Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.
Will do as you say, Mr. Tiwari
blr_p said:Tell that to Montek Singh Ahluwalia
Will do as you say, Mr. Tiwari
blr_p said:Tell that to Montek Singh Ahluwalia
rdst_1 said:And if so many people are supporting the bill, then i think that it is reason enough to pass this bill.
kippu said:really? maybe you should read and make an informed decision, maybe there are millions supporting , what abt the millions not supporting ?, they are not part of this country ?, shouldnt you listen to their voice? or is it whoever shouts loudest wins
Only one way to know for sure. Let "these" people come to the streets.kippu said:really? maybe you should read and make an informed decision, maybe there are millions supporting , what abt the millions not supporting ?
rdst_1 said:How is this any different than our current election system.The govt is elected by the people who vote, and not by the majority.So going by your logic,even a govt should only be formed if each and every citizen of India votes.
broadway said:Only one way to know for sure. Let "these" people come to the streets.
kippu said:congress will definitely not come to power next term , a) because of scams b) because of anti incumbency .....
what is the alternative , bjp and allies? , how do you think they are going to play out the lokpal , pass it without a hitch ...yea right!
kippu said:have to commend the marketing team of anna though ... brilliant, anyone know who it is?
Lord Nemesis said:Just out of curiosity, How many of you guy's and how many of those people involved in disruptive protests crying support for Anna Hazare (rather than Anti-corruption) have been sincere in paying your taxes and duties?
By sincere, I mean being sincere about your HRA claim, not showing fake LTA or medical claims, showing all your bank interest and Fixed Deposit interest earnings for tax deduction, showing all your other sources of income, always paying sales tax/VAT for stuff you buy and never buying from grey market, valuing anything you import correctly and paying duties for that.
correct, but this bill primarily applies to govt and not the common man. Plenty of common men get successfully prosecuted but we've yet to see a govt critter be prosecuted.rdst_1 said:@blr_p - See, i empathize with what you are saying, but only to a certain extent.You want to follow the rules and fight against corruption(correct me if i am wrong).
So, i deem that you won't have a problem if stronger rules are placed that improve the efficiency, transparency and accountability of not only the powerful but also the common man.
No, i do not have any problems with who formulates the bill. This party then has to negotiate with the govt. I want that process to be done in a legal way and not a coercive one. Not by breaking rules, but by working within the system. We have rights to protest etc, use all of that within the rules.rdst_1 said:The main problem that i gather from your posts is that you are against the formulation of the bill by the 'civil society' and the demand to get it passed by the Parliament as in your view that amounts to dictatorship.
ok, i don't know how many ppl support this bill. Therefore you require moral power to get it done. You need legitimacy. you need persuasion. if you have that then numbers may be less important but this by itself still isn't enough.rdst_1 said:I would have agreed with you if it was only one man who was supporting the bill, whereas that is not the case. Yes people may be less informed than they should be about this bill, however that doesn't take away their right to support what they think is the right bill that should be passed.And if so many people are supporting the bill, then i think that it is reason enough to pass this bill.
bill formulation isn't an issue. The issue is how you apply the pressurerdst_1 said:Just give thought to my reason here.Since we are the ones who elect the representatives who make the bill, how does it amount to dictatorship if we directly take part in the bill formulation by applying pressure on our elected representatives to pass a stronger bill(not the JanLokpal bill, but a better bill than what has been tabled by the govt.)
We have been mending away over 110+ amendments in just 64 years. If you ask me that is waaaay too much, the US has only had 30 constitutional amendments in its 200+ history. We obviously have no qualms in tinkering here & there.rdst_1 said:Such a thing has never happened before and is unconstitutional but the constitution is just 64 years old and it wasn't GOD who wrote it, but esteemed members of the 'civil society'.So just cause now we are democracy and have a constitution doesn't mean that the same can be repeated.Albeit, it gives us all the more reason and power to mend what's broken.
I am all in support of this provided its done in the right way. What you described is the spirit of the movement. I don't want that to be corrupted otherwise we might not get another chance for a very long time to come.rdst_1 said:The constitution gave the elected representatives right to impose laws and bills because at that time most of the people in the parliament were the freedom fighters and had the best interests of the nation at heart, something that is sorely amiss now.
As someone has rightly said, "Democracy is the best and worst form of government". What makes it worst is the indifference of the people and what it makes it the best is the active participation of the people of the society.
Shripad said:Most people here are too young to start participating in corruption themselves
Real world is harsh.
Most salaried people will be as honest as they can be as they have very little choice to avoid taxes these days.
Majority crowd here is now using S&S for imports where you cannot cheat customs. They ask for paypal invoice now if one is not included with your shipment.
Medical industry have tightened up last year after major insurance procedure overhaul that took place recently. And btw parallel import and grey market industry is perfectly legal. There is nothing legally wrong with it.
And this whole argument is void. There is no reason not to support the anti corruption movement regardless what you have done in past. The current system is totally broken. Even tax system is broken.
When VAT came, we were promised it will replace all other taxes. And what has happened? We here in Mumbai have to pay double tax even today in the form of VAT and on top of that Octroi.
Octroi was suppose to be banished, they promised it will be, and nothing happened and nothing will happen anytime soon from the looks of it. This kills the margins of a honest businessman as he has to compete not only with Mumbai dealers but everyone outside as well for the price in the modern era where logistics is no longer a big hurdle. You can order online these days easily from a seller from Delhi or Chennai who sells same thing at 5-6% lower cost than Mumbai seller. If Mumbai seller is to compete, he takes hit in his margins or cheats by maintaining stock outside mumbai and getting it in illegally without paying octroi. How can I call him a cheat knowing how thin margins he has to work on thanks to flawed tax structure.
Why is my city still not getting as much funds as it should from the amount of tax revenue generated from here?
And when this is happening we are facing multi billion rupee scams at the centre. Major chunk of that money is eaten by corrupt government officials.
I have seen to what sickening level the corruption can go. I have had pleasure and horror of witnessing it first hand when I voluntarily worked at a government hospital as an intern to gain some experience and to do whatever little I can for civic body. You do not want to know what kind of $#it happens even in hospitals. I have some horror stories that will leave most people speechless and disgusted.
Most people dont get to see the dirty side of corruption, what we face daily is nothing compared to what happens in the background. What I have stated here are just couple of things. The monster of corruption goes way beyond this and to the top.
A common man would not have to cheat in ideal world. Or even in a honest world.
But sheer amount of corruption we face is the reason there is this much support for this now. Most of the people are simply sick and tired of it and these protest became channel to show that anger and disappointment.
This notion of one has to be saint to even begin supporting a good thing is ridiculous. Mistakes are always tolerated in society, its when these things go out of control, then one fine day it irrupts like it has done.
Lord Nemesis said:Just out of curiosity, How many of you guy's and how many of those people involved in disruptive protests crying support for Anna Hazare (rather than Anti-corruption) have been sincere in paying your taxes and duties?
By sincere, I mean being sincere about your HRA claim, not showing fake LTA or medical claims, showing all your bank interest and Fixed Deposit interest earnings for tax deduction, showing all your other sources of income, always paying sales tax/VAT for stuff you buy and never buying from grey market, valuing anything you import correctly and paying duties for that.
If you have not been sincere in those things then know that corruption starts from you, not from the politicians and that you are just being hypocritical when you claim that you support Anna's anti corruption protests. If you want to fight corruption, the fight starts with you. Don't expect that you would be rid of corruption magically by blindly supporting what ever Anna does. If you have been sincere, then also you are still supporting a person who is trying to dictate his own will and whims on the govt and law and making demands that will more than likely going to increase corruption than decrease it. The very fast that he was able to black mail the law into releasing him and giving him permission to hold his fast publicly is in itself a display of corruption
you do not want that. you will gift the govt a victory on a plate if they can turn us against each otherbroadway said:Only one way to know for sure. Let "these" people come to the streets.
yepShripad said:Most people here are too young to start participating in corruption themselves
Real world is harsh.
Most salaried people will be as honest as they can be as they have very little choice to avoid taxes these days.
Majority crowd here is now using S&S for imports where you cannot cheat customs. They ask for paypal invoice now if one is not included with your shipment.
Medical industry have tightened up last year after major insurance procedure overhaul that took place recently. And btw parallel import and grey market industry is perfectly legal. There is nothing legally wrong with it.
Agree and if they fight the good fight they have my support. We need more accountability in govt. If they have made us all very accountable, now its their turn hyeah:Shripad said:And this whole argument is void. There is no reason not to support the anti corruption movement regardless what you have done in past.
Solution is simplify, simplify, simplify. Then there are fewer hacks for loopholes and its much easier to see them.Shripad said:The current system is totally broken. Even tax system is broken.When VAT came, we were promised it will replace all other taxes. And what has happened? We here in Mumbai have to pay double tax even today in the form of VAT and on top of that Octroi.
Because govt is very big & inefficient and costs a lot, we need smaller govt.Shripad said:Octroi was suppose to be banished, they promised it will be, and nothing happened and nothing will happen anytime soon from the looks of it. This kills the margins of a honest businessman as he has to compete not only with Mumbai dealers but everyone outside as well for the price in the modern era where logistics is no longer a big hurdle. You can order online these days easily from a seller from Delhi or Chennai who sells same thing at 5-6% lower cost than Mumbai seller. If Mumbai seller is to compete, he takes hit in his margins or cheats by maintaining stock outside mumbai and getting it in illegally without paying octroi. How can I call him a cheat knowing how thin margins he has to work on thanks to flawed tax structure.
There are two issues here, how does the tax & reward system work. If you generate more than another state are you saying the centre does not give you the same ? well thats another question in itself back to how the country was consituted.Shripad said:Why is my city still not getting as much funds as it should from the amount of tax revenue generated from here?
And when this is happening we are facing multi billion rupee scams at the centre. Major chunk of that money is eaten by corrupt government officials.
i believe you and these types of stories have tendency to develop into some sort of pissing contest, no matter how bad you think you've got it somebody has an even worse story.Shripad said:I have seen to what sickening level the corruption can go. I have had pleasure and horror of witnessing it first hand when I voluntarily worked at a government hospital as an intern to gain some experience and to do whatever little I can for civic body. You do not want to know what kind of $#it happens even in hospitals. I have some horror stories that will leave most people speechless and disgusted.
Most people dont get to see the dirty side of corruption, what we face daily is nothing compared to what happens in the background. What I have stated here are just couple of things. The monster of corruption goes way beyond this and to the top.
Think back to the 70s, 97% income tax for highest slab for the first half o the 70s, it dropped to 80% in the latter half. Just look at this nonsenseShripad said:A common man would not have to cheat in ideal world. Or even in a honest world.
And the aim should be to hold onto to those ppl and get more. not lessen it.Shripad said:But sheer amount of corruption we face is the reason there is this much support for this now. Most of the people are simply sick and tired of it and these protest became channel to show that anger and disappointment.
This notion of one has to be saint to even begin supporting a good thing is ridiculous. Mistakes are always tolerated in society, its when these things go out of control, then one fine day it irrupts like it has done.