Anna Hazare's fast against corruption

[trigger]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

^^ in a nutshell, yeah this is it.. kudos for the explanation..

 

[broadway]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

@Shripad
Thanks but such a long synopsis was unnecessary.

To make the whole synopsis short, this lokpal authority will get the power to take its verdict to its logical conclusion.

 

[blr_p]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

Democracy is not my concern. If is was working perfectly, then we wouldn't have reached this current situation. Why should anyone uphold a corrupt democracy? But the question isn't about democracy; it is about corruption. And situation dictates means. But in the process, you're asking us to uphold a corrupt democracy. I say NO.

You did not answer the question.

Do means justify the ends or do the ends justify the means ?

That is the 3rd time i've asked that question btw.

I never questioned you whether you have a problem with the spirit of this movement. I asked you what your stand is; for or against. But you insist that there are other stands besides these two stands. let me hear them.

I support the spirit of the movment, its a celebration of our democracy. That i would think holds for everybody.

This for & against nonsense isn't applicable.

 

[broadway]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

You did not answer the question.
Do means justify the ends or do the ends justify the means ?
That is the 3rd time i've asked that question btw.

I did answer that question. It's just that the answer wasn't what you expected. Which is why you think that I didn't answer your question.

This for & against nonsense isn't applicable.

It is. And you already took a stand.

Else what are you talking about? Anna's background? Anna's methods?
It is a typical anti-anna campaign. It is not about corruption; it is about anna.
And that defines your stand regardless of whether you come out openly about your stand.

 

[rohan30186]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

@Shripad : Well explained yar...tooo good....But one thing I want to clarify max punishment is 10years and not the minimum..

 

[Shripad]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

@Shripad : Well explained yar...tooo good....But one thing I want to clarify max punishment is 10years and not the minimum..

Yes, thats as per government draft. The Civil body wanted minimum punishment of 10 years which I think is too harsh.

Government : 6months to 10 years. ( IMHO if they want to keep minimum this low, keep another clause which forbids the guilty party from holding any government post in the future. Or make minimum punishment little harsher at say 2 or 3 years. But definitely not 10 years minimum. That would be too cruel if its soft offense. )

 

[broadway]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

Corrupt officials in china get one quick shot in the back of the head. 10 years is nothing compared to that.

 

[Emperor]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

In past government thresh TADA ((THE) TERRORIST AND DISRUPTIVE ACTIVITIES (PREVENTION) ACT, 19871) after criticised on various counts.

Why don't govt allow "Jan Lokpal Bill" & if in features course they FOUND & PROVED it's been misused than.. just let it go the way TADA... where the problem is.

Now some one will say that shall govt. make laws/rules on DEMAND of any one like CIVIL SOCIETY? than my answer to them if they came out with STRONG SUPPORT from all part of India like Jan Lokpal Bill & CLEAN PERSON like Anna Hazare than why not.

 

[kippu]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

does anyone know the selection process of anna's lok pal committee as suggested by them?

 

[blr_p]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

I did answer that question. It's just that the answer wasn't what you expected. Which is why you think that I didn't answer your question.

You completely dodged it.

It is. And you already took a stand.

yes i have

Else what are you talking about? Anna's background? Anna's methods?

and in particular this fast to death method. Which gets compared with Gandhi. But gandhi was not living in a democratic country and did not have recourse to what we have today. That is the biggest fallacy with comparing hazare to gandhi.

Read what raman has to say.

ANNA HAZARE'S PROTEST AGAINST CORRUPTION | SAAG | Aug 14 2011

It is a typical anti-anna campaign. It is not about corruption; it is about anna.

See, this is what i mean by putting words into my mouth. your completely misrepresenting the position of those that dissent.

Its not about anna, its about this tactic of fast to death.

Unless you've got something substantial to add here i'm not going to debate this any more with you. There are other areas i'd like to go into.

 

[pepps3484]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

Everyone cribs about corruption when they face it, but when someone fights for the same, they attack him personally and that is what is happening. Saying Anna is corrupt or ramdev is corrupt, is not the solution of the problem. No one is supporting a person here, they are supporting a cause.

Politicians need to understand that if they have got the power , they have some responsibilities as well. They just can not ignore the public opinion by saying we are elected representatives of the junta and we have the right to make bills. You need to understand "Power comes with great responsibility" and the later part is missing from our politicians.

 

[kippu]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

okay the problem is that we are discussing this in circles, 2 points are merging into one here

a) anna and his janlok pal bill

b) the corruption problem ..... people who are coming out and supporting this movement is all due to the corruption and i totally support it too ,

but if you read his bill , it is riddled with problems , so i hope you guys read it for yourself and read what others are saying about it and then think about it

 

[pepps3484]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

does anyone know the selection process of anna's lok pal committee as suggested by them?

They themselves are not sure about the same and they agree that there should be enough debate on that. Also said that it will be totally transparent process and not like Govt's in which they will appoint Lokpal.

--- Updated Post - Automerged ---

but if you read his bill , it is riddled with problems , so i hope you guys read it for yourself and read what others are saying about it and then think about it

Nothing is perfect in this world my dear friend.....they do not say its perfect , but it is certainly better than Govt's (after some changes) ...atleast they are including the lower level corruption, MP's and whisleblower protection thing which is missing from Govt's bill.

 

[blr_p]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

I still dont understand what you guys are on about giving "all the power" to one person.

Its not about one person its about the lok pal commitee, an unelected body that has ultimate power over everybody.

You don't see a problem with this ?

There are ways of allwoing the lok pal to prosecute those found guilty by various commisions, this is the main goal. We have tons of committees, but all they can do is make recommendations in reports but cannot go after anyone. So this movement is trying to solve that problem.

Thing is, is only hazares way right or not. They claim it is, but there could be other ways, as well. which neither the govt or hazare are addressing.

No one person will have ultimate power. You need to understand how things are drafted. One person even if all powerful, within judicial or extra judicial system that are proposed will think twice about misusing his position if there is transparency. But transparency alone is not enough, there needs to be a fear of ramifications for your action. In perfect world, it wont be needed. But it is needed in real world.

I like subramaniam swamy's idea of independent prosecutors. he says the prevention of corruption act in section 5 allows the appointment of such. But its not been tested yet. the govt claims only govt lawyers can act as prosecutors.

In fact in one of his talks he says he does not see the point of lok pal because he has already had good responses & results by the judiciary already. So this guy is showing you can use the existing system and achieve acceptable results. Thats not to say lok pal is not required at all.

This bill does not give undue power to anyone. This bill provides a infrastructure which a common man, opposition or ruling party or basically anyone can put forward his grievances regarding those in power or are elected in office and have them investigated without fear of political pressure or prejudice against him. This bill will also make people come forward and blow the whistle when someone witnesses a act of corruption rather than be a mute witness.

The scope of this bill and the proposed post of Lokayukta ends at that. He does not have any power to punish / investigate anyone for anything other than corruption charges.

The problem is how to ensure it does not get abused for political reasons. You could stall govt with the right tactics isn't it. You can go after anyone and harass them with frivolous cases.

As far as bribery goes. We have reached to the bottom limit of the sinkhole. A honest man or businessman cannot start or run his business these days without bribery because without paying bribe, he cannot work. This has to stop somewhere and it began with RTI. It needs to get stronger and the next step is lokpal bill. After that the system needs to filter down to all government departments with stronger system at state and municipal levels.

The aim is to reduce corruption in govt, not society.

All these protests till now, and there has not been act of violence even with 1000s of people that are out there protesting. That tells you something about this movement.

Attempt to commit suicide is illegal for the very reason to stop fasts to death.

--- Updated Post - Automerged ---

My attention span is very limited and lines like these make it harder to continue reading.

There is a difference between resorting to and succumbing to. Not every middle class initiates these 'transactions'. Some people just have to pay a premium as without that the work will not get done at all. It would be unfair to classify all on the same boat.

Ok, so you object to the generalisation -- that the middle classes are by & large corrupt themselves and have little moral standing in supporting this bill.

The only ppl that can afford to give bribes are the moneyed ones. Or do the poor have to find money to get the job done as well ?

If you have the money then you can get things done faster, a poorer person will not be able to bribe for too long.

So what i'm asking is how prevalent is bribery in our society. To get an idea of whether the generalisation has some standing or not.

If you're buying property or trying to put your kids in school, i think it would be very difficult to avoid at some point or another.

 

[agantuk]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

i bribed a traffic cop yesterday , watch pirated tv shows , movies , earlier was even operating systems , show fraudlent bills to lower my taxes ....

i am totally against corruption

Can I reuse this on FB - with credits of course

 

[kippu]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

^^ you will only receive brickbats and unlikes but go right ahead

 

[broadway]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

You completely dodged it.

That's all you can say

yes i have

Yes...?
It is one of those two... or something else? Would you let us know what that stand is?

and in particular this fast to death method. Which gets compared with Gandhi. But gandhi was not living in a democratic country and did not have recourse to what we have today. That is the biggest fallacy with comparing hazare to gandhi.

Methods are not my concern. My concern is corruption.

Given that this is a non-violent movement, I agree that anna is a noble man. But being noble does not guarantee the ends. My concern is the end; not the means.

Read what raman has to say.

Does sustenance of the democratic setup solve the problem of corruption?
So raman isn't talking about corruption.

See, this is what i mean by putting words into my mouth. your completely misrepresenting the position of those that dissent.

I know what dissent is.
Those people on the street have no powers. The police beat and jail them on the orders of those who have power.
Fighting "power" is the real dissent. Taking a side with the powerful isn't dissent.
blr_p, the stand you took isn't the stand of rebellion. Anna is the real underdog.

Its not about anna, its about this tactic of fast to death.

It doesn't matter. The end matters. What you ask for is to uphold and respect this corrupt democracy.

Unless you've got something substantial to add here i'm not going to debate this any more with you. There are other areas i'd like to go into.

If it's about the issue of "corruption" then I can continue.

If it is about anna and his methods then let's discontinue. I won't reply to your posts in this thread if you agree to not reply to posts of mine.

--- Updated Post - Automerged ---

does anyone know the selection process of anna's lok pal committee as suggested by them?

Would you rather want jury duty where every tom dick and harry plays a part in the verdict?

 

[agantuk]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

^^ you will only receive brickbats and unlikes but go right ahead

Never mind My FB wall, my post

 

[blr_p]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

Methods are not my concern. My concern is corruption.

Yeah i hear you, but you've answered the question now, its ends that justify the means for you.

That means you would agree to anything, to achieve your aims.

This way of thinking does hazare any favours, it fact it strenghtens the hand of the dissenters.

Its too one tracked & uncompromising, this is why there has not been a successful lok pal act to date.

Given that this is a non-violent movement, I agree that anna is a noble man. But being noble does not guarantee the ends. My concern is the end; not the means.

The methods used are curucial if you desire to establish a justified, legitimate & enduring insititution. Think long term not short term.

This was gandhi's strength. am not seeing much of that wisdom in hazare's team if they resort to such tactics. They are shooting themselves in the foot.

Does sustenance of the democratic setup solve the problem of corruption?

you said you did not care about democracy earlier, thats another win for the dissenters.

Those that would sacrifce democracy for the sake of tackling corruption are not fit to represent such a movement. They would have no qualms tearing up the consitition to acheive their aims.

So raman isn't talking about corruption.

No he hasn't but he's justifed the govts actions pretty succintly there, as someone like you is partial to his views i would hope the point has sunk in by now.

I know what dissent is.
Those people on the street have no powers. The police beat and jail them on the orders of those who have power.
Fighting "power" is the real dissent. Taking a side with the powerful isn't dissent.
blr_p, the stand you took isn't the stand of rebellion. Anna is the real underdog.

Its not about taking the side of govt, its about how you fight. How you fight speaks volumes of who you are and what you represent.

If you lower yourself then where is your moral legitimacy in whatever institutions that are born out of your actions.

Would you rather want jury duty where every tom dick and harry plays a part in the verdict?

Irrelevant, we don't follow a jury model in our courts. We follow the british system.

 

[Shripad]

You can't go electing everybody in a committee by public vote. You find best people possible with best compromise reached in the end.

The fact is, there is nothing wrong in what they are demanding. A congress MP accepted that on tv. If that was the case, why didn't the government body came up with those points. Why are they trying to make things difficult when aim of this bill should be to make it easier. Why cant they accept the logical points put forward by the civic body. Specially when they themselves plan to go ahead with the lokpal bill, then why castrate it?

And don't even start with elected officials when our PM himself is not elected by people. If a technocrat can become a PM because he is qualified and respected to handle the job, why can't same role apply to other decision malling processes liked this committee. Specialty when government agreed to it.

Sent from my Motorola Atrix using Tapatalk Pro.