh. Before even supreme leader's meeting with Winnie the pooh.
As for global market, after reaching all time high (~$150) in 2008 and subsequent volatility, crude oil prices has been downward trend since 2014. In fact it didn't cross $80 until recently.
Crude Oil - Price - Chart - Historical Data - News
Crude Oil decreased 2.32 USD/BBL or 3.24% since the beginning of 2024, according to trading on a contract for difference (CFD) that tracks the benchmark market for this commodity. Crude Oil - values, historical data, forecasts and news - updated on November of 2024.
tradingeconomics.com
So yeah, the excuses don't hold up when one puts even slightest thought into understanding them.
Elessar
Contributor
Multi thousand crore is not being spent in one go. It is a multi year plan. The contracts awarded till now are not "multi' thousand crore. Moreover current annual budget for this is miniscule compared to Vaccines and covid related spend e.g. PMGKY. Even if they were to stop the project, it won't help the gas prices significantly.
Having said that, I believe they could have saved wherever possible and this could have been delayed for a more suitable occasion. Do note I'm as frustrated as anyone with the high prices. I was trying to figure out why prices are not coming down and I came up with the conclusions as in the earlier post.
Actually he is going to run into losses of 5 Billion USD because of Solar and he was thinking of competing with Elon in Solar. Now since there are a lot of International players and it is not easy to compete them so the only way to recuperate money is by targeting India.
Check this - https://theprint.in/economy/the-rea...s-35000-cr-for-states-zero-for-centre/655409/
Plus there is a lot of funding coming from UK and WHO to India for COVID, be it testing kits or Vaccine. I always wonder what was the problem of using it as Astrazeca and changing the name to Covishield.
Why is it that they are hesitating to put everything under GST. Once it comes under GST, it will be a lot cheaper. We are paying Income Taxes, then High Cooking Oil prices and inflated price for Diesel and Petrol. In Australia - Petrol price as per INR is 82.These reasons don't work. You know why?
Our country's fuel prices have been going up for a long time now.
Petrol, diesel prices at an all-time high, Twitterati reveal hilarious ways to travel in India now
The escalating petrol prices touched fresh record levels in Delhi and Mumbai on Tuesday, and Netizens are not happy with the hike. Some tried to deal with it by adding a dash of sarcasm and humour.
Above news is from 2018. Long before Ladakh. Before even supreme leader's meeting with Winnie the pooh.
As for global market, after reaching all time high (~$150) in 2008 and subsequent volatility, crude oil prices has been downward trend since 2014. In fact it didn't cross $80 until recently.
Crude Oil - Price - Chart - Historical Data - News
Crude Oil decreased 2.32 USD/BBL or 3.24% since the beginning of 2024, according to trading on a contract for difference (CFD) that tracks the benchmark market for this commodity. Crude Oil - values, historical data, forecasts and news - updated on November of 2024.
So yeah, the excuses don't hold up when one puts even slightest thought into understanding them.
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As @lockhrt999 mentioned, solar is a very good plan, considering the shift to EV and electricity as primary energy source these days.
However as a consequence, govts. will try to tax electricity oriented sources more, to offset huge tax loses from that of reduced fossil fuel sales. At last huge govts. need tons of monies merely to exist.
Is there a possibility that battery costs can turn out to be hefty in future ? Will that impact shift to solar, because solar power need battery back up ?
Wondering how batteries will be recycled, which is nasty waste to manage and end up with more complications.
However as a consequence, govts. will try to tax electricity oriented sources more, to offset huge tax loses from that of reduced fossil fuel sales. At last huge govts. need tons of monies merely to exist.
Is there a possibility that battery costs can turn out to be hefty in future ? Will that impact shift to solar, because solar power need battery back up ?
Wondering how batteries will be recycled, which is nasty waste to manage and end up with more complications.
Mr.J
Herald
If you want to listen to rumours or critics (and that's what we have to rely on because numbers are fudged by the government, so either listen to critics who bother to check if the numbers make sense or listen to rumours) then government has screwed up the economy and in turn the cash flow. That's why they're trying to get money from any avenue possible.
There's a saying in my language, you can pretend to be anything but you can't masquerade as rich. That mask won't last long.
letmein
Guide
What makes you think so? Right now highest GST slab rate is 28%, they'll simply create a new 100% or something slab for petrol.
Govt didn't spend any money during the development of vaccine. It's been debunked already. Please don't believe in lies. And most of the vaccination is paid. Only like 10% was given free.
Batteries are optional in on-grid system. You can have normal inverter battery system when power goes off. Without batteries you can't use solar if power goes down in your area. If you live in area where there are no power outages then don't get batteries.
If you get solar, it'll be on-grid. Meaning you use power from power company when Sun isn't shining. Your light meter increases units. When Sun is shining, you are using solar and remaining left over energy is sold back power company. Your light meter decreases units. If you end up with negative light meter reading then it'll be power company that pays you.
Batteries are optional in on-grid system. You can have normal inverter battery system when power goes off. Without batteries you can't use solar if power goes down in your area. If you live in area where there are no power outages then don't get batteries.
Right, GST won't change anything. Other countries have one uniform GST rate whether you buy mobile or human slave. In our country, it's a mess. It's messier than previous VAT that it replaced. And 28% isn't highest mate. You aren't considering cess. The actual GST rate on some items can go much higher.
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Elessar
Contributor
I was talking about reasons why the pricing is not coming down now in 2020 & 2021.
And the article you quoted just mentions that the prices were high in 2018. It does not provide any insight on why the price was high then or why it should come down now.
Thanks for this. Very interesting. I see a general upward trend from 2016 to end of 2018 and again a downward trend after that with a recent spike to 80+. Would explain the high prices in 2018 in India but not why it was at an all time high.
I have tried to form my own opinion based on available data and news reports. Covid related expenses were bound to mess up the economy, with the added expenses from emergency defense purchases proving to be a double whammy. Add to this the oil bond payments which are due starting this fiscal. We did enjoy the lower prices in the 2000s when global prices were at an all time high - That is coming back to haunt us now. It is a zero sum game after all. The prices are not likely to come down any time soon.
Kaleen Bhaiya
Herald
At the current rates we are way beyond the prices needed to pay for the bonds. A careful analysis of BE of budget shows we would have a debt of ₹1. That the prices continue to rise means we are collecting way more than what was the "stated objective."
You can refer to Dhruv Rathi video about the same. Keeping political opinion on one side and analysing the facts would help in greater understanding of how the govt is taking the people for a ride in the name of bonds.
Mr.J
Herald
What do you mean we 'enjoyed the lower prices in the 2000s when global prices were at an all time high'? When did we?
In 2006?
https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...l-price-hike/articleshow/1623711.cms?from=mdr
Rising petrol prices fuel blame game, consumers pay dearly for politics of oil
Left and all other political parties come out for the protest against the petrol and diesel price hike in India, demanding rollback of prices. But unless the parties move towards the consensus on tax reforms, their protest will go in vague.
2008?
https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...-price-hike-on-friday/articleshow/2784642.cms
BBC NEWS | South Asia | India truckers strike over fuel
news.bbc.co.uk
2009?
https://www.indiatoday.in/news/photo/strikes-paralyse-nation-361318-2009-04-23/
2010?
https://edition.cnn.com/2010/BUSINESS/07/03/india.petrol.strike/index.html
Life hit as parties protest fuel price hike
The ruling parties in Kerala and Orissa and the opposition parties in Andhra staged protests against the steep hike.
Fuel prices in India rose along with global prices but didn't fall accordingly.
deusExMachina
Explorer
Semi centralized distribution of electricity to power cars etc would be more efficient than using ICE. While the EV use would increase, I guess the ICE car population would come down. Maybe that will free up fuel to burn to produce electircity?
Compared to what? I don't think electricity is expensive here compared to some place like Germany where they switched mostly to 'renewables'
Yes, I heard about it and thought it was weird. Instead of encouraging panels, they were taxing them extra or something. On that note, how do you actually apply for the subsidy? there is some Kerala government scheme where they'd install panels on your roof and take the power, while giving some of it to you. AFAIK it hasn't yet materialized, might take several years/decades.
hehe, this assumes that you will stay in one place that long and have a place of your own. As a renter, I don't bother much with solar panels. I'd like to use them (as well as rain water harvesting) but for the time being, it's not practical.
Is that a thing? I thought they wouldn't let you put anything on the shared roof. I know of people complaining about small dth dishes on the roof.
Also, you left out one major advantage of having solar power. We can stop relying on the stupid grid that loses power 7 times a day.
Would they pay you the same amount per unit when drawing power from your panels? I can see them make an argument of having to maintain the infrastructure etc. and it's not like you have multiple power companies to choose from here.
Yeah, I heard that the real tragedy of the GST slabs is the ambiguity. There isn't a clear distinction on what items go into which slab. So the tax guy can extort money from the seller by arbitrarily pushing items into higher slabs. You can fight it in a court but then you'd spend all your time doing that (possibly in a place far from your business)
Guess that's civics? Anyways, yeah a good opposition is important. The lack of it has the same effect as formation of echo chambers. You need to see the counterpoints, else you'd think all your opinions / decisions are perfect and there's no course correction.
IMO the opposition should counter the government with valid things but at the same time they shouldn't arbitrarily opposite every thing they do. All the time, I see parties in opposition protesting against the same policies they supported while in governement.
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That's right. It would be more efficient being centralized. However, it'll produce more pollution. All these environmental policies are targeted towards end consumers which is why our cars produce so little pollution. Govt and power companies are given free pass when it comes to pollution.
Valid point. However, it could be due to shutting down nuclear power plants in the country. Solar and wind are expensive at national grid level. Rates in Maharashtra go up to Rs. 9 per unit whereas in germany it's around $0.37/unit. But per german capita GDP income is many more times higher than maharashtra so it turns out cheaper for them.
Secondly,
Germany is so rich that it can afford to be stupid.
Most state govt are already handing out subdies from many years. You can apply for them directly at discom but in most cases this is handled by the same solar company who's installing panels & inverters. Upon applying for on-grid solar at discom, they will send some people to your place to check your solar capacity, they will also replace your meter with another (which can run in reverse). If you are maharashtra, you can brave into it here.
It's the job for the owner. You shouldn't even be thinking about it.
That's why societies need to come together and formulate new policies for terrace use like how they currently have some for parking.
It's going to happen more and more in the future. And that's why I'm suggesting to reduce reliance
on govt. Do remember that, on-grid solar also shuts down if there's no power in your area even if sun is shining (unless you are keeping some batteries)Of course not. They pay a little less than lowest slab rate for unit. So, it'd be around 1 to 2 rs. in Maharashtra. I think they are paying back right now only as encouragement. This rate is extremely expensive for them. If too many people start selling back electricity then discom would stop purchasing altogether.
Another point, in old VAT days, I needed to file 2 return every 6 months and that was it. Now, it's 3-4 returns every month. That's too much.
Solar itself may be cheaper. But you have to consider another thing, you can't build one solar plant be done with it. You always invest into building two. If a solar plant is adding 20 MW capacity then you will need another 20 MW plant which is burning coal, gas or uranium to supply power for rest the day. Sun shines only 30-50% of the day and someday it's completely gone. If you consider all this, solar becomes an expensive option.
India as a developing country doesn't have a lot of resources to spend twice for required capacity.
deusExMachina
Explorer
Solar has other issues too with toxic byproducts during production and as they breakdown. What you said holds good for any renewable though. They can't give steady power all the time and would need some mechanism to balance it out. This could be batteries but I've heard some chatter about storing the energy in water. when the sun shines, you pump water up an elevated place and then let it power a hydroelectric plant when the panels produce less power.
Hydroelectric dams are the best batteries we got. But these are not green. Every hydroelectric dam is built by submerging a huge forest causing net positive carbon emission.
Secondly, you are still investing into two plants like I said before. To complement 20 MW solar capacity on the grid, you will need additional 40 MW solar plant to charge the batteries.
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