Selling Stolen Products in Market section


logistopath

Molar Police
Super Mod
How about making this thread useful by making a list of suggestions that can be implemented? Let's change the direction this thread is going, and discuss things.

Proof of purchase should be a must for every sale thread
Good suggestion. We already have the invoice requirement, but we have not been enforcing that. But what about genuine members who have lost proof of purchase? How do we differentiate them? Any suggestions?

I would suggest making some provision to sell costly products only say after you have been a member for 2-3 years or already done few low cost deals with good ratings?
I'm not sure what real benefit that will give. There is no way we can be sure that a person will not cheat, just on the basis of their forum age or the previous transactions. Anyone hell bent on cheating can play the long game, and do some low value transactions easily without issues, and then cheat in a high value transaction. Unless you know the seller or the buyer personally, or you personally know someone who can vouch for the third party, it is always better that you treat any member in the forum, whether a veteran or a newbie, as an internet stranger.

Is it ok if a banned member creates a new username and carry on his activities?
It's not okay. But we don't have any real means to curb this.

There are some notable members in the forum whose primary duty is to buy and sell.
....
Mods should take notice of such members but in case of fraud they can be banned otherwise how to deal with such people I don't know.
A majority of the members are here for the trade section. There's nothing wrong about that. As for banning in case of fraud, that is what we have been doing, but like you said, we can't really help much. We neither collect any member information, nor do we do any sort of member verification (legal reasons, I guess), so anyone who is using the market section, does it on his/her own risk. Do your own due diligence.

If you have to sell in a week's time, without using it, why buy it at first place !! Besides the genuine cases wonder what's the catch with most of them.
No idea. As suggested by the OP, it could be fraudulently obtained merchandise. We have no way to know, other than speculate.

The seller promised sealed pack, pics were provided too , but buyers got open pack. Maybe used ones too.
What's the solution here?

there was an option of registration charges for resellers, it could be started again, also resellers need to pay 5% as charges ?
I am not entirely sure about why it was discontinued (the dealer section, I guess that is what you are taking about). Only some dealers showed interest to sell here. AFAIR, most of them did that to gain users for their respective websites/forums after which they discontinued listing their stuff here. It would be wonderful to have dealers who can list their stuff here, take orders here, may be provide some special discount to TE members, and also address customer queries and warranty claims here. Unfortunately, I don't see that happening.
 

mk76

Well-Known Member
Adept
My experience on TE have been with a community whose members are knowledgeable, helpful and trustworthy. About the marketplace here, I've even done deals where the seller shipped the item and asked me to validate first and then pay. From what I've noticed mods are quite proactive in highlighting discrepancies in market section .. but humanly those actions can not be exhaustive.

I support to have a zero tolerance policy on having a valid proof of purchase. If not, seller is open to put up a sale post on OLX , ebay etc.

Also these days, have seen a lot of newbies joining just to sell off their items. There has to be some restrictions for them. That way if someone's account is banned and tries to create new one ( which cannot be stopped ) will need some effort to rebuild the reputation.

Edit ( Saw logistopath's reply after posting )
Good suggestion. We already have the invoice requirement, but we have not been enforcing that. But what about genuine members who have lost proof of purchase? How do we differentiate them? Any suggestions?
I guess the reputation can play a role here.
- In case of newbie .. it should be a big no no.
- Whereas for members with decent rating, points and feedback ( some formula based upon those factors ) can be assumed to be a genuine case.

And/Or for such sales do not allow to exchange ratings.
 
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rdst_1

Well-Known Member
Veteran
I support to have a zero tolerance policy on having a valid proof of purchase. If not, seller is open to put up a sale post on OLX , ebay etc.

I am sorry but I don't agree with that. Right from my first deal on this forum a decade ago, with Shripad, I have bought and sold a lot of stuff over here without an invoice both from reputed members and newbies. And for someone who is hell bent on cheating, it won't be too difficult to create a false invoice in today's day and age when digital invoices are the norm.
Also, sometimes one could have bought something from abroad, or it could be a gift, or one could have bought something second hand or the product could be a decade old. So, at least for me, there can't be a zero tolerance policy regarding this. An invoice is definitely preferred and should be available at least for products in which it is being marketed as having warranty, but there can't be a blanket ban on sales without invoice.
Just in my case, I could want to sell my 7 year old laptop or TV over here but I don't have the invoices for them with me now. Does that mean I am selling stolen products. Why should I be punished just because someone else might be a fraudster.

My philosophy regarding this matter comes from this quote - 'Let a hundred guilty be acquitted, but one innocent should not be convicted'.
 

Sumi

Member
Disciple
A member here has sold over 100 products without any bill.
That is a concerning case of tax fraud.
This used to happen in the thousands in erodov forum where people used to sell used items at throw away prices without any proper bills or anything but here in tech enclave it's somewhat refined not like in erodov.
The forum was already dead when I joined there but the marketplace was active and definitely saw things just as you described, hence never went forward to contacting a single dealer. I can see a few familiar sellers here too that were on erodov.
Well without proofs, as the mods say, we all might as well shut up. They are quick to lock threads so that no discussion happens.
I was trying to inform the seller as to why the buyer was banned since he had troubles understanding, the thread is now locked and no information as to how he'll be getting the feedbacks on his account as it's vital for people buying/selling here.
An invoice is definitely preferred and should be available at least for products in which it is being marketed as having warranty
This is important, a person was trying to sell his new 3600 with no invoice which he lost in 2 weeks.
I support to have a zero tolerance policy on having a valid proof of purchase. If not, seller is open to put up a sale post on OLX , ebay etc.
A proof of purchase as stated above should be for products that have warranty, out of warranty products could be given a leeway in rules if it's old enough otherwise there should be a proper reason stated for why there is no invoice.
 

rdst_1

Well-Known Member
Veteran

chetansha

Well-Known Member
Veteran
The guy selling 3600 wasn't selling at 40% discount. He has hence updated invoice. That's why I say mods should apply logic.
 

Sumi

Member
Disciple
I understand but there can't be a blanket ban. It has to be dealt on a case-to-case basis. For example there is another thread where the person who had misplaced his invoice got in touch with the shop he bought it from and arranged a duplicate invoice for the same. https://techenclave.com/community/threads/ryzen-3600-week-old.193889/
I was talking about that particular thread itself. It's good that he got a duplicate invoice to provide legitimacy but there are many others who don't provide invoices for products under warranty and still put information that it's under warranty and such, which for most products require an invoice. I don't know if mods can deal on a case-to-case basis so I'll rather wait for their own response.
 

mk76

Well-Known Member
Adept
I am sorry but I don't agree with that. Right from my first deal on this forum a decade ago, with Shripad, I have bought and sold a lot of stuff over here without an invoice both from reputed members and newbies. And for someone who is hell bent on cheating, it won't be too difficult to create a false invoice in today's day and age when digital invoices are the norm.
Also, sometimes one could have bought something from abroad, or it could be a gift, or one could have bought something second hand or the product could be a decade old. So, at least for me, there can't be a zero tolerance policy regarding this. An invoice is definitely preferred and should be available at least for products in which it is being marketed as having warranty, but there can't be a blanket ban on sales without invoice.
Just in my case, I could want to sell my 7 year old laptop or TV over here but I don't have the invoices for them with me now. Does that mean I am selling stolen products. Why should I be punished just because someone else might be a fraudster.

My philosophy regarding this matter comes from this quote - 'Let a hundred guilty be acquitted, but one innocent should not be convicted'.

Well actually its not a ( kind of ) blanket ban.
The idea to progressively reduce the restrictions as a member becomes trustworthy. My thought process is to have rules in place and be safe rather than having none. And if any rule results in too much inconvenience to multiple members, can be addressed/relaxed by the mods.

My philosophy regarding this matter comes from this quote - 'Let a hundred guilty be acquitted, but one innocent should not be convicted'.
Sorry but I personally find this argument totally impractical. This is what is followed by society in general and those hundred guilty only result in more menace than before. They have zero/diluted fear for law and no sense of remorse. Such that even that one innocent eventually directly/indirectly becomes more vulnerable.
 

dafreaking

Well-Known Member
Adept
I think TE should automatically post a disclaimer on every sale thread something like "buyer beware " and "te is not responsible " and pass the buck this way, in a good way of course

Isn't something like that already there? Like how are the mods accountable for buying/selling.
 

izzner

Well-Known Member
Disciple
I am sorry but I don't agree with that. Right from my first deal on this forum a decade ago, with Shripad, I have bought and sold a lot of stuff over here without an invoice both from reputed members and newbies. And for someone who is hell bent on cheating, it won't be too difficult to create a false invoice in today's day and age when digital invoices are the norm.
Also, sometimes one could have bought something from abroad, or it could be a gift, or one could have bought something second hand or the product could be a decade old. So, at least for me, there can't be a zero tolerance policy regarding this. An invoice is definitely preferred and should be available at least for products in which it is being marketed as having warranty, but there can't be a blanket ban on sales without invoice.
Just in my case, I could want to sell my 7 year old laptop or TV over here but I don't have the invoices for them with me now. Does that mean I am selling stolen products. Why should I be punished just because someone else might be a fraudster.

My philosophy regarding this matter comes from this quote - 'Let a hundred guilty be acquitted, but one innocent should not be convicted'.


Misplacing 1 invoice or maybe 2 or may be 3 or maybe 5 invoices is also fine.. How can you explain not having invoices of 100 items ??
Post automatically merged:

I think TE should automatically post a disclaimer on every sale thread something like "buyer beware " and "te is not responsible " and pass the buck this way, in a good way of course

This is what 90% of Indians do.. the so called "Chalta hai attitude"
 

bssunilreddy

Well-Known Member
Veteran
Misplacing 1 invoice or maybe 2 or may be 3 or maybe 5 invoices is also fine.. How can you explain not having invoices of 100 items ??
Yes truly said awesomely
Not having invoices for 100 items which are being put for sale
Really awesome...
 

izzner

Well-Known Member
Disciple
Isn't something like that already there? Like how are the mods accountable for buying/selling.


The mods should be held accountable coz they suddenly jump in and clean up threads...(@puns )

There have been many instances fellow members try to post in sale threads about issues/deficiencies on the sellers items(like bill missing etc etc). Which actually aids in transparency of the sale and prevent any innocent buyer to fall prey to sellers fraud practice.
There was a FS: Mobile thread posted in this forum where many members highlighted issues ,,,,but a useless forum super mod jumped in to clean up that thread.

If one is selling a 3 year old item.. we can give benefit of doubt abt the seller having misplaced the bill. But not about 100 sealed pack new items... :p :p

Proof of purchase establishes ownership. You cannot sell something which you dont own.
 

ashoka1

Member
Disciple
There is very simple solution of this problem of missing or lost invoice if someone want to follow.Ask seller(if bill is missing)for a affidavit declaring that i am the owner(name and address of seller) of said goods and i have sold/gifted this good to(name of the buyer and address)clearly mentioning sr numbers,model,year of make etc.affidavit should be duly attested by notary and stamped.Rs 10 non judicial stamp paper and rs 30 for notary fees.Notary will not attest without valid id proof and if item is even stolen and buyer has purchased in good faith without knowing it he will not get in any trouble,can file a criminal case against seller,can get compensation upto amount he paid,can reach court for possession of good and get it in most cases.These affidavits are governed by indian oath act and can not be false.This is same type of affidavit we give or take while buying or selling car,bikes etc.A scammer will find hard to get trough this and if gives false info then penalty is severe
regards
 

logistopath

Molar Police
Super Mod
there can't be a blanket ban on sales without invoice
True. We could enforce mandatory proof of purchase for items in warranty, in case the seller claims that warranty period exists.
What about items that are being sold as without warranty, but bought only 2 days/weeks/months ago or got it as gift so no invoice?

The idea to progressively reduce the restrictions as a member becomes trustworthy.
I'm not sure what trustworthy means. It cannot be quantified. A member with 10 positive feedback points can also commit fraud. It is difficult to cover all bases when we are just providing a platform for a buyer and seller to communicate and trade their stuff, and nothing more. Any restriction we make, can be circumvented easily. We have come across so many such instances here in TE. People making dummy sale threads or dummy user ids for exchanging feedback points, etc..
Back when a minimum membership period of 2 months or so was required to gain access to market sections, new members used to either spam, or use some other member to proxy sell their stuff on their behalf. The spam we can tackle. The other part cannot be. Hence a decision was made to reduce these restrictions, since the members who want to sell here will find their way to do so anyway. Now it's two valid posts and at least a day of being a TE member, and access is granted. @Renegade will be changing this to a minimum of 25 valid posts before access to market section from tonight. Let's see what happens.

I think TE should automatically post a disclaimer on every sale thread something like "buyer beware " and "te is not responsible " and pass the buck this way, in a good way of course
That is how it is, and it will be always. It is implicit. :)
The mods should be held accountable coz they suddenly jump in and clean up threads...
LOL.. That will not happen.
Proof of purchase establishes ownership. You cannot sell something which you dont own.
Agreed. As I mentioned earlier, we can make invoice mandatory for stuff being claimed to have remaining warranty. For non-warranty items, I don't have a clue. Anyone can say that the "invoice was lost, so no warranty" or "received as gift, so no invoice" even for pretty new items. Any suggestions to tackle these cases?
 

Julian

om nom nom
Veteran
LOL.. That will not happen.
It's already happened. Multiple times. Seller is a very old member having sold maybe 100s of items. But that doesn't give him a free pass does it? I asked if the hard drive he's selling has an invoice and packaging. Puns deleted that and all other posts directly related to the item being sold claiming O/T. It's all in the other thread.
 

logistopath

Molar Police
Super Mod
It's already happened. Multiple times. Seller is a very old member having sold maybe 100s of items. But that doesn't give him a free pass does it? I asked if the hard drive he's selling has an invoice and packaging. Puns deleted that and all other posts directly related to the item being sold claiming O/T. It's all in the other thread.
I was talking about mods being held accountable for market transactions. That will not happen.
 

dafreaking

Well-Known Member
Adept
The problem is most of us can't self regulate. Yes, asking questions about bills, warranty and the like ARE IMPORTANT. I think it's better if the mods allow that, however it soon turns into a "lol 3070 is coming RIp 2080ti" and other price-policing stuff. It's another damned if you do damned if you don't kind of thing.

I dunno if people who have raised certain issues have gained some kind of super conscience about items not having legit invoices, being stolen, etc or are they salty in missing out on deals and profiting.

Completely GREY no black and white. Some of the same guy's were quite happy to price police in E when it was around.
 

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