Anna Hazare's fast against corruption

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Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

^^ Actually HK is completely autonomous. The only 2 things that PRC is handling is defence and foreign affairs. The original agreement between british and PRC is like that only. That assures that China cannot enforce its political and social clout on HK for at least 50 years (upto 2047).

They have their own seperate governing body and judiciary system and have totally different set of civic laws.

The actual government is a perfect example of how politics and civic bodies can actually come together to form a progressive government focused on economic and social growth of the region where half the people from legislative council elected by direct general elections and other half is selected by functional constituencies electors.

Such model is unlikely to work in large country like ours though.

blr_p said:
No,

GOI: any complaint is made to the president who then passed it on to the acting CJI

JLP: an independent commitee is made up to hear the allegations and act on them if necessary, president not required.

lokpal can ever police itself that would be a big no-no. But JLP stipulates...
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What you are talking about is removal of lokpal himself.

There are 2 things involved.

1. Grievances against lokpal (chairpaerson) and the mebers and their removal.

Here GOI says the complaint is to be made to President of India, he will refer the matter to CJI if he feels there is the chance of corruption / bias on the part of lokpal members / chair. After investigation by CJI proper action will be taken

Civil society draft says anyone can lodge complaint with SC after which they will hold an inquiry if found guilty, can recommend the removal to president.

2. Grievances against lokpal staff(other than members and chairperson . Includes lokpal officers) and their removal.

Here GOI wants Lokpal himself to investigate and punish.

Civil society recommend independent authority.

EDIT

By the way that Kumar Saptarshee from that video on youtube slamming Anna is praising this movement on television right now :P

EDIT 2 : Here is the link to PDF which has detailed comparison table of differences between Govt and Civil bill proposals.

http://www.thehindu.com/multimedia/archive/00664/Differences_in_Lokp_664382a.pdf

 
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

Shripad said:
The actual government is a perfect example of how politics and civic bodies can actually come together to form a progressive government focused on economic and social growth of the region where half the people from legislative council elected by direct general elections and other half is selected by functional constituencies electors.

Such model is unlikely to work in large country like ours though.
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This is an interesting admission, so what you're saying is that the HK model is incapable of scaling.

Have said earlier that if the scope for action is very wide as in the JLP, LP will become completely paralysed due to the volume of cases. Narrow the scope and it becomes more workable.

agree ?

Shripad said:
What you are talking about is removal of lokpal himself.

There are 2 things involved.

1. Grievances against lokpal (chairpaerson) and the mebers and their removal.

Here GOI says the complaint is to be made to President of India, he will refer the matter to CJI if he feels there is the chance of corruption / bias on the part of lokpal members / chair. After investigation by CJI proper action will be taken

Civil society draft says anyone can lodge complaint with SC after which they will hold an inquiry if found guilty, can recommend the removal to president.
2. Grievances against lokpal staff(other than members and chairperson . Includes lokpal officers) and their removal.

Here GOI wants Lokpal himself to investigate and punish.

Civil society recommend independent authority.
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Avi's question was how do we ensure Lok pal isn't corrupt.

The answer i think is we cannot with either bill, because its impossible. What can be done is if allegations come up that the offending member can be replaced. So its the threat of removal that helps keep ppl honest.
 
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

blr_p said:
This is an interesting admission, so what you're saying is that the HK model is incapable of scaling.

Have said earlier that if the scope for action is very wide as in the JLP, LP will become completely paralysed due to the volume of cases. Narrow the scope and it becomes more workable.

agree ?
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narrowing the scope is not an option. Corruption has to be punishable at all levels.

JLP wants to have central Lokpal and all state level agencies which report directly to the Lokpal but carry out state level work on their own. Basically it frees up current Lokayuktas from manipulation by state government politics. They will still be able to do do job at state level and central lokpal members would be free to concentrate on corruption in centre with very limited direct state level workload for them to handle.

Just having Central lokpal with limited scope and at the same time abolishing all other current state level anti corruption agencies will only do more harm than good.

Coming to HK model, its successful because HK is a small state focused on social and economical (mainly financial ) progress. They do not have to deal with vast geo-political differences like we do. Our economy is not just based on financial market. Thats the main reason such model is unlikely to work.

But having more corporate, agricultural , medical/healthcare and other civil bodies representation in the government would only benefit. The only problem is there needs to be political will to actually listen to what those representative have to say and implement the same. There are few good examples of this on the state level politics. But we are yet to see significant input from these sectors being heard at central level.
 
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

Shripad said:
narrowing the scope is not an option. Corruption has to be punishable at all levels..
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And thats great in principle, how about the implementation ?

What do you make of Sibal's answer here...

Now, the question is, one, the extent of the area that the Lokpal wishes to occupy. Should it be leviathan, in other words, they say that you should cover every central government employee. Now, if the number of central government employees, I maybe right or wrong, is about 4 million about 40 lakhs, so..

- what kind of structure will you need?
- How many officers, do you need?
- How will that structure be kept in check?

And, this is your parallel structure outside the government, should you have a parallel structure outside the government answerable to nobody? And, if you want to cover state government employees, that's another 8 million, so you are really covering 1 crore 20 lakh employees in the government through a Lokpal. How will that happen?

Now, this is a huge area of concern for us. I am just telling you the structure. Our structure is let's limit it, because by and large people are concerned with corruption at high places, because all the alleged scams that have taken place are in respect of corrupt people, you know, at high places. Let's deal with that. There are existing machineries for others, lets strengthen thos machineries.
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Ofcourse we have an open mind. But, it should not be. See, it should not be something that is not manageable. Ultimately, where will you get the investigating agency from Karan? Either the existing, we are not going to get from heaven! The existing investigating agency, part of them will have to be transferred to them until they recruit fresh people. Where will you get the prosecuting agencies? From the existing, right? So all those people will be from the existing structure. Let me just post the question. If the existing structure is corrupt, and everybody in the existing structure is corrupt, which is their premise, then how will they suddenly become pure, merely because they are transferred?
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Also how do you take the judiciary into accout [here]

Kapil Sibal :Now the question is should it be under the Lokpal or should it under the judiciary accountability?

Karan Thapar: What is your answer?

Kapil Sibal : My answer is that it should not be under the Lokpal.

Karan Thapar: Why?

Kapil Sibal : I tell you, I tell you a fundamental reason. Let’s assume the Lokpal has control over the judiciary in terms of investigation and prosecution and assume in a given case the prosecutor of the Lokpal files a case against an accused and the judge doesn’t agree with the Lokpal on that particular case. Both in the terms of substance and even on bail. The judge will always be worried that I will be investigated by the Lokpal if I disagree.

Karan Thapar: So it will be a factor of intimidation?

Kapil Sibal : No, it is against the substratum of all we stand for.

Karan Thapar: Plus there is circularity of authority.

Kapil Sibal : Yeah, you can’t give that power of judiciary, when the judiciary has to be independent of every authority.

Karan Thapar: So this is a good reason why the judges needs to come under a separate bill, not the Lokpal.

Kapil Sibal : Not the Lokpal because the prosecutor will control both the charge as well as the fate of the case and the judge will be worried.
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Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

here are existing machineries for others, lets strengthen those machineries.
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Then bring those machineries under lokpal & away from govt's influence. That's the best way to strengthen them by bringing them outside the govt's influence.

If Mr. Sibal has better ideas of doing so, what is he waiting for ? They are running govt. since 8yrs continuously, still now - we'll do this & we'll do that (future tense) ?

f the existing structure is corrupt, and everybody in the existing structure is corrupt, which is their premise, then how will they suddenly become pure, merely because they are transferred?
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If I say "Yes" to this question ? Most people are corrupt because they need to work under the influence of politicians & other touts who force them to function in the way they want. For example, CBI (Congress Bureau of Investigation) . Plus, they know that it is easy to get away with doing anything as punishment is not very strict & so is the investigating agency.

Given that, I am against bringing Judiciary under lokpal. Even Civil society is softening its stand on this as they know that that wouldn't be good.
 
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

Those concerns are about implementation.

There is no need for weaker bill just to justify your inability to immediately deal with the bigger problem. We all know problem is not going to be solved overnight. It will be gradual process of implementing this. It will take time but it needs strong bill to begin with.

If a the bill is weak to begin with, it will have the same fate as current CVC. Where corrupt people managed to be at the helm of CVC.

Get the strong bill in then start building infrastructure needed to deal with the entire problem. 18 states already have lokayuktas at state levels. Adding this office at state level in each state can be done progressively.

Starting with a weaker bill just because you cannot immediately build up the infrastructure is weak excuse. Also there is different approach when it comes to investigating and prosecuting high level officials. First there needs to be a complaint filed by someone. Second it requires the permission of seven member bench of lokpal to go ahead with the investigation.

ANd what Sibal says is applicable if Judiciary is brought under lokpal under government's draft. No such worry if Lokpal himself is responsible for determining the punishment and fines.
 
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

All this talk about implementation and caveats leads to one simple observation about human beings:

The good can never win over evil because the good is always weak, docile, and caring.
The evil is always strong, aggressive and not caring about anyone else.

This leads to the fact that during the war if given a chance the good will never smite the evil off because it will always hesitate about whether it is right or wrong to eliminate the evil doer.
Whereas the evil, given a chance will come up with plans to remove the good from its path at the slightest provocation. (and of course won't hesitate about taking action when time calls)
Poor good ppl and their ideologies!
 
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

ssslayer said:
All this talk about implementation and caveats leads to one simple observation about human beings:

The good can never win over evil because the good is always weak, docile, and caring.

The evil is always strong, aggressive and not caring about anyone else.

This leads to the fact that during the war if given a chance the good will never smite the evil off because it will always hesitate about whether it is right or wrong to eliminate the evil doer.

Whereas the evil, given a chance will come up with plans to remove the good from its path at the slightest provocation. (and of course won't hesitate about taking action when time calls)

Poor good ppl and their ideologies!
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Put out your philosophy. The corrupt people are not evil. This is entirely natural when you don't have proper laws & restriction. Anybody & everybody wants to earn as much money as possible. Unless you have stringent rules to check & punish wrongdoings, this will prevail.
 
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

Shripad said:
Those concerns are about implementation.
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But implementation has been the place where all of our existing anti-corruption measures have failed. I've noticed that for every corruption case that gets made a hundred other people would be commiting the same offence and get away with it coz corruption cases are typically used as a weapon by people(within the system) with grudges than a legitimate victim. And the ones who usually get prosecuted are ones who aren't as deeply involved and get made into scapegoats coz they don't know how to work the system properly to their advantage. If the scope is kept as all govt employees at the start itself then I'm certain that it will inherit all the existing problems. How can you claim that a bill is strong just because of its clauses when its implementation is going to be hindered by having large scope? How about going the reverse way and see how well it works for the top officials and then expand the scope down the ladder as the machinery gets further established? That seems to be a much more logical way to approach things imo.

The scope and the powers of prosecution given to the jlp is the reason why I can't support it. The excessive amount of checks and having to report to others which provide too many safeguards to elected officials the reason I can't support the govt's lp.
 
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

blr_p said:
Avi's question was how do we ensure Lok pal isn't corrupt.

The answer i think is we cannot with either bill, because its impossible. What can be done is if allegations come up that the offending member can be replaced. So its the threat of removal that helps keep ppl honest.
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Or we will fast unto death for another Supreme Lok Pal Bill which monitors Jan Lok Pal Bill. Now if you ask me what if Supreme LP goes corrupt, then we can have Ultimate Lok Pal bill & this continues :P

On a serious note, there so many Gov. employees, 1 Crore etc, now how many people will be there in JLP ? How they gonna be appointed ? How the structure & it's system is going to work ? Is there any explanation for this in JLP bill ?

Few people are supporting Dictatorship. Say, Anna is good guy [or God as our Agantuk quoted], he rules our nation & everything will be good. Now, who will be next Dictator ? What chances are that he don't go evil ? I don't want to see Hitler in real.
 
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

^^ You cannot start implementation without the bill first being passed into the parliament. Strong legislation must exist before you can actually catch these guys. Currently these guys get away with it only because we do not have strong enough laws and agency to curb corruption.

And scope has to be large to begin with. With limited scope, like I said, we will end up with something similar to CVC. You can build up the infrastructure top down. Some states already have the state level infrastructure. The approach has to be top down in cases like these, but a fundamentally strong bill ensure there are no hurdles in the future when you actually start using this new system to catch and punish corrupt people. This ensure than those people do not have escape route.

If our ancestors had thought that way, we wouldnt have our existing constitution. We still cannot guarantee some fundamental rights that our constitution offers to every citizen. But does that mean they were wrong in having those strong fundamental rights and the laws to protect them to the citizens? Ofcourse not.

The same is with this law. Any weaker form will just head the way of CVC. People will still have nothing that will protect them and have their complaints heard. You dont give prosecution power to Lokpal, and its as good as a toy that can be manipulated by those in powers the way they wish. If Lokpal can only has only recommending powers, who will assure that action is taken against corrupt official or government ministers or MPs or MLAs? The burden of prosecution will come onto government agencies in such cases, and that defeats the entire purpose of existence of an independent anti-corruption wing.

You cannot have one without other. No prosecution power = one more useless investigating agency.
 
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

Ok... I was confusing prosecution with passing judgement. What I was trying to say was that the lokpal should make the case in court and let the judiciary pass judgement/impose penalties.
 
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

ggt said:
<snip>

wanted to share this

rest i guess you can judge it :@
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I don't remember last when I've listened to so much crap. This guy is putting some serious allegations which he cannot prove at a court of law.

BTW, this video has nothing to do with this campaign. This was shot in February.
 
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

chiron said:
The Hindu : Opinion / Lead : I'd rather not be Anna
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This coming from a lady who thinks the anti-national separatist movement is genuine and must be supported and be heard and we must listen to their demands. That is something we should be proud of, but the current movement is unintelligible according to her.... right!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Aruna Roy at least has better credibility than her (though she is a NAC member herself, but at least she has good background of some real work).
 
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

I'm not sure of what to make of the article as a whole which is why I didn't comment on it but she makes interesting points regarding jlp leaving out corporations as well as the "anti-reservation" crowd. The major losses incurred by govt through corruption is those that involve awarding of contracts, resource allocation and policy making. The biggest gains made from those are obviously by the corporates whether it be a highway contract or telecom one or rules that allow various substances to be used in industry or whatnot. We make a big deal about ministers no getting punished but what do you think is going to be the punishment to be given to Etisalat and the Ambanis? Compared to that the low level corruption(bribes given to policemen/officials for making paperwork etc) would amount to only a tiny percentage of the monetary loss despite it directly involving a much larger number of people.
 
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

add the ngos and media to it ,wonder why JLP never wanted to figure out NGO's
 
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

chiron said:
I'm not sure of what to make of the article as a whole which is why I didn't comment on it but she makes interesting points regarding jlp leaving out corporations as well as the "anti-reservation" crowd. The major losses incurred by govt through corruption is those that involve awarding of contracts, resource allocation and policy making. The biggest gains made from those are obviously by the corporates whether it be a highway contract or telecom one or rules that allow various substances to be used in industry or whatnot. We make a big deal about ministers no getting punished but what do you think is going to be the punishment to be given to Etisalat and the Ambanis? Compared to that the low level corruption(bribes given to policemen/officials for making paperwork etc) would amount to only a tiny percentage of the monetary loss despite it directly involving a much larger number of people.
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The corruption of both types will be punishable under lokpal. Those who accepting bribes in the form of money and those handing out unjustified favours to the outside party will both be punished.

Any outside party who is caught trying to bribe the officials asking for favours will be punished by civil courts. When the officials involved know their neck will be on the line, the effect will start to filter down to actual ground work.

Reservation is whole other matter. But even that needs to be eradicated over time step by step by actually allotting resources for development of deprived classes of our society and bringing their standard of living and facilities available to them upwards. That matter better be left to be discussed in separate thread.

Arundhati Roy has been known to oppose any pro-national sentiments, those involve anything done for the betterment of the nation on whole. Be it action of NDA or UPA. She criticised the action taken on the attackers of 2001 parliament attacks, she again tried to dismiss the efforts of our govt to make Pakistan bend after 2008 attack and said these attacks cannot be seen in isolation. She has history of making sensational statements and usually tried to drag some other issue and link it to some other grand problem of our nation. More of a self-indulgent pseudo socialist personality. Anything anyone from India (be it government or any civilian ) does for betterment of India or benefit of people of India, she has to oppose.
 
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