Anna Hazare's fast against corruption

[Spacescreamer]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

Now congress is behaving like Pakistan.. Conspiracy theories of the order - Congress hints at US hand in Anna Hazare protest

 

[Shripad]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

Now congress is behaving like Pakistan.. Conspiracy theories of the order - Congress hints at US hand in Anna Hazare protest

Should I make WTF face, LOL or ROTFLMAO that is the question.....................................

I just hope this comment is taken out of context.

 

[agantuk]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

@agantuk

why are you jumping the gun.First you need to get the lokpal made into a law.As with all it will slowly evolve.What we need is a deterrent for the crimes committed.Right now there is no fear of the law as the law is a tool used by the high and the mighty.

Err, how exactly I am jumping the gun? The Jan Lokpal does allow for reporting of corruption against the lower rung of employees also. That definitely means I can file a report on them. Did I get it wrong?

 

[rdst_1]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

To all the people who are saying that this is not the right way or we should not be breaking any rules, don't forget that one of the most important points in our struggle for freedom was the Dandi Yatra undertaken by Gandhiji to break the Salt Law.Also Simon Law wasn't allowed by Indians to be imposed by means of protest.

So when at a time when we were slaves, we could use the power of protest to stop a bill from being tabled, why can't we use the same method now to make the government impose a bill that we want.

Also everyone whose saying that it's not democratic should understand that our democracy that was described as of the people, by the people and for the people, isn't for the people anymore. So if the government doesn't do it's job properly, why can't the people take the power in their own hands, albeit, it is done in a proper manner. And i don't see any problem with the way that is being followed right now.Atleast we aren't doing things of such measure that military has to be deployed.Actually, there couldn't be a better way to do it as all we are asking is for amendments to be made in the current system so as to bring in more transparency and accountability.

 

[distro]

There is nothing to celebrate yet. Anna will start fast tomorrow. We are not sure whether Govt. Will Bend to our demands.

Secondly, I can't see a strict bill like Jan Lokpal Bill passed through our parliament. We must not forget that strict lokpal bill is against the very people who will pass it. Jaitley also said in similar lines, "introduce the janlokpal bill, we will debate, we may add things we may remove things".

With these kind of people I am not sure abt the future of strict lok pal bill. I sincerely hope we r not stuck with weak lokpal bill when it gets through lokpal bill. And then, even Anna can't do anything.

 

[Compiler]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

I m worried over his health .May god give him all the strength .

 

[Superbad]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

There is nothing to celebrate yet. Anna will start fast tomorrow. We are not sure whether Govt. Will Bend to our demands.

Secondly, I can't see a strict bill like Jan Lokpal Bill passed through our parliament. We must not forget that strict lokpal bill is against the very people who will pass it. Jaitley also said in similar lines, "introduce the janlokpal bill, we will debate, we may add things we may remove things".

With these kind of people I am not sure abt the future of strict lok pal bill. I sincerely hope we r not stuck with weak lokpal bill when it gets through lokpal bill. And then, even Anna can't do anything.

BTW anna has started his fast from the 16th

right or wrong the process of adding the jan lokpal bill should be done first.

the gripe for anna was that his version of the bill was not tabled in the parliament for the standing committee to consider.

all these bills are for modelling for better transparency for the future.

It was the RTI which anna was pushing for earlier which brought to light all the corrupt malpractices which take place in bureaucracy.

all we have to do is give it a chance.

 

[avi]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

I m worried over his health .May god give him all the strength .

I saw a video where his old doctor friend said that he takes glucose powder etc. So you don't worry saar

 

[Superbad]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

found this one

 

[Darthcoder]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

I would say that is even more reason to follow the rules as the legitimacy of this movement derives from holding the moral high ground. Its very easy to attack this movement otherwise, once legitimacy is lost it can be difficult to regain. It does not matter what Hazare's record has been upto now, he will be judged on his actions in this particualr case. Its a gamble for sure.

Just look at the reaction here, quite a few have opposed on these grounds, expand that up for the rest of the country and the reaction might be no different. You want as much support to keep the movement going as you can get not jeopardise it. Not give your opponents cause to spread FUD.
So you're saying this govt isn't legitimate then ? i dont know if you can make that assertion.

Because its not clear to me what the support for lok pal even is.

But you will get your chance to make that choice when elections are called.

Until then its important to keep this movement clean. The more support there is the better the chances are of getting a lok pal.

If the govt had refused outright to even consider lok pal, if we lived in a dictatoship then things would have been different but as it stands thats not the case. The issue is that the govts version isn't tight enough. Well, then negotiate those differences away.

I'm not in a position to comment on either of these bills yet as i'm still making my way through them, so don't know if there is any truth to either parties positions.

Your argument (in bold) makes no sense whatsoever.
Do you even read what you type?
The guy asked why should the rules be followed when the rules are bent for favoring those who are affluent i.e. one set of rules for the poor and one set of rules for the rich. And you suggest that it makes the case even stronger to follow the rules. Seriously?

Please dont post random musings just to live up to your reputation as the "nonconformist".

 

[broadway]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

the rule of law matters not to you. Ergo, you will do anything if it means prosecuting a corrupt democracy.

Not anything. In this case, I'm okay with a watchdog with powers.

Explain that one to me ?

Maybe you should explain to be my why you think democracy is gospel truth.

Push as much as you want but within the rules. Don't break them for the sake of a PR coup.

Every clampdown on 1x protest encourages a 2x protest. If congress refuses to pass the original lokpal then it should prepare for emergency.

they may not have intentions to abolish democracy but their actions amount to it

They are only doing what is required. Maybe you should question the govt for it's inactions on corruption which has forced the dissenters to bring such a predicament.

then go about it the right way. i also think we need something like this.

Like i said before, the govt is not going to hand over the keys to me and request me to lock them up.

As have i, but he's laid down the legal reasons for the govt to act as it did. if you still disagree then you believe the govt has no right to enforce its own laws. That would be an interesting position to be in.

Rules are irrelevant. Integrity matters. It's something which this govt doesn't have. Else none of this would have happened.

i mean just look at that bolded bit, and the joke is you said that with a straight face. no respect for the rule of law.
Just admit you want license to break laws to get your way.

In this case, I do not choose the side of democracy.
I choose the side of morality. I think following democratic practices will equate to sustaining this corrupt democracy and this corrupt govt. And that i think is adharma. It is immoral.

 

[bitsandpieces]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

Will it be that simple. I really am not sure how much rot the lokpal can fix, weather it will be a start or simple end up like another corrupt anti corruption committe, but in the end of the day, I am very sure that if you file a RTI, you will find everything has been spent in some manner.

What usually happens is, the govt buy stuff at ridiculous price and sell them at a loss. CWG saw the renting of so many stuff for a 45 day period at well over the retail price of the same.

Problem is, whenever the commitee has power, it will tend to misuse it as long as it knows it can get away with it. Happens almost every time. And if you have no discretion, you have no way you can do something.

Even in you daily life, you will see a whole lot of fake medical bill/rent agrement in IT companies, so why no at higher levels. The incentive to falsify is far higher there

^ Simple I should say if we have RTI with Jan Lokpal, it will be atleast easy to see how much funds are being diverted to their accounts.

Funds released by government for development in constituency subtracted by Funds used ( which you can get by filing RTI) = Funds in their Swiss bank accounts...

Also with the people filling complaints with proof they will track it.

But the biggest thing is punishing them.. If Kasab can appeal in Supreme court for mearcy Plea , Damn who knows where these Corrupt officials will end.

 

[blr_p]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

The guy asked why should the rules be followed when the rules are bent for favoring those who are affluent i.e. one set of rules for the poor and one set of rules for the rich.

So help me out here wiseguy..

An org that has no qualms breaking rules to get itself set up has as its stated objective -- wait for it -- to catch others that break the rules.

What legitimacy does such an org have ? bugger all

People defending such behaviour are the biggest enemies of such an org. I sure hope hazare has the wisdom not to allow ppl who think like this into his movement or be unduly influenced by them.

Unless of course the objective is to kill his movement, in which case i would agree this would be a good way to do it

Look, once you might get away with it, try it more times and the govt & the media will kill it for you. We can spend the next forty years waiting for another one. your choice.

Please dont post random musings just to live up to your reputation as the "nonconformist".

One that plays by the rules is a "nonconformist" ? :lol:

There is a time & place for radicals but this is neither the time nor the place.

and to those that do not like this present govt, understand that it still has legitimacy, that is why the opposition have not pushed as yet for a no confidence vote. In fact they're using this movement to test that, as far as i see it govt gave the answer yesterday. It remains a functioning govt.

yeah our system allows us to throw the govt out when enough think so

 

[vercetti]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

^^blr_p dude...couldn't make sense of what u wrote...

this thread is going to the dumps with most of the posts either too big or formed badly

NOM

 

[johnie1]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

I would say that is even more reason to follow the rules as the legitimacy of this movement derives from holding the moral high ground. Its very easy to attack this movement otherwise, once legitimacy is lost it can be difficult to regain. It does not matter what Hazare's record has been upto now, he will be judged on his actions in this particualr case. Its a gamble for sure.

This movement has had the higher moral ground until now.That is the reason whatever muck the congress has thrown has not stuck.They tried the same strategy with bushans and that also did not work.They did the same with ramdev and the muck stuck.Yes i agree with you that once the legitimacy has been lost then it will be very difficult to get it back again.
Just look at the reaction here, quite a few have opposed on these grounds, expand that up for the rest of the country and the reaction might be no different. You want as much support to keep the movement going as you can get not jeopardise it. Not give your opponents cause to spread FUD.
So you're saying this govt isn't legitimate then ? i dont know if you can make that assertion.

Because its not clear to me what the support for lok pal even is.

But you will get your chance to make that choice when elections are called.

Until then its important to keep this movement clean. The more support there is the better the chances are of getting a lok pal.

If the govt had refused outright to even consider lok pal, if we lived in a dictatoship then things would have been different but as it stands thats not the case. The issue is that the govts version isn't tight enough. Well, then negotiate those differences away.

I'm not in a position to comment on either of these bills yet as i'm still making my way through them, so don't know if there is any truth to either parties positions.

When this govt was elected then it was a legitimate one.Now when they have flouted all the norms of legitimacy then they have become illegitimate.Is it not true?.Look at this govt.There is Mr Pawar,Mr 15 Percent kamalnath(according to radia tapes)etc.The primeminister has even flouted the law.He says he is a resident of assam whereas he is a resident of delhi.So do you still think this govt is a legitimate one?.If you are sick dont you go to a doctor to get yourself cured or do you continue to be sick saying that once you were healthy and so i am ok.

Why is the govt so hesitant to bring in a strong lokpal bill?.Is not a strong lokpal bill in the interests of the people?.If so since the govt is formed by the people should it not implement the strong lokpal bill ?.(I know the fallacy you will point out is who are the people).So when the govt does not wish to follow the people's interest does not the govt become illegitimate?

The govt is very clever afterall it is headed by lawyers.If they would not have considered the lokpal bill even once that would have given the critics a handle to beat the govt with.Exactly the same allegations as you have levelled.ie a dictatorship etc.So they showed themselves as caring for bill and then at the last moment veered off the track hoping no one will notice or will not make so much noise.Well they were wrong.They say parliament is supreme saying it alone has the right to make laws.But what if the laws made do not reflect the people's views but that of the members ie the corrupt members.

Onto a slightly another topic.Sonia Gandhi is the defacto leader of this govt and also she is the head of the largest party in the govt.Has she ever given an interview?,interacted with the press?.So how can the public know what her views are?.Why no accountability to the people.If there is no accountability then is this really a democracy?.

 

[blr_p]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

The more i read the counters, the more convinced i become of my position. So thx for helping with that

When this govt was elected then it was a legitimate one.Now when they have flouted all the norms of legitimacy then they have become illegitimate.Is it not true?.Look at this govt.There is Mr Pawar,Mr 15 Percent kamalnath(according to radia tapes)etc.The primeminister has even flouted the law.He says he is a resident of assam whereas he is a resident of delhi.So do you still think this govt is a legitimate one?

Then get the opposition to go for a no confidence vote. Thats how the system works.

Why haven't they dont that yet, maybe, just maybe they are better at gauging support of the ppl then you are.

Why is the govt so hesitant to bring in a strong lokpal bill?

Will give you the answer when i FINISH reading & understanding both bills.

Is not a strong lokpal bill in the interests of the people?

The bigger question is feasible & viable. Can the LP they want perform the stated functions. If they can they become effective otherwise not. But i cant tell you this yet. I'm not ready.

If so since the govt is formed by the people should it not implement the strong lokpal bill ?.(I know the fallacy you will point out is who are the people).So when the govt does not wish to follow the people's interest does not the govt become illegitimate?

Tell me how much support the LP movement has ? i am unable to determine the strength of this movement and until that can be done then you cannot claim that it is wholy representative of the ppls wishes.

The govt is very clever afterall it is headed by lawyers.

What makes you think the LP movement doesn't have lawyers, they have quite a few on the team and even a supreme court lawyer.

Salman khurshid. the law mnister made it clear last night that if the govt had acted out of its remit then they would have immediately gone to the high court or supreme court and had the order quashed. Did the LP movement do this ? NO Therefore the govt was within its rights to act as it did.

If they would not have considered the lokpal bill even once that would have given the critics a handle to beat the govt with.Exactly the same allegations as you have levelled.ie a dictatorship etc.So they showed themselves as caring for bill and then at the last moment veered off the track hoping no one will notice or will not make so much noise.

I'm not sure on this bit, i can say that they failed to reach an agreement. That does not mean the fight is over, keep lobbying & protesting, all of these thigns are legal. There are many ways to legally protest in this country.

Well they were wrong.They say parliament is supreme saying it alone has the right to make laws.But what if the laws made do not reflect the people's views but that of the members ie the corrupt members.

The problem is not the laws, the problem is a lack of laws that allow prosecution.

Onto a slightly another topic.Sonia Gandhi is the defacto leader of this govt and also she is the head of the largest party in the govt.Has she ever given an interview?,interacted with the press?.So how can the public know what her views are?.Why no accountability to the people.If there is no accountability then is this really a democracy?.

She does not run the country, the PM does. Does the PM give interviews ? if he had to do that then he would not have time to be a PM.

So there are plenty of spokesppl to do it. I dont see any argument in this last quote of yours.

 

[m-jeri]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

Same was said about RTI, and look what happened. I have personally successfully used RTI twice till now to get results.

Same with this bill. With the scope of this bill and RTI already in place, the people which we elect can be held responsible and asked the questions. The combination of Lokpal and RTI can do wonders. When something becomes the matter of public record accessible to all and ability to question these people with obligation of response / explanation, it gives some chance for a common citizen.

------------------------------------ (just to make sure whatever posted below is not directed @ m-jeri , but some others who are questioning the role of Anna )

And people talking about who is Anna to ask for anything, he is a common citizen and activist. Every one of us has or should ideally have the right to ask questions and should be in a position to hold those we elect responsible for their actions. We should not have to wait for 5 years to get justice or change. This is what Lokpal is all about.

The Lokpal format proposed by Anna and other activists is strong enough to even punish the people involved in the process of fact finding, clerical work and people involved in lokpal itself if they themselves cheat or does not do their job on time. And includes all the people who previously could not be held responsible for their actions. At most, we could vote them out next time. But with lokpal bill they will have to pay for their crimes.

This is why this bill and it being presented correctly in front of the parliament is very important.
And do not go blabbering about parliament having the end say in all this. The bill and concept of lokpal is designed in a way that this division cannot have any interference from governing body. And it starts from the formation of the commitee to the election of lokpal. This is why government is even listning to him or having discussions with all these people.

Getting the bill passed is responsibility of the Parliament, but drafting the bill, finalizing the end form of the bill, and formation of lokayukta is suppose to be joint effort of government plus people like Anna who are chosen for their social work, social activity, their skills and their track record. This is why what this guy says is important and must be heard. He is part of the drafting committee.

I am sure those who are questioning this guy didnt even know these facts. He just didnt wake up on fine day and decided to protest against this. He is part of the drafting committee and is suppose to have equal say in what the bill looks like in the end. At least that was the original aim of this exercise until government backtracked and introduced its own version of the bill.

See. I am not against what your saying, or what lokpal stands for.

But really, our govt system is not like this. This can never happen. Its just cannot be. Its unprecedented.

What i been saying for years, i am going to say again.

Democracy destroyed this country. We only have power to elect the donkeys. But we cannot enact or create a rule.
Our people, country is too much corrupted, lazy and DIVIDED.

Do you even know how divided we actually are? Just becoz 100000 people who use online media support this doesnt mean ALL india is united.
I am sure that there are at least 1000000 people who doesn't even know whats happening for the anti corruption movement. and another 1000000
who doesnt know what this lokpal bill is. I AM SURE. India stands divided, religious, political, geographical. This where the corruption flourishes.
What do u seriously expect a bill going to work for you? The same govt, bureaucrats, civil servants has to enforce this. There, it will fail.

Again, I would love to see this implemented. But the political system, not the UPA, is too crooked for this to happen.

 

[Darthcoder]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

She does not run the country, the PM does. Does the PM give interviews ? if he had to do that then he would not have time to be a PM.

Ignorance is bliss

 

[Shripad]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

See. I am not against what your saying, or what lokpal stands for.

But really, our govt system is not like this. This can never happen. Its just cannot be. Its unprecedented.

What i been saying for years, i am going to say again.

Democracy destroyed this country. We only have power to elect the donkeys. But we cannot enact or create a rule.

Our people, country is too much corrupted, lazy and DIVIDED.

Do you even know how divided we actually are? Just becoz 100000 people who use online media support this doesnt mean ALL india is united.

I am sure that there are at least 1000000 people who doesn't even know whats happening for the anti corruption movement. and another 1000000

who doesnt know what this lokpal bill is. I AM SURE. India stands divided, religious, political, geographical. This where the corruption flourishes.

What do u seriously expect a bill going to work for you? The same govt, bureaucrats, civil servants has to enforce this. There, it will fail.

Again, I would love to see this implemented. But the political system, not the UPA, is too crooked for this to happen.

Even then I want this movement to continue as long as possible.

Lets see how long UPA is ready to stretch this without agreeing to key clauses. If they dont, I am sure this team wont let people and government forget about this. There is breaking point for everything. And dont underestimate how a movement like this can spread like an uncontrollable virus.

If all this is futile, this will at least make people think in next election. 3 years is long time, but still a fire can stay alive for decades. So what is 3 more years.

BJP were given a hiding in 2004 because people did not forget 2002. Otherwise economically and mostly in all other aspects there was not much to complain against in 2004. Still they were booted out. And we got RTI in 2005.

Congress was booted out in 1996 because people got tired of all the BS for such long period. Things like these play important role in next election.

Social movements against corrupt government like this are never a waste. They serve their purpose. Either immediately if government bends, or in log run when they are booted out.

And yeah, I am eternal hopeful. Maybe its a not ideal, but hope is never a bad thing

 

[blr_p]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

Ignorance is bliss

Tell that to Montek Singh Ahluwalia