What exactly is Government of India doing?


rdst_1

Well-Known Member
Veteran
Have any of you done any farming? Do you know how bad it feels after toiling so hard, you learn that you aren't even allowed to sell your produce to whosoever you want at whatever price you want. I was in for a shock when I found this out 2 years ago when I wanted to sell my first crop. So this freedom of choice is very much needed. The APMCs have become exploitation hubs in the name of protectionism. Farmers get exploited left and right by the middlemen in the APMCs. In Maharashtra, abolition of APMCs was a farmer led movement and they nearly got their goals in 2018. MSP is only for very limited items and still these middlemen don't pay that many times. Only those farmers who majorly grow MSP supported crops are against these reforms. Also those farmers who don't want to change with time, don't want to go that extra mile of selling their produce themselves are against these reforms. Most farmers do 90% of the work for 10% of the profits. Only a few do value addition or sell directly to consumers and that 10% extra work helps them increase their profits manyfolds. Thankfully, their actions won't be termed illegal from now.

Everyone is talking about how big corporates will do this or that. But no one is thinking that why do the farmers even need to sell to corporates. Why can't they show this unity in forming co-operatives and selling their produce directly. This model is already working so well in the dairy industry for so many years now with Amul as the prime example being a multi-thousand crore company which is a co-operative.
 

rdst_1

Well-Known Member
Veteran
Like I said, he doesn't want to change. If he is growing wheat, then why is he even selling to middlemen for 18-20 bucks. He should get it milled to aata and sell directly to customers in a close by city. He will get paid 33 bucks with addition expenditure between 2-5 bucks increasing his profits by 10 bucks. The benefit is to both, the consumer and farmer.
If farmers just want to shift from one middleman to another then they will continue to be exploited no matter who the buyer is.
I grew turmeric last year and spinach this year as an intermediate crop. The mandi people wanted to give me 20 bucks for the turmeric and 10 for the spinach per kg. This despite my produce being organic. The local shopkeepers and the masala companies weren't any better either. Instead, I turned Turmeric into Turmeric powder and sold it to friends and family for an amount which converted to 50 bucks per kg for raw turmeric and I also sold spinach to my local townsfolk for 60 bucks per kg.
Both me and the end user benefitted from this. That is the only way a farmer can truly control his destiny by embracing this freedom.
 

ashoka1

Member
Recruit
Have any of you done any farming? Do you know how bad it feels after toiling so hard, you learn that you aren't even allowed to sell your produce to whosoever you want at whatever price you want. I was in for a shock when I found this out 2 years ago when I wanted to sell my first crop. So this freedom of choice is very much needed. The APMCs have become exploitation hubs in the name of protectionism. Farmers get exploited left and right by the middlemen in the APMCs. In Maharashtra, abolition of APMCs was a farmer led movement and they nearly got their goals in 2018. MSP is only for very limited items and still these middlemen don't pay that many times. Only those farmers who majorly grow MSP supported crops are against these reforms. Also those farmers who don't want to change with time, don't want to go that extra mile of selling their produce themselves are against these reforms. Most farmers do 90% of the work for 10% of the profits. Only a few do value addition or sell directly to consumers and that 10% extra work helps them increase their profits manyfolds. Thankfully, their actions won't be termed illegal from now.

Everyone is talking about how big corporates will do this or that. But no one is thinking that why do the farmers even need to sell to corporates. Why can't they show this unity in forming co-operatives and selling their produce directly. This model is already working so well in the dairy industry for so many years now with Amul as the prime example being a multi-thousand crore company which is a co-operative.
Yes i have done farming.Yes msp is for few items and those few items have demand all over.farmer can sell his crops to anyone many mill owners buys wheat,musterd,cotton,rice etc from farmers.Farmer can store his crops too if he likes only condition is it should not be
bags(bori).msp crops are mostly sold to govt and farmer gets his payment in his account after a month or years in case of sugarcane and trader gets his commission i think its 2rs per quintal of wheat.Farmers grows everything not only msp crops and if farmers gets
rich harvest of those non msp crops their price drops so low that rent for carrying crops to market is high then crop itself so farmer have no choice but to throw away that crops still consumer gets same same vegetables as very high price.farmers sell their crops to consumers directly farmers from rajasthan sells onions in every village and towns of punjab and haryana in their own tractors and trollies but if onions have rich harvest in other states then they take huge loss.Farmer demand for more then decade is to implement contions of Swaminathan report for more then decade instead they got these bills which are against them.https://www.prsindia.org/report-summaries/swaminathan-report-national-commission-farmers.if govt wanted something good then they would have implimented
swaminathan report but they want to benefit big corporates houses.there are many farmers who grows spices grind them pack them and sells to shopkeeper,many grows stawberies,flowers and sell them in metro cities but that's not farming is on big scale.If whole nation not nation lets say one state like all of punjab start growing turmeric then who will consume so much turmeric and what will be price of such crop?if farmer of punjab don't want to change then i don't know who wants to change things you are telling they have done decades ego and left them.Punjab have most fertile land in whole country only better fertile land then punjab is in punjab part of pakistan in whole subcontinent.In 1850 bihar was richest province of india when farmers used to grow indigo there when chemical due was
invented demand of indigo fell in world now look at the condition of farmers in bihar.I grow organic wheat in two acres for self consumption it never grows beyond 8 quintal per acre while in rest of farm where we use fertilizers it grows 20 to 25 quintal per acre.if i wanted to sell that organic wheat will anyone buy at three fold price ie 60 rs per kg.if one thing have gone good for you it doesnt mean it will go good for all and all those lakhs of farmers protesting cant be wron and one single person right.
 
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rdst_1

Well-Known Member
Veteran
Yes i have done farming.Yes msp is for few items and those few items have demand all over.farmer can sell his crops to anyone many mill owners buys wheat,musterd,cotton,rice etc from farmers.Farmer can store his crops too if he likes only condition is it should not be
bags(bori).msp crops are mostly sold to govt and farmer gets his payment in his account after a month or years in case of sugarcane and trader gets his commission i think its 2rs per quintal of wheat.Farmers grows everything not only msp crops and if farmers gets
rich harvest of those non msp crops their price drops so low that rent for carrying crops to market is high then crop itself so farmer have no choice but to throw away that crops still consumer gets same same vegetables as very high price.farmers sell their crops to consumers directly farmers from rajasthan sells onions in every village and towns of punjab and haryana in their own tractors and trollies but if onions have rich harvest in other states then they take huge loss.Farmer demand for more then decade is to implement contions of Swaminathan report for more then decade instead they got these bills which are against them.https://www.prsindia.org/report-summaries/swaminathan-report-national-commission-farmers.if govt wanted something good then they would have implimented
swaminathan report but they want to benefit big corporates houses.there are many farmers who grows spices grind them pack them and sells to shopkeeper,many grows stawberies,flowers and sell them in metro cities but that's not farming is on big scale.If whole nation not nation lets say one state like all of punjab start growing turmeric then who will consume so much turmeric and what will be price of such crop?if farmer of punjab don't want to change then i don't know who wants to change things you are telling they have done decades ego and left them.Punjab have most fertile land in whole country only better fertile land then punjab is in punjab part of pakistan in whole subcontinent.In 1850 bihar was richest province of india when farmers used to grow indigo there when chemical due was
invented demand of indigo fell in world now look at the condition of farmers in bihar.I grow organic wheat in two acres for self consumption it never grows beyond 8 quintal per acre while in rest of farm where we use fertilizers it grows 20 to 25 quintal per acre.if i wanted to sell that organic wheat will anyone buy at three fold price ie 60 rs per kg.if one thing have gone good for you it doesnt mean it will go good for all and all those lakhs of farmers protesting cant be wron and one single person right.
Before the green revolution shifted us to monocropping, farmers were growing all sort of stuff apart from cereals. This type of agriculture that most Indian farmers are practising today is not sustainable and they are only making money due to MSP. No one cares for supply and demand and they grow as much as they want and then cry about there being a glut in the market and they get looted. While the farmers are selling their produce for 2rs/kg in APMC mandis we consumers still pay 40/kg for the same produce. So this disconnect needs to go and this will only go if farmers unite and start selling directly. And I am saying this not just from my personal experience but after looking at all the successful co-operatives operating in India.
Since you are already practicing organic agriculture, I think you are already learning a lot about it, so I won't talk much about it. Just give it some more time, it will take some time for soil health to return (around 3-5 years). After that you will start seeing results. My friends who have done this are now getting better or equal results as they were with chemical agriculture.
I agree with you and with farmers who are protesting that MSP should be a right. Frankly, personally, I don't think MSP is necessary, but I can understand the logic of the farmers when they are asking for protectionism in name of MSP. However, I can't understand the logic behind the love for APMC mandis as almost every farmer has been exploited at these mandis.

Also, all the examples you gave of farmers selling directly already, including me, were doing it illegally till now. That's why at least one of the bills which makes it legal is a welcome change.
 

chetansha

Well-Known Member
Veteran
Some folks will advise, let them cook and sell sabzi
20200928_122521.jpg
20200928_122519.jpg
 

rdst_1

Well-Known Member
Veteran
Some folks will advise, let them cook and sell sabzi View attachment 91112View attachment 91113
This is what is happening due to the current way of selling only in Mandis. If you have nothing to add to the discussion then at least don't troll.

Edit - Like I said I can also understand why so many farmers are against the bill. Came across this very nice dissection of the new acts which try to clearly show what's wrong with the newly passed acts and what the farmers actually want them to be. I have gone through the article and my viewpoint still remains the same because I still have confidence in the way I am going about earning money through agriculture and I think it can be emulated by others as well as I have emulated it from those who were already doing it successfully.
 
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ashoka1

Member
Recruit
Before the green revolution shifted us to monocropping, farmers were growing all sort of stuff apart from cereals. This type of agriculture that most Indian farmers are practising today is not sustainable and they are only making money due to MSP. No one cares for supply and demand and they grow as much as they want and then cry about there being a glut in the market and they get looted. While the farmers are selling their produce for 2rs/kg in APMC mandis we consumers still pay 40/kg for the same produce. So this disconnect needs to go and this will only go if farmers unite and start selling directly. And I am saying this not just from my personal experience but after looking at all the successful co-operatives operating in India.
Since you are already practicing organic agriculture, I think you are already learning a lot about it, so I won't talk much about it. Just give it some more time, it will take some time for soil health to return (around 3-5 years). After that you will start seeing results. My friends who have done this are now getting better or equal results as they were with chemical agriculture.
I agree with you and with farmers who are protesting that MSP should be a right. Frankly, personally, I don't think MSP is necessary, but I can understand the logic of the farmers when they are asking for protectionism in name of MSP. However, I can't understand the logic behind the love for APMC mandis as almost every farmer has been exploited at these mandis.

Also, all the examples you gave of farmers selling directly already, including me, were doing it illegally till now. That's why at least one of the bills which makes it legal is a welcome change.
Actually i am growing organic wheat for last 15 years and yield will remain as it is because i am using different variety of seeds(very old) for home consumption wheat.It grows lot taller then normal wheat and it lays down flat if winds are too fast.no one have ever taken
more yield from this variety.I also rotate crops after one crop cycle i grow gwar to increase nitrogen level in soil so i have to put less fertilizers and land remains fertile too.
you say you have read current afri bill still you don't know what law is when it's comes to selling of your own products and you calls it illegal strange.let me tell you you can sell your products to anyone you like but you can not sell your crops in mandis of different state
this is because some state have higher msp,bonus etc on crops then others and farmers,merchents will start bringing their grains to state which have highest msp this law was for this purpose outside of mandi sell it anyone you want(this new bill guarntee that you can sell now in state mandis so price will be same in country).Before this bill merchants were not allowed to stock grains but farmer was allowed to stock his crops as much he likes.now these new bills have given free hand to stockists to store grains they will buy it stock it and raise price will a consumer benefit from this or be in loss?in another way they have legalised kalabazari for big corporates.If you have read these acts then you might have also read this(The Farmers Agreement Ordinance creates a framework for contract farming through an agreement between a farmer and a buyer prior to the production or rearing of any farm produce. It provides for a three-level dispute settlement mechanism: the conciliation board, Sub-Divisional Magistrate and Appellate Authority) now if any dispute arises
DC is highest appellate authority govt have not included courts as appellate authority which make these shady in first place.If a contractor backs off from his contract where will farmer sell his crops?to same contractor at half price.there are many such sections in these
bills i can't explain them all here but these bills are clearly against farmers and in favor of corporate companies
 

rdst_1

Well-Known Member
Veteran
Actually i am growing organic wheat for last 15 years and yield will remain as it is because i am using different variety of seeds(very old) for home consumption wheat.It grows lot taller then normal wheat and it lays down flat if winds are too fast.no one have ever taken
more yield from this variety.I also rotate crops after one crop cycle i grow gwar to increase nitrogen level in soil so i have to put less fertilizers and land remains fertile too.
you say you have read current afri bill still you don't know what law is when it's comes to selling of your own products and you calls it illegal strange.let me tell you you can sell your products to anyone you like but you can not sell your crops in mandis of different state
this is because some state have higher msp,bonus etc on crops then others and farmers,merchents will start bringing their grains to state which have highest msp this law was for this purpose outside of mandi sell it anyone you want(this new bill guarntee that you can sell now in state mandis so price will be same in country).Before this bill merchants were not allowed to stock grains but farmer was allowed to stock his crops as much he likes.now these new bills have given free hand to stockists to store grains they will buy it stock it and raise price will a consumer benefit from this or be in loss?in another way they have legalised kalabazari for big corporates.If you have read these acts then you might have also read this(The Farmers Agreement Ordinance creates a framework for contract farming through an agreement between a farmer and a buyer prior to the production or rearing of any farm produce. It provides for a three-level dispute settlement mechanism: the conciliation board, Sub-Divisional Magistrate and Appellate Authority) now if any dispute arises
DC is highest appellate authority govt have not included courts as appellate authority which make these shady in first place.If a contractor backs off from his contract where will farmer sell his crops?to same contractor at half price.there are many such sections in these
bills i can't explain them all here but these bills are clearly against farmers and in favor of corporate companies
Even I have acknowledged all these points through the article I have linked in my previous post and I have also acknowledged that my views remain the same. Farmers should form co-operatives and sell end products directly to consumers and many young farmers like me agree with my approach. Any middlemen that one uses is going to try and exploit you in a capitalist economy. So you need to either unite to regulate prices or try and sell directly to end user to eliminate the middlemen.
As for your yields, one can't/shouldn't compare yield of heirloom varieties with that of hybrid varities of today. If you don't mind me asking, can you PM me where you are growing these heirloom varieties and can I get some seeds of the same.
 

ashoka1

Member
Recruit
Trader(aadhti) is not middleman how many times i have tell that(Many farmers also do busyness of trading(aadath).He is commission agent earning rs 2 per 100kg that too from govt.There is no middleman in mandis of Haryana,Punjab,UP and rajasthan.we have strong mandis mechanism in these states.In Bihar ,Mp condition of farmers In these states is very bad.farmers are exploited by middleman in these states so many farmers from MP sell their crops in mandi of Rajasthan.You are young and and i am also not old but i learnt great deal about what is in benefit of farmers and what not from my great grand father,then my grand fater.What they told me is happening exact apposite of that and i am not going to believe this govt can do any good for farmers. Fortunately we had some great farmer
leaders in these state and they made laws in favor of farmers.Sir ch chottu ram,chran singh,devi lal were all great farmer leaders.Ch chotu ram passed a law according to which no busyness class person was allowed to purchase land of farmers in greater pumjab.This ruling party is made entirely by corporate houses and it will always work in their favor they will never ever will do something good for farmers and middle class and who thinks they will are sourly mistaken.Don,t forget when this party first came in power our PM first
desire was to pass land acquisition bill.This govt was first to impose road tax on tractor before that there was no road tax on tractor.
I lives in Haryana and wheat you asked is c306.wheter it suits you it will depend on climate and soil.You can also try 2967 variety it will not grow untill you put urea in it so just increase seeds instead of 40,50 kg put 100 kg seed per acre.put seeds in one in straight line and one across that line its hard to put 100kg seed in conventional way. one of labor by mistake mixed one bag of non organic wheat in organic wheat so i have to buy new organic seed this year.Let me know your where you live when i will buy my seed i can buy for you too and send to you.But crops are researched acording to zones in india what grows well in north may not grow well in west.If you want to grow very old true indigenous then there is sona-moti variety believed it originated in mohenjo daro.Finding seed for this variety is tuff but i will try.
 

rdst_1

Well-Known Member
Veteran
Trader(aadhti) is not middleman how many times i have tell that(Many farmers also do busyness of trading(aadath).He is commission agent earning rs 2 per 100kg that too from govt.There is no middleman in mandis of Haryana,Punjab,UP and rajasthan.we have strong mandis mechanism in these states.In Bihar ,Mp condition of farmers In these states is very bad.farmers are exploited by middleman in these states so many farmers from MP sell their crops in mandi of Rajasthan.You are young and and i am also not old but i learnt great deal about what is in benefit of farmers and what not from my great grand father,then my grand fater.What they told me is happening exact apposite of that and i am not going to believe this govt can do any good for farmers. Fortunately we had some great farmer
leaders in these state and they made laws in favor of farmers.Sir ch chottu ram,chran singh,devi lal were all great farmer leaders.Ch chotu ram passed a law according to which no busyness class person was allowed to purchase land of farmers in greater pumjab.This ruling party is made entirely by corporate houses and it will always work in their favor they will never ever will do something good for farmers and middle class and who thinks they will are sourly mistaken.Don,t forget when this party first came in power our PM first
desire was to pass land acquisition bill.This govt was first to impose road tax on tractor before that there was no road tax on tractor.
I lives in Haryana and wheat you asked is c306.wheter it suits you it will depend on climate and soil.You can also try 2967 variety it will not grow untill you put urea in it so just increase seeds instead of 40,50 kg put 100 kg seed per acre.put seeds in one in straight line and one across that line its hard to put 100kg seed in conventional way. one of labor by mistake mixed one bag of non organic wheat in organic wheat so i have to buy new organic seed this year.Let me know your where you live when i will buy my seed i can buy for you too and send to you.But crops are researched acording to zones in india what grows well in north may not grow well in west.If you want to grow very old true indigenous then there is sona-moti variety believed it originated in mohenjo daro.Finding seed for this variety is tuff but i will try.
I am currently farming in Himachal but have lots of extended family farming in Haryana for over 50 years and some maybe longer and yes they are happy with the current system. When a Mandi is functioning as per rules, then definitely the 'arthiya' is not the middlemen. But have seen it personally when the farmer just sell off their produce to the arthiya himself and that is what I have seen happen mostly. That's what my relatives tell me. They have a very long relationship with their 'arthiyas' who also loan them money when needed and are very happy with the current functioning. However, they only grow MSP supported crops and all the bad experiences I hear are from my friends who grow vegetables. My experience was similar and hence I decided not to sell through Mandi as it felt as clear exploitation. But even those vegetable farmers are actually protesting against these changes and they have been fighting for sometime now to get MSP instated for vegetables as well. I understand that this is the best way forward considering that we are kind of a socialist country, even though we don't say it. However, inspite of being very bad at sales myself, I still believe that any farmer can become much more profitable if they sell directly to end customers and that should be everyone's aim.
 

ashoka1

Member
Recruit
Vegetables are not covered under msp.This is crop where farmers bears huge loses and many time have to throw it away because of low prices but consumers never gets those low prices.Prices for vegetables are always high for consumers.
Every product of farmers should be included in msp but main aim of these bill is to completely eliminate msp,not only msp govt don't even want to purchase farmer crops.that's why they have opened doors for private companies in agri sector which already dead
thanks to the policies of this govt and earlier govts.Fci have lots of own go dawns of their own.capacities of fci godowns has decreased to 20% then it used to be in 2007,08.Govt has given license of grain godowns to their dear ones and now govt is storing grains in these godowns at very high rent instead of repairing fci godowns.Fci godowns are big,in cities and have great commercial value so govt will sell fci to some private friends of their.Aadth system is not great but it's better then what govt have offered.They will be first in line to get effected.once this aadhtis,mandis,msp,small agri mills are gone then farmer will be totally dependent on big private companies and they will decide price of farmers crops and farmers will be enslaved on their own lands. that's why farmers and traders are protesting together.One of rti activist filed a rti about crop insurance companies that how much these crop insurance companies have collected money in last five years and how much they have paid to farmers whose crops got destroyed you can't imagine what reply was.Reply was we can't disclose this information because discloser of such information can be danger to nation sovereignty and security.
 

nimod

Well-Known Member
Adept
One of rti activist filed a rti about crop insurance companies that how much these crop insurance companies have collected money in last five years and how much they have paid to farmers whose crops got destroyed you can't imagine what reply was.Reply was we can't disclose this information because discloser of such information can be danger to nation sovereignty and security.

Thats correct reply.
Now these corporates are nation's sovereign.
And security of their profits is nation's security.
 

Tejas01

Well-Known Member
Adept
Yeah, saw his interview on Ndtv. Apparently these baffons are trained to put blame for all the ills in the country on Congress.
 

codelad

Member
Disciple
The discussion on farmers reminds me of a time in the mid-90s when my parents (both practicing small-town doctors at the time) decided to put to use a piece of land (~1.25 acres) we own in a nearby village, primarily to employ and benefit a few people nearby. All of them were largely landless farmers or labourers who earned seasonal wages working as farm-hands.

We grew okra and brought up fairly decent yields. But the real problem was in selling/marketing them. The vendors/middle-men would quote such throw-away prices (being wise to the fact that vegetables were perishable and we didn't have much choice) that my parents thought it better to just give it away free to people in the area (first to family/friends and eventually to anyone who asked). Add to this, they would bully us against selling it ourselves and my parents being non-confrontational just gave up. This continued for a couple more years till it was no longer viable.

They then tried setting up a small dairy, and again it led to the same problems selling/marketing and led to fairly heavy losses and we closed down for good in a couple more years.

Only later did my parents realise that our endeavour was neither too small to withstand losses nor big enough to persist. And marketing your yield is probably so much more tougher than actually producing them.

It may have been their lack of time, enough contacts in the farming community, mis-management (due to lack of supervision) among many other factors. They were eventually able to shrug it off and carry on, since their profession (and primary commitment) lay elsewhere - their medical practice.

But it's hard not to feel sorry for so many other "real" farmers who face these real issues selling their produce.

Do not agree at all with someone earlier who said something along the lines of how the recent govt. bills give farmers a choice to flourish and something about how they can co-operate, turn raw produce into something ready to sell, etc.

While this may hold true for a young, educated, TE-reading and possibly well-to-do farmer, the average Indian farmer will most definitely be semi-literate (or illiterate), naive, distrustful and neck-deep in debts. Expecting them to thrive (or even survive) in an open/free market all by themselves would be crazy.

If my parents (who were fairly influential/respected) couldn't drive a fair bargain to sell their produce, what chance would a small-holding vegetable farmer have? Granted, there are no simple solutions, but what they need is as much support/hand-holding from the state as possible without being too patronising. It is my feeling that the government has unleashed just the opposite on them - especially on small farmers.
 

rdst_1

Well-Known Member
Veteran
While this may hold true for a young, educated, TE-reading and possibly well-to-do farmer, the average Indian farmer will most definitely be semi-literate (or illiterate), naive, distrustful and neck-deep in debts. Expecting them to thrive (or even survive) in an open/free market all by themselves would be crazy.

There are many many examples of these semi-literate farmers who are already doing it with some help and some all on their own.
In fact, in Maharshtra, the movement to get APMC Mandis abolished was the brainchild of one such farmer co-operative organization and they very nearly succeeded in 2018. However, nothing is black and white and I understand that. What maybe good for one may be bad for someone else. It's just my personal belief, for a very long time now, that every farmer should at least try and sell their products directly to end customers as it is completely logical that they will make better profits that way. Elimination of middlemen would result in better profits in almost every business.
 

chetansha

Well-Known Member
Veteran
So i wantto buy Kashmiri apples. Ok now i find a farmer who will ship the product to me, oh yes, i want wheat from Mp,.now i will have to wait and see if any farmer is going to come and give it to me.
Kya logic hai
Not even gods can save us from such
 

codelad

Member
Disciple
There are many many examples of these semi-literate farmers who are already doing it with some help and some all on their own.
... However, nothing is black and white and I understand that. What maybe good for one may be bad for someone else. It's just my personal belief, for a very long time now, that every farmer should at least try and sell their products directly to end customers as it is completely logical that they will make better profits that way...

Have to admit:
* that a farmer selling his/her produce directly will undoubtedly reap better profits
* and, any farmer is potentially capable of accomplishing this

In reality though, while a small minority of farmers may pull this off (even so, I would believe it would be despite the system and not because of it), is it fair to expect this in general?
 

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