Anna Hazare's fast against corruption

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Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

Maybe someone needs to create a flow chart which will help people take a stand on either side. At present, it seems they are holding contradictory stands. Surely it must hurt them to hold inconsistent thoughts. Again the question arises: what do you want?
 
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

anti corruption , anti anna's bill .... does that make sense?
 
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

broadway said:
Maybe someone needs to create a flow chart which will help people take a stand on either side. At present, it seems they are holding contradictory stands. Surely it must hurt them to hold inconsistent thoughts. Again the question arises: what do you want?

20 MBps connection with NO FUP would do :)
 
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

kippu said:
i bribed a traffic cop yesterday , watch pirated tv shows , movies , earlier was even operating systems , show fraudlent bills to lower my taxes ....

i am totally against corruption
I think we are discussing about political corruption here and not your moral impurity. We all deviate from the publicly acceptable norms of society.

You bribing a traffic cop and a group of people siphoning off crores from government funds cannot be discussed in the same breath or even the same platform.

Also it may not be possible to hold you accountable even after the bill. However once the bill is passed, it should be possible to hold people accountable who misuse their position.

PS: You pirating movies is not really classified as corruption (moral maybe) but more accurately as theft.
 
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

that is true , but these individual acts of corruption is what just goes from the ground level to the top level....., unless people change , this will not go away and i am definitely against giving all power to a

lokpal ,

sorry i dont feel like i am trolling... are you suggesting anna's bill is the only way to tackle corruption

and i am curious , lets say that janlokpal is tabled in the parliament and it is rejected , what will happen then
 
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

Renegade said:
I think we are discussing about political corruption here and not your moral impurity. We all deviate from the publicly acceptable norms of society.

You bribing a traffic cop and a group of people siphoning off crores from government funds cannot be discussed in the same breath or even the same platform.

Also it may not be possible to hold you accountable even after the bill. However once the bill is passed, it should be possible to hold people accountable who misuse their position.

PS: You pirating movies is not really classified as corruption (moral maybe) but more accurately as theft.

Corruption is a phenomenon by which a person acquires something, which he would not have otherwise if he had followed the law.

So, participating in piracy is also a form of corruption.
 
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

kippu said:
sorry i dont feel like i am trolling... are you suggesting anna's bill is the only way to tackle corruption
Yes. This bill gives power to a third authority. At present our courts and investigation committees are influenced by the incumbent govt. This needs to chance. It can only come if you segregate watchdogs and administrators. Watchdogs need to have power.

kippu said:
and i am curious , lets say that janlokpal is tabled in the parliament and it is rejected , what will happen then
There are millions in rural india that have no faith in democracy and have taken up guns to keep the police and govt away from their villages. There is no sure way to establish order. Situation dictates your ethics.

Mephistopheles said:
Corruption is a phenomenon by which a person acquires something, which he would not have otherwise if he had followed the law.
That's a justification of bribery. It shows the level to which things have degraded. It doesn't have to be that way. Actually, it shouldn't be that way.
 
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

mav2000 said:
Wow, I wonder how many people have actually any idea on the government lokpal bill and what it says..... It's sad to see educated folks here actually supporting a farce government and a bill which seeks to kill any those against corruption.[/b]
Will be getting into this soon on IBF

mav2000 said:
How many of you have seen the work of justice Santosh hedge going to waste in Karnataka??
Toppled a serving CM ?

broadway said:
An individuals stand on the current campaign can only be one of the two: You are either against corruption or in favour of corruption.

That is it, there are no "buts". Quit taking people in circles.
Greetings Mr. Bush :P
already said why i think this way of thinking is just manipulative rather than legitimate

broadway said:
Any excuse that undermines the current campaign against corruption is technically favouring corruption.
Yeah yeah, yeah, boo, hisss...
 
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

@blr_p
I'm sorry. I thought you actually had something to say.
 
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

Oh and Shripad can you pls listen to what Kumar Ketkar had to say on Karan's show last night ?

Video stream is here

Broadway : i do have something to say ...cut the crap.
 
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

blr_p said:
Broadway : i do have something to say ...cut the crap.
Allow me me make sense of your word mash.

What you want to say is to do nothing.
What you want to say to people who are doing something is to stop doing whatever they are doing.

What this means is that you have taken a stand: You have taken a stand against the anti-corruption campaign.

You seem unusually hostile today. Did I bust your bubble?
 
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

Spacescreamer said:
For people who been saying that he is seeking attention... Exactly what ll a 74 yr old man get by hogging attention..?
Take a look at his track record and then speak about him being a limelight seeker.
I would not say Hazare is courting attention, i have an issue with the coercive methods he is using that is all.

Ramdev otoh is certainly trying to grab onto hazares coattails.

broadway: look up the term false dichotomy, i really think i would not have to tell you this.
 
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

But that's your opinion.

There is no third stand. You either are against corruption or in favour of it. That's a fact that doesn't need explanation.
 
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

broadway said:
But that's your opinion.
no, it is YOUR opinion. There's quite a few ppl that have an issue with the tactics used by hazare in this thread.

You're just putting words into our mouth.
 
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

there are actually 1 or 2 other variations of this lokpal bill by other civil society people , not that anyone is interested in reading about them
 
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

@blr_p
Tactics derive from situations. The rule book was thrown out of the window a long time ago.

Tell you what... You think about what you want to say to me. Not some random term you found in the dictionary; a real argument. I'll keep checking back.
 
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

broadway said:
@blr_p
Tactics derive from situations. The rule book as thrown out of the window a long time ago.
And that is what is corrupting the pure motives of this movement, Ironic when you think of it isn't it.

Do means justify the ends or do ends justify the means ?

Simple question.

broadway said:
Tell you what... You think about what you want to say to me. Not some random term you found in the dictionary; a real argument. I'll keep checking back.
You're just being obtuse...

NOBODY HAS A PROBLEM WITH THE SPIRIT OF THIS MOVEMENT!

got it ?
 
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

blr_p said:
Do means justify the ends or do ends justify the means ?
Democracy is not my concern. If is was working perfectly, then we wouldn't have reached this current situation. Why should anyone uphold a corrupt democracy? But the question isn't about democracy; it is about corruption. And situation dictates means. But in the process, you're asking us to uphold a corrupt democracy. I say NO.

blr_p said:
NOBODY HAS A PROBLEM WITH THE SPIRIT OF THIS MOVEMENT!
I never questioned you whether you have a problem with the spirit of this movement. I asked you what your stand is; for or against. But you insist that there are other stands besides these two stands. let me hear them.
 
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

I still dont understand what you guys are on about giving "all the power" to one person.
No one person will have ultimate power. You need to understand how things are drafted. One person even if all powerful, within judicial or extra judicial system that are proposed will think twice about misusing his position if there is transparency. But transparency alone is not enough, there needs to be a fear of ramifications for your action. In perfect world, it wont be needed. But it is needed in real world.

Lokpal's duty and scope is limited to corruption only. If there is no wrong doing by anyone, he has nothing to fear. Not to mention it will not be one way sentence. There will be a procedural inquiry and details of all cases will be a matter of public record as per the draft proposed at the moment. There will be equal chance given to the accused to defend himself and punishment will be handed down only if person is found guilty. Lokayukta like SC judge will not be single person handling all work load. There will be a team like any institution that will be working together.

Not to mention the draft proposed at the moment have equally strict punishment for those involved with Lokayukta office if they misuse their power, or show complacency.

This bill does not give undue power to anyone. This bill provides a infrastructure which a common man, opposition or ruling party or basically anyone can put forward his grievances regarding those in power or are elected in office and have them investigated without fear of political pressure or prejudice against him. This bill will also make people come forward and blow the whistle when someone witnesses a act of corruption rather than be a mute witness.

The scope of this bill and the proposed post of Lokayukta ends at that. He does not have any power to punish / investigate anyone for anything other than corruption charges.

With current system, these guys sitting at top has very little to fear unless they get caught in massive scams like spectrum scam and there is nowhere to hide. With this system, there will be provision for punishment for any act of corruption. It will not change things overnight, but 1 or 2 high profile cases will get the ball rolling. Fear of getting caught with deter some people. In the end it will only benefit the society.

Lokayukta will not be almighty untouchable person as it is made out to be by you guys. There will be provisions to remove him if he himself is found guilty of misusing his power. But that will not be at the mercy of ruling party or one single person anymore like it is now for most judicial establishments.

As far as bribery goes. We have reached to the bottom limit of the sinkhole. A honest man or businessman cannot start or run his business these days without bribery because without paying bribe, he cannot work. This has to stop somewhere and it began with RTI. It needs to get stronger and the next step is lokpal bill. After that the system needs to filter down to all government departments with stronger system at state and municipal levels.

Take a example of this, getting a simple VAT number for a local business. It should not cost a penny over the voluntary charges of Rs.5000 or 25000 (advanced tax for voluntary registration). Or Rs.500 is you are filing the VAT after turnover of 500000. Its very essential thing for any business doing retail or wholesale business. But you have to pay close to Rs.2k to get the damn form submitted and signed by the authority personal. Otherwise they will keep bumping you for days or will delay you to the end where you will get frustrated and end up paying whatever they want or will have to keep making multiple trips to ST office.
Same goes for every department I had to work with till date. Be it customs, import export dept or whatever. You name it, and there are barriers to face due to corruption. This is one of the reason why a common person thinks twice before starting his own business and is happy to work for a salary. One of the reasons why small industries have been routed out in recent past. If this is all to change, it has to start somewhere, and the reason you see such huge response to this movement is precisely this. Everyone out there supporting the bill on streets or TV might not understand the bill, but everyone understands and has faced corruption. This is why there is support for this. Not because of one person, or for one reason, but due to the fact that all of us have directly or indirectly have suffered due to this.

And then there are few who have benefited from corruption. I can understand why they would oppose this. ;)
As for the matter of fighting corruption on individual level, you cant in this world. Not in its current state and not without suffering heavily. And the concept of lack of individuality being the reason for our loss of independence and we being under british rule for such long is equally wrong. It was exactly opposite. We did not have pan India centralised power when British came in and they took advantage of exactly that. In ancient history when there was one powerful empire covering large portion of India, there was prosparity. British took benefit of all the infighting between various kingdoms, offered trade and military deals and negotiations with different rulers to suit their cause. The selfish attitude and mistrust about fellow Indian rulers are primary reason why we fell under british rule. We got independence when millions of people come together to fight for one cause. And it started and ended with act of dissent and demonstrations.
All these protests till now, and there has not been act of violence even with 1000s of people that are out there protesting. That tells you something about this movement.

I dont agree with all the claws (actually one claw of minimum punishment, I think minimum 10 years is too harsh ), but there is more good that can come out of this than bad. Real world has never been perfect in human history, it probably never will be, the question is, whether you take proper steps and calculated risk for the betterment of society or not.
Sorry for long post, probably my last post for today. And please stop personal attacks. That is the reason we usually dont allow political threads here. If you dont agree with others, at least have decency to read their comments and respect their point of view.
 
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