The Aam Admi Party

[Party Monger]

Retail FDI is a very important issue.

With almost all important daily needs coming from retail, with FDI you would be handing over the profits of the biggest consumer segment to foreign entities. Trust not being an issue in this day and age, the problem is the huge amounts of profits, extremely low pays and the adverse competitive tactics.

One way would be to have an alternate tax rate for these companies to ensure that the excessive profits are taxed. You dont want these companies talking billions of dollars our of india in profits, that would in the end slowly and surely deprecate rupee's value continuously over time.

These things are not as simple as Mom and pop shops closing down. There are a lot of other adverse effects that must be taken into account. These big companies also "indianize" when they come here, so all the amazing benefits you think you'l get, you probably wont [DOUBLEPOST=1389868418][/DOUBLEPOST]Haha Im sorry but this whole Binny chapter seems to be orchastrated by the BJP. Yogendra Yadav did a brilliant press conference today to tackle it head on. Best line "it seems like Binny was reading a script with all those papers, as if someone had told him the exact words to use as the BJP has been using."

And it does seem true. Its better that these idiots get out now rather than later.

 

[Roxtin]

Intentions of AAP may be good but their actions are little bit anarchist. Like why forgo complete 10 month Electricity rent for those who didn't pay, it will make rest of the people who payed look like fool/idiots.

 

[blr_p]

Retail FDI is a very important issue.

With almost all important daily needs coming from retail, with FDI you would be handing over the profits of the biggest consumer segment to foreign entities. Trust not being an issue in this day and age, the problem is the huge amounts of profits, extremely low pays and the adverse competitive tactics.

This is what creates competitive pricing for us consumers.

One way would be to have an alternate tax rate for these companies to ensure that the excessive profits are taxed. You dont want these companies talking billions of dollars our of india in profits, that would in the end slowly and surely deprecate rupee's value continuously over time.

This is the case in a lot of countries but for some reason taking billion of dollars out of India in profits is an issue. Why ?

if rupee is depreciating then what you are advocating is curbing demand. Make things expensive so we cannot afford to buy.

How much money goes out because of oil ? we import a lot of that. Are we worreid that we're making the arabs richer.

These things are not as simple as Mom and pop shops closing down.

Yes it is, this is about a merchant lobby holding the country ransom.

There are a lot of other adverse effects that must be taken into account. These big companies also "indianize" when they come here, so all the amazing benefits you think you'l get, you probably wont.

It won't happen if what you want these extra taxes get slapped on foreign entities just because they happen to be more successful at it than others. Otherwise everywhere else they've been very successful at bringing prices down Offering vfm.

 

[Party Monger]

This is what creates competitive pricing for us consumers.
Competitive pricing is offered by retailers, and even small shops right now, probably more than what you'd get from a big giant retailer, have you checked? I know shops that give flat 5% off on final bills, or freebies equalling the amount.

This is the case in a lot of countries but for some reason taking billion of dollars out of India in profits is an issue. Why ?
Yes when you take money out of the country, you have to pay them foreign exchange. For something necessary like fuel its okay, for consumer items its a free fall for the rupee. All the majot producers are owned by foreign companies already, now you're basically transferring the whole chain into their hands. Im all for foreign companies, but let them work in sectors that are behind, what do you get by disrupting a working supply chain? Its a serious issue, how many foreign companies do you see holding a major market in USA? Its easy to advocate a free international market when you are at the receiving end. Let big Indian retail companies grow and put branches out side india and then allow foreign companies. Its common sense really.

if rupee is depreciating then what you are advocating is curbing demand. Make things expensive so we cannot afford to buy.
Demand is being met right now. Rates wont free fall if these big retailers come in. I dont know what fantasy you are holding in your head, but the max rate difference will be 2-3%

How much money goes out because of oil ? we import a lot of that. Are we worreid that we're making the arabs richer.
A necessity vs consmer goods that are already available in india. Do you think MAggi noodles can substitute petrol in your car? No? Well apples and oranges my friend.

Yes it is, this is about a merchant lobby holding the country ransom.
LOL there is no merchant lobby. If you had a first hand idea of their working then you wouldnt say this imaginary crap. They are decentralized and unorganized and spread over the country. No chance of a lobby or a cartel.

It won't happen if what you want these extra taxes get slapped on foreign entities just because they happen to be more successful at it than others. Otherwise everywhere else they've been very successful at bringing prices down Offering vfm.
Foreign companies are already charged at a higher rate then normal companies. I seriously suggest you read up before you jump into the debate. I am proposing to make the rate higher as the companies that enter should not be taking obscene amounts out of india. When Indian buys from an india, an indian profits, and then buys something from another indian and then another indian profits and so on. When you buy from a firangi, you give measly wages to a poor indian and the profits go to the shareholders in America/other countries. We all hate china but there are some very good lessons to be learnt from then when it comes to building a robust economy. We dont gain anything by running after the economic fantasy of a free market cause the free market concept used today is flawed. Free market would have suppliers from all over the world, not just one or two developed countries.

You have a very myopic view of things it seems and absolutely zero idea about how taxation rules are bent by these huge retail giants. Bulk tax evasion by bribing the tax officials obscenely, using an army of lawyers to wade through with cheeky tactics, using tax heavens to route transactions to evade huge amounts of taxes. I agree its not all bad, there are benefits to be had, but they are far few and hyped up.

I have given my replies in the quote itself.

 

[letmein]

I don't know why people are complaining about handing over profits over to 'foreign entities'. Indians want to live abroad, study abroad, do business abroad, but god forbid if a foreign company tries to enter the domestic market. If guess if it were up to people like these, we'd still be driving Ambassadors.

 

[Roxtin]

So no one from AAP or belonging to AAP has ever bought anything from a retail chain?

 

[blr_p]

You have a very myopic view of things it seems and absolutely zero idea about how taxation rules are bent by these huge retail giants. Bulk tax evasion by bribing the tax officials obscenely, using an army of lawyers to wade through with cheeky tactics, using tax heavens to route transactions to evade huge amounts of taxes. I agree its not all bad, there are benefits to be had, but they are far few and hyped up.

I have given my replies in the quote itself.

My principal opposition is to this 'clean' business that the AAP claims to represent. What is clean ? it means no corruption.

What is corruption ? its the fuel that runs our democracy. Justice, security, democracy do not come for free.

To make it clean is to revert back to the 70s. Where the state was incredibly overbearing and money was present. Taxation was 90%+. Who pays 90 tax on their earnings. Only those that declare 30% income. So evasion was rampant. But we tossed as much as possible all of this in the last twenty years. Politicians want money for re-election campaigns, then go cut a deal with some moneyed interests. Promise them windfalls and they will bankroll your election platform. This is how it works.

Don't come and shake me down like the days of yore. I had zero problems with so called 2g scam, as it meant cheaper rates but since word got out how much money could be had people got greedy and said the state deserved it instead of private interests. What is the result ? higher mobile rates. What the AAP represents is the same. Higher rates for what could be had for less. Cut down on competition, choice and the result is a captive market where the customers are forced to chase the goods instead of the other way around.

It's the merchant lobby they see their profits dwindling under stiff competition and very deep pockets. That is what they dread the most. They want protectionism.

 

[Party Monger]

My principal opposition is to this 'clean' business that the AAP claims to represent. What is clean ? it means no corruption.

What is corruption ? its the fuel that runs our democracy. Justice, security, democracy do not come for free.

To make it clean is to revert back to the 70s. Where the state was incredibly overbearing and money was present. Taxation was 90%+. Who pays 90 tax on their earnings. Only those that declare 30% income. So evasion was rampant. But we tossed as much as possible all of this in the last twenty years. Politicians want money for re-election campaigns, then go cut a deal with some moneyed interests. Promise them windfalls and they will bankroll your election platform. This is how it works.

Don't come and shake me down like the days of yore. I had zero problems with so called 2g scam, as it meant cheaper rates but since word got out how much money could be had people got greedy and said the state deserved it instead of private interests. What is the result ? higher mobile rates. What the AAP represents is the same. Higher rates for what could be had for less. Cut down on competition, choice and the result is a captive market where the customers are forced to chase the goods instead of the other way around.

It's the merchant lobby they see their profits dwindling under stiff competition and very deep pockets. That is what they dread the most. They want protectionism.

Haha Im sorry but all your logic is plain absurd. Corruption doesnt drive our economy. Yes some amounts of corruption is expected in a fast growing economy. We are nothing close to fast growing. Secondly there are types and grades of corruption. There is corruption i countries like Japan, where you pay a bribe and your work is done for sure. In India you are still at the mercy of god, after paying out of you nose. Its rationalizing bullshit like this that has the people confused.

Cheap auction of 2g spectrum served no one but the companies that in turn sold it for 2-3x prices. How exactly did you benefit there? The company that serves you has paid the market price for the spectrum, so how exactly will it give you cheaper rates? LOL

Like I said before, you need to read up, you have half knowledge and you couple it with your skepticism and the result is this. You are a coherent person, just read up a bit, some of us have read and followed a lot.

As for retailers, Im all fine with Indian retailers. And I am no swadesi ambassador, I like KFC just as much as CCD (neither are that great) but just making a point. But merely saying that open market is a bluff thrown at developing countries that cant compete with corporate giants from abroad. And there is collateral damage in the form of people already in the chain going out of business. At the minimum it is something to think about seriously.

 

[blr_p]

Haha Im sorry but all your logic is plain absurd. Corruption doesnt drive our economy.

I said democracy. Not economy

And yes what is erroneously referred to corruption is what fuels democracy. It does not happen in the west because corporate lobbying is legalised. How do you do that in India ? you cannot. At least not at the amounts that matter. This can only be done in black. I'm quite ok with this system because if it is legalised then we'll end up with much fewer parties that present. That means a lack of choice in the political market for a large country with diverse requirements isn't appropriate.

The AAP does not want to do this or at least they pretend to it. They won't be able to compete with the bigger parties elsewhere in the country. Right now, they're in the spotlight. Guess what without the money power they ain't going to go too far.

Cheap auction of 2g spectrum served no one but the companies that in turn sold it for 2-3x prices. How exactly did you benefit there? The company that serves you has paid the market price for the spectrum, so how exactly will it give you cheaper rates? LOL

Many others bought spectrum at cheap rates too, not all of them resold. But many licenses got cancelled and reallocated.

Tell me where is Raja ? i predicted at the time he'd not be convicted with anything. He's an undertrial. people got so happy when he went to jail but if they cannot convict him he walks.

As for retailers, Im all fine with Indian retailers. And I am no swadesi ambassador, I like KFC just as much as CCD (neither are that great) but just making a point. But merely saying that open market is a bluff thrown at developing countries that cant compete with corporate giants from abroad. And there is collateral damage in the form of people already in the chain going out of business. At the minimum it is something to think about seriously.

why should i care if those that cannot compete go out of business. If you can't you'll be out on the street. Who's is going to shed a tear about that. This is the case in many countries around the world. Over here there is this lobby that wants to get in the way. To preserve existent inefficencies. Things do not improve because these people win for time to time.

A one line summation of what the fight against FDI in retial actually is.

All eyes are on our sovereign rating after the elections. Do we get relegated to junk bond status because we just cannot attract enough investment or not. Stagnant growth. If we do then things are going to get harder. Loans become more expensive and the rupee slides further.

 

[manu1991]

Such convincing points in favor of FDI in retail:

 

[Sei]

Nice catch. Though he is not exactly correct about China. As per statistics, Chinese Walmarts stock 95% China manufactured goods. Why? Because that's the cheapest that they can get. It's not going to be the same in India. Walmart in India will not have anywhere close to that % of Indian manufatured goods.

 

[Sei]

I'm sure none of you heard Arun Jaitely's speech which I had shared a few pages back but I agreed with one observation of his...
1. India's manufacturing sector is in doldrums and can in no way compete with China at this point.
2. Most of the goods will be sourced from China
3. The profits earned will go out of India.

In the end, owners will be abroad, the suppliers will be Chinese and the only jobs created in India will be those of "salesboys" and "salesgirls"

I again really recommend giving it a watch.

Watch from 11:00.

 

[Sei]

-deleted-

 

[AMG]

Nice law minister you got there AAP!

 

[6pack]

That Ashutosh has such a one sided view on things. He should get out of his Aaj tak or whichever news company mode he is in and go to China. The division between rich & poor there will open the blindfold he has on his eyes.

 

[Sei]

That Ashutosh has such a one sided view on things. He should get out of his Aaj tak or whichever news company mode he is in and go to China. The division between rich & poor there will open the blindfold he has on his eyes.

He is now an AAP member. He has resigned from his post as news editor.

 

[blr_p]

Nice catch. Though he is not exactly correct about China. As per statistics, Chinese Walmarts stock 95% China manufactured goods. Why? Because that's the cheapest that they can get. It's not going to be the same in India. Walmart in India will not have anywhere close to that % of Indian manufatured goods.

Chins is an exception because lots of manufacturing is done there. What about other countries where these retail giants are present.

 

[blr_p]

In the end, owners will be abroad, the suppliers will be Chinese and the only jobs created in India will be those of "salesboys" and "salesgirls"

The counter to this is India is presently a country of shopkeepers.

Both characterisations are an exaggeration with some elements of truth. The service sector contributes just over half to the GDP. You mean to tell me the only service sector jobs are going to be salespeople. In that case we've got bigger problems than just FDI in retail.

The merchant lobby is powerful, they beat back the BJP ten years ago when they wanted to introduce this legislation they threatened UPA with overthrow unless they got a watered down bill that isn't atttractive. Why did Walmart sell its stake back to Bharati.

Something had to be done to please the ratings agencies. Well, where are the foreign entities queuing up to enter India. How many are interested. It would seem to me that the merchant lobby has already won

 

[Sei]

Chins is an exception because lots of manufacturing is done there. What about other countries where these retail giants are present.

If people would just watch the video, I would have to type a lot less.

Anyways, in other countries, the middlemen has been replaced by the "super" middlemen i.e. retailers like Walmart. He gave the example of UK, where around 65% of the market is controlled by only 4 retailers. When farmers have to sell, they have no choice but to sell to them. When you have to buy, you have no choice but to buy from them. In the end, you have an oligopoly.

He said how this is different from say a Reliance mart or Big Bazaar. Walmart is an international retailer with an international supply chain. Our "supermarkets" still purchase most of the stuff from Indian sellers. It will not be the same for India as it is not the same for the USA or any other developed countries.

It helped China create manufacturing as they stocked mainly Chinese goods in the Chinese Walmarts. It also helped China because they made China their global supply hub, apart from creating lot of retail jobs. All in all, a win-win situation for China.

 

[asingh]

I don't know why people are complaining about handing over profits over to 'foreign entities'. Indians want to live abroad, study abroad, do business abroad, but god forbid if a foreign company tries to enter the domestic market. If guess if it were up to people like these, we'd still be driving Ambassadors.

Most of our products are foreign based, come to think of it. Maybe not the water we consume and the air. LOL. The Ambassador was a sturdy chariot I must say. Still is.