Market Feedback Issue with member uziel

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Renegade said:
Let me repeat so you can understand it this time. Withholding information cannot be punished-for since we believe in caveat emptor. This is a general statement for all deals on TE. Withholding does not amount to actively concealing.
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What about lying on purpose. Is that in the domain of withholding information too. The seller in this case did do that, when he was asked about the FM function. Or we give no relevance to a review posted by the seller for the same product, prior to the deal/exchange -- on a portal external to TE.

So the chain of flow would be:

1. Seller reviewed product on portal X.

2. Put up sale here.

3. Questioned about specifications which were listed in (1).

4. Seller lied about (3).

5. Product sold.

Between sequence 3-4 : is it lying or withholding information with respect to (1)..?
 
I doubt that...in ebay also..if you get the same product as described then u more or less have to pay for it.

H2O said:
I can't say much about this, but if you think you want to buy something nexst time spend 100-200 bucks extra and take it to Ebay, you can always file a dispute get your money back.
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@ Renegade

And how does it matter if the deal took place in India? What are you trying to imply here?
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when you referred to caveat emptor , I really did not understand it . I still do not

understand it completely even after reading the Wiki article several times . I just

understand that you referred to the law principle followed in the US & European

countries and I am referring to simple cheating case in India :(

Anyway , let me thank you for your decision(s) :)
 
asingh said:
What about lying on purpose. Is that in the domain of withholding information too. The seller in this case did do that, when he was asked about the FM function. Or we give no relevance to a review posted by the seller for the same product, prior to the deal/exchange -- on a portal external to TE.

So the chain of flow would be:

1. Seller reviewed product on portal X.

2. Put up sale here.

3. Questioned about specifications which were listed in (1).

4. Seller lied about (3).

5. Product sold.

Between sequence 3-4 : is it lying or withholding information with respect to (1)..?
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Are you trying to make a point or just a post? I don't quite understand the purpose behind your post. Specially after it has been agreed that the seller will be blacklisted if he cant defend himself.

Are you arguing with yourself whether the seller lied about the product before the sale was concluded?

@seshu - it simply means that it is upto you to probe the seller and get the correct information. If the seller is misleading you by giving you link to the wrong specs then that is actively concealing/cheating. Caveat emptor is a general guideline on TE, not a government enforced law of the state. Country of origin does not matter. If you are not careful enough to inquire about the product condition then you cant claim that the buyer cheated you.

Having said that, the atmosphere on TE is built on trust. If a seller is listing a damaged product and not mentioning it in the sale then that also comes under fraud. Whether you inquired about it or not. Though this cannot be ensured seamlessly. Lots of grey areas.

Even raising the price of the sale after listing it should come under fraud. We are debating it.
 
^^

Of course am not arguing with my self. Was just questioning you. Via caveat emptor -- it seems that only information was withheld, and the seller did not lie.

Of course we will wait for the seller to mention his side of the bargain.
 
asingh said:
Via caveat emptor -- it seems that only information was withheld, and the seller did not lie.
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Lying is equivalent of actively concealing. Thats what he has to defend. :P
 
Thanks @ Renegade

1 [thread=161666]deal post[/thread] says that the product condition is brand new and it is lying idle (!)

whereas the reviews elsewhere by himself say that its an incapable product !!!
2 the details link posted by the seller directs to avermedia site &

it was misleading as product for sale is OEM version

3 the product is not working with best known softwares whereas the deal post says

that it Works very well with Dell systems as they have customized it for their system

4 He also provided incorrect information when I inquired about the product thru PMs

I feel that above points are enough to prove that its a clear cheating ...
 
It's already been couple of days since the topic was started and still the seller didn't turn up to reply even through he is following this thread regularly.

still how many days the seller has, to defend?
 
vercetti said:
I doubt that...in ebay also..if you get the same product as described then u more or less have to pay for it.
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Nope. Personal Experience. If its not what was written in the description file a dispute. Then you will see how the seller will come to his knees. Ebay won't pay him and if he does not respond in 2 weeks they will refund the money to you.

Anyway, I am getting kind of apprehensive about the way TE is handling these situations. Shouldn't we be using orkut/facebook this person putting up his picture ? What's the point of "Blacklisting" him, its not as if he has to wear a paper bag on his head and move around.

I think Renegade, is trying to make a run for it so that TE does not get blamed for this. I think the buyer has ample amount of evidence that he was conned/cheated (Aren't we against this sort of stuff ?) I remember when some shop sold somebody a fake graphics card everybody was ready to fight.

Maybe someone from the same city can pay him a visit ? I'm wondering if the buyer should actually file an FIR he has the evidence.

Consider this,

When you go to buy a car you expect it to have an engine you find out whether it has a Cd-Player or power windows, but if you find out after you buy it that it did not have an engine then its a clear case of fraud.
 
H2O said:
I think Renegade, is trying to make a run for it so that TE does not get blamed for this.
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I dont need to make a run for anything. How does the blame shift to TE if a buyer gets cheated?
 
There is no grounds to file an FIR. He gave what he promished. He gave abstract and wrong answers and that's not a ground for FIR:)

Also, the car example. The seller has given what he promished. Its like the seller sold his car saying that he has not checked the car since the last 2 yrs and the buyer bought the car without checking...

Also, buyer should have made a return policy of some sort. But since this was not in place seller has no obligation

H2O said:
Maybe someone from the same city can pay him a visit ? I'm wondering if the buyer should actually file an FIR he has the evidence.

Consider this,

When you go to buy a car you expect it to have an engine you find out whether it has a Cd-Player or power windows, but if you find out after you buy it that it did not have an engine then its a clear case of fraud.
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:S:huh:Why would u think that? He has already agreed to blacklist the seller...what else can be done?

H2O said:
I think Renegade, is trying to make a run for it so that TE does not get blamed for this.
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H2O Saar, when was the last time a newspaper was blamed about misleading/fraudulent classifieds. TE is just a platform.

Please do read the market rules before commenting :)
The Market section on TechEnclave is provided for the convenience of its members to off load any 'excess baggage' they have.

TechEnclave does not provide any express warranty on the items sold nor does it claim responsibility for trades conducted on the market.
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Trust me, and i have said this before, it's time to close down market for some time at least.

This is more like one-fraud-a-day now. :(

The days of dealing on basis of trust are gone now.

Sorry to say it but seems like most of the new crowd is out to make a quick buck by

- buying stuff cheap and reselling to n00bs/locals

and/or

- overpricing sale items and hoping to snare an ignorant/gullible buyer

and/or

- selling junk/faulty stuff by declaring very little or almost nothing in sale threads and letting buyers assume stuff and playing along.

There were days when we could buy eyes closed just cause so-and-so person was selling something.

It was taken for granted that if coming from that seller, then it's 100% fault-free as they won't sell it in the first place if any issues.

People have gone on to even sending stuff before getting paid as they were sure the buyer will pay- no matter what.

There are those who declare everything about the product and even after doing so, personally recheck with the interested people if they took note of certain things and havent's overlooked any imp facts-

even though they needn't at all-

eg.

- someone lists an ide hdd and gets query, they ask if the buyer wants ide or mistakenly assumed sata.

- PCIe vs AGP

- ready to buy chip asap when they want AM2 actually and seller has explicitly mentioned 939

- No warranty

etc etc

Concealing facts knowingly is no different from lying. :(

Time to shut down the market for sometime imho. :(
 
maybe we should adopt a policy of 3 days guaranty for items sold in warranty or without warranty , so we can avoid wot has happened here and in raheelshadab case.
 
I agree with Bikey , this is getting out of control now. Time to close down market temporarily. :(
 
^Rather than completely closing it down, I'd suggest implementing the older post count rule to gain entry into the market to post sale threads or even make the sale threads visible to them. Spam can still be countered (just employ a bunch of support staff to help keep the sections clean) but not market frauds which happen between the seller and buyer.

Besides, they seem to be taking TE's platform to their advantage - buyer posts his grievances on a similar thread and seller may/may not defend his position, mods ultimately blacklist his ID with all the relevant details. Rinse, wash, repeat! This's what has been happening over a week now. :|
 
One fraud a day does not say much unless you compare that to the number of trades a day. Nevertheless as Aces has mentioned in a separate discussion we probably need to reintroduce the cooling off period of 15-30 days. Post count restriction is not good for the forum as it increases spam.
 
^ The older market was lot lot better where the handful members used to deal with each other as Bikey described. It was so much of a friendly deal and the market then was just meant to give away the surplus stuff at reasonable prices after upgrades etc .

I feel the market section should be an additional platform only for the regular /active or senior members. (according to some criteria). It shouldn't be a reason for people to join TE and spam to get in, if incase a smaller criteria like 30-50 posts is implemented again .
 
Can we have maturity as a condition then? Minimum one yr membership required:)

This would mean the member has a fair idea and prolly would also have seen some trades in TE and experienced some buying/selling via PM before publishing his first sale..
 
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