Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.
Will do as you say, Mr. Tiwari
blr_p said:Tell that to Montek Singh Ahluwalia
Will do as you say, Mr. Tiwari
Anna Hazare's fast against corruption
- Thread starter Shripad
- Start date
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.
congress will definitely not come to power next term , a) because of scams b) because of anti incumbency .....
what is the alternative , bjp and allies? , how do you think they are going to play out the lokpal , pass it without a hitch ...yea right!
have to commend the marketing team of anna though ... brilliant, anyone know who it is?
congress will definitely not come to power next term , a) because of scams b) because of anti incumbency .....
what is the alternative , bjp and allies? , how do you think they are going to play out the lokpal , pass it without a hitch ...yea right!
have to commend the marketing team of anna though ... brilliant, anyone know who it is?
rdst_1
Skilled
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.
@blr_p - See, i empathize with what you are saying, but only to a certain extent.You want to follow the rules and fight against corruption(correct me if i am wrong).
So, i deem that you won't have a problem if stronger rules are placed that improve the efficiency, transparency and accountability of not only the powerful but also the common man.
The main problem that i gather from your posts is that you are against the formulation of the bill by the 'civil society' and the demand to get it passed by the Parliament as in your view that amounts to dictatorship. I would have agreed with you if it was only one man who was supporting the bill, whereas that is not the case. Yes people may be less informed than they should be about this bill, however that doesn't take away their right to support what they think is the right bill that should be passed.And if so many people are supporting the bill, then i think that it is reason enough to pass this bill.
Just give thought to my reason here.Since we are the ones who elect the representatives who make the bill, how does it amount to dictatorship if we directly take part in the bill formulation by applying pressure on our elected representatives to pass a stronger bill(not the JanLokpal bill, but a better bill than what has been tabled by the govt.)
Such a thing has never happened before and is unconstitutional but the constitution is just 64 years old and it wasn't GOD who wrote it, but esteemed members of the 'civil society'.So just cause now we are democracy and have a constitution doesn't mean that the same can be repeated.Albeit, it gives us all the more reason and power to mend what's broken.
The constitution gave the elected representatives right to impose laws and bills because at that time most of the people in the parliament were the freedom fighters and had the best interests of the nation at heart, something that is sorely amiss now.
As someone has rightly said, "Democracy is the best and worst form of government". What makes it worst is the indifference of the people and what it makes it the best is the active participation of the people of the society.
@blr_p - See, i empathize with what you are saying, but only to a certain extent.You want to follow the rules and fight against corruption(correct me if i am wrong).
So, i deem that you won't have a problem if stronger rules are placed that improve the efficiency, transparency and accountability of not only the powerful but also the common man.
The main problem that i gather from your posts is that you are against the formulation of the bill by the 'civil society' and the demand to get it passed by the Parliament as in your view that amounts to dictatorship. I would have agreed with you if it was only one man who was supporting the bill, whereas that is not the case. Yes people may be less informed than they should be about this bill, however that doesn't take away their right to support what they think is the right bill that should be passed.And if so many people are supporting the bill, then i think that it is reason enough to pass this bill.
Just give thought to my reason here.Since we are the ones who elect the representatives who make the bill, how does it amount to dictatorship if we directly take part in the bill formulation by applying pressure on our elected representatives to pass a stronger bill(not the JanLokpal bill, but a better bill than what has been tabled by the govt.)
Such a thing has never happened before and is unconstitutional but the constitution is just 64 years old and it wasn't GOD who wrote it, but esteemed members of the 'civil society'.So just cause now we are democracy and have a constitution doesn't mean that the same can be repeated.Albeit, it gives us all the more reason and power to mend what's broken.
The constitution gave the elected representatives right to impose laws and bills because at that time most of the people in the parliament were the freedom fighters and had the best interests of the nation at heart, something that is sorely amiss now.
As someone has rightly said, "Democracy is the best and worst form of government". What makes it worst is the indifference of the people and what it makes it the best is the active participation of the people of the society.
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.
really? maybe you should read and make an informed decision, maybe there are millions supporting , what abt the millions not supporting ?, they are not part of this country ?, shouldnt you listen to their voice? or is it whoever shouts loudest wins
rdst_1 said:
really? maybe you should read and make an informed decision, maybe there are millions supporting , what abt the millions not supporting ?, they are not part of this country ?, shouldnt you listen to their voice? or is it whoever shouts loudest wins
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.
I think its a sign of good things that the "ruling" govt is now scared to death about Anna's movt catching on to everyone in this country who wants to stand up against all the BS that is being continued, and propagated in the name of "kanoon".
JanLokpal bill is but of course a point of focus for anyone who comes to rule, because he will no longer remain the sole person in rule.
The lokpal and lokayukt will have powers to initiate action against anyone - be it ruling party or govt officer or the politician in office.
This will cause problem for the politicians because till now - our pseudo democracy has worked on the following basis:
1. public is too engrossed in its crappy life, trying to make ends meet. Those who have satisfied these goals then move towards more greedy goals of acquiring luxury
2. the legislature is selected by this same un-interested public.
3. the candidates for legislature is selected by the political parties based on nepotism, corruption or plain greasing the palms. And the potential to benefit the business communities.
4. Public hardly gives two hoots about all this, and either votes (like imbeciles) or doesn't vote. In both scenarios - its ultimately the candidate selected by the party who gets in.
5. if someone from public wishes to stand up - he will either have no visibility, or he gets eliminated (you guess what are the different means of eliminating a person from a race)
6. over a period of time, this system becomes like a custom or a tradition - and you know indians? Over importance to customs and traditions. So over a period of time, these pre-selected candidates (from political parties) get the DIVINE RIGHT TO RULE, of course bestowed upon by our ever so least-bothered-where-the-country-goes public.
7. the govt - which is a part of this legislature then installs a sense of corruption, which digs deeper to the lowest levels (where public actually interacts)
So today this is the "SYSTEM".
For any change you wish to make to the system, you have to get elected, and to get elected you need to be a party sycophant, and to be a party sycophant, you need to fall in line with the "patriarch" or the "matriarch" who has the DIVINE RIGHT TO RULE.
Jan LOKPAL can change all this, because if you are fed up with the system, you have an authority who is not under the "fake elected" legislature, or the clowns among them who form the govt. This authority can take the bull with its horns.
THIS is something which is not acceptable to the legislature + executive!
Now to all those, who say that protest has to be done by other means: can you please suggest the "OTHER MEANS"?
Those who say that this has to be brought in the parliament by the MPs, can you please give me FEW examples where the MPs have actually passed something for the country's good (and which doesn't benefit the MP/MLA clan in any way - direct or indirect)?
Can you give me ONE EXAMPLE where the MPs have initiated discussion on ANYTHING which makes them accountable, ANYTHING that takes action against those who misappropriate public funds etc.
Sadly a failed democracy is tightly knit organism that thrives on corruption.
Anything that is against this (corruption) will not sustain gas for long if you try to utilize the so called "democractically legal" ways.
In short its like this:
What happens when you go to a police station to lodge FIR against the SHO of that police station?
I think its a sign of good things that the "ruling" govt is now scared to death about Anna's movt catching on to everyone in this country who wants to stand up against all the BS that is being continued, and propagated in the name of "kanoon".
JanLokpal bill is but of course a point of focus for anyone who comes to rule, because he will no longer remain the sole person in rule.
The lokpal and lokayukt will have powers to initiate action against anyone - be it ruling party or govt officer or the politician in office.
This will cause problem for the politicians because till now - our pseudo democracy has worked on the following basis:
1. public is too engrossed in its crappy life, trying to make ends meet. Those who have satisfied these goals then move towards more greedy goals of acquiring luxury
2. the legislature is selected by this same un-interested public.
3. the candidates for legislature is selected by the political parties based on nepotism, corruption or plain greasing the palms. And the potential to benefit the business communities.
4. Public hardly gives two hoots about all this, and either votes (like imbeciles) or doesn't vote. In both scenarios - its ultimately the candidate selected by the party who gets in.
5. if someone from public wishes to stand up - he will either have no visibility, or he gets eliminated (you guess what are the different means of eliminating a person from a race)
6. over a period of time, this system becomes like a custom or a tradition - and you know indians? Over importance to customs and traditions. So over a period of time, these pre-selected candidates (from political parties) get the DIVINE RIGHT TO RULE, of course bestowed upon by our ever so least-bothered-where-the-country-goes public.
7. the govt - which is a part of this legislature then installs a sense of corruption, which digs deeper to the lowest levels (where public actually interacts)
So today this is the "SYSTEM".
For any change you wish to make to the system, you have to get elected, and to get elected you need to be a party sycophant, and to be a party sycophant, you need to fall in line with the "patriarch" or the "matriarch" who has the DIVINE RIGHT TO RULE.
Jan LOKPAL can change all this, because if you are fed up with the system, you have an authority who is not under the "fake elected" legislature, or the clowns among them who form the govt. This authority can take the bull with its horns.
THIS is something which is not acceptable to the legislature + executive!
Now to all those, who say that protest has to be done by other means: can you please suggest the "OTHER MEANS"?
Those who say that this has to be brought in the parliament by the MPs, can you please give me FEW examples where the MPs have actually passed something for the country's good (and which doesn't benefit the MP/MLA clan in any way - direct or indirect)?
Can you give me ONE EXAMPLE where the MPs have initiated discussion on ANYTHING which makes them accountable, ANYTHING that takes action against those who misappropriate public funds etc.
Sadly a failed democracy is tightly knit organism that thrives on corruption.
Anything that is against this (corruption) will not sustain gas for long if you try to utilize the so called "democractically legal" ways.
In short its like this:
What happens when you go to a police station to lodge FIR against the SHO of that police station?
rdst_1
Skilled
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.
How is this any different than our current election system.The govt is elected by the people who vote, and not by the majority.So going by your logic,even a govt should only be formed if each and every citizen of India votes.
kippu said:
How is this any different than our current election system.The govt is elected by the people who vote, and not by the majority.So going by your logic,even a govt should only be formed if each and every citizen of India votes.
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.
Just out of curiosity, How many of you guy's and how many of those people involved in disruptive protests crying support for Anna Hazare (rather than Anti-corruption) have been sincere in paying your taxes and duties?
By sincere, I mean being sincere about your HRA claim, not showing fake LTA or medical claims, showing all your bank interest and Fixed Deposit interest earnings for tax deduction, showing all your other sources of income, always paying sales tax/VAT for stuff you buy and never buying from grey market, valuing anything you import correctly and paying duties for that.
If you have not been sincere in those things then know that corruption starts from you, not from the politicians and that you are just being hypocritical when you claim that you support Anna's anti corruption protests. If you want to fight corruption, the fight starts with you. Don't expect that you would be rid of corruption magically by blindly supporting what ever Anna does. If you have been sincere, then also you are still supporting a person who is trying to dictate his own will and whims on the govt and law and making demands that will more than likely going to increase corruption than decrease it. The very fast that he was able to black mail the law into releasing him and giving him permission to hold his fast publicly is in itself a display of corruption
--- Updated Post - Automerged ---
You won't see them on the streets because the same sense that allowed them to see that Anna's whimsical demands are not going to do any good also enabled them see that creating a ruckus on the streets through disruptive protests is not going to help anyone.
Just out of curiosity, How many of you guy's and how many of those people involved in disruptive protests crying support for Anna Hazare (rather than Anti-corruption) have been sincere in paying your taxes and duties?
By sincere, I mean being sincere about your HRA claim, not showing fake LTA or medical claims, showing all your bank interest and Fixed Deposit interest earnings for tax deduction, showing all your other sources of income, always paying sales tax/VAT for stuff you buy and never buying from grey market, valuing anything you import correctly and paying duties for that.
If you have not been sincere in those things then know that corruption starts from you, not from the politicians and that you are just being hypocritical when you claim that you support Anna's anti corruption protests. If you want to fight corruption, the fight starts with you. Don't expect that you would be rid of corruption magically by blindly supporting what ever Anna does. If you have been sincere, then also you are still supporting a person who is trying to dictate his own will and whims on the govt and law and making demands that will more than likely going to increase corruption than decrease it. The very fast that he was able to black mail the law into releasing him and giving him permission to hold his fast publicly is in itself a display of corruption
--- Updated Post - Automerged ---
broadway said:
You won't see them on the streets because the same sense that allowed them to see that Anna's whimsical demands are not going to do any good also enabled them see that creating a ruckus on the streets through disruptive protests is not going to help anyone.
Emperor
Skilled
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.
Without the help of Majority NONE BILL will pass & if UPA set in Opposition still they will manage NOT TO PASS the bill looking at UPA's current mood.
Remember "VOTE FOR CASH" drama, if THEY WANT anything THEY will do ANYTHING.
Women's Reservation Bill - 33% reservation still pending ..
VANDE MAATARAM - To save our beloved Mother India small effort is enough to call her 1.21 billion children to help her.
kippu said:
Without the help of Majority NONE BILL will pass & if UPA set in Opposition still they will manage NOT TO PASS the bill looking at UPA's current mood.
Remember "VOTE FOR CASH" drama, if THEY WANT anything THEY will do ANYTHING.
Women's Reservation Bill - 33% reservation still pending ..
kippu said:
VANDE MAATARAM - To save our beloved Mother India small effort is enough to call her 1.21 billion children to help her.
Shripad
ex-Mod
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.
Most people here are too young to start participating in corruption themselves
Real world is harsh.
Most salaried people will be as honest as they can be as they have very little choice to avoid taxes these days.
Majority crowd here is now using S&S for imports where you cannot cheat customs. They ask for paypal invoice now if one is not included with your shipment.
Medical industry have tightened up last year after major insurance procedure overhaul that took place recently. And btw parallel import and grey market industry is perfectly legal. There is nothing legally wrong with it.
And this whole argument is void. There is no reason not to support the anti corruption movement regardless what you have done in past. The current system is totally broken. Even tax system is broken.
When VAT came, we were promised it will replace all other taxes. And what has happened? We here in Mumbai have to pay double tax even today in the form of VAT and on top of that Octroi.
Octroi was suppose to be banished, they promised it will be, and nothing happened and nothing will happen anytime soon from the looks of it. This kills the margins of a honest businessman as he has to compete not only with Mumbai dealers but everyone outside as well for the price in the modern era where logistics is no longer a big hurdle. You can order online these days easily from a seller from Delhi or Chennai who sells same thing at 5-6% lower cost than Mumbai seller. If Mumbai seller is to compete, he takes hit in his margins or cheats by maintaining stock outside mumbai and getting it in illegally without paying octroi. How can I call him a cheat knowing how thin margins he has to work on thanks to flawed tax structure.
Why is my city still not getting as much funds as it should from the amount of tax revenue generated from here?
And when this is happening we are facing multi billion rupee scams at the centre. Major chunk of that money is eaten by corrupt government officials.
I have seen to what sickening level the corruption can go. I have had pleasure and horror of witnessing it first hand when I voluntarily worked at a government hospital as an intern to gain some experience and to do whatever little I can for civic body. You do not want to know what kind of $#it happens even in hospitals. I have some horror stories that will leave most people speechless and disgusted.
Most people dont get to see the dirty side of corruption, what we face daily is nothing compared to what happens in the background. What I have stated here are just couple of things. The monster of corruption goes way beyond this and to the top.
A common man would not have to cheat in ideal world. Or even in a honest world.
But sheer amount of corruption we face is the reason there is this much support for this now. Most of the people are simply sick and tired of it and these protest became channel to show that anger and disappointment.
This notion of one has to be saint to even begin supporting a good thing is ridiculous. Mistakes are always tolerated in society, its when these things go out of control, then one fine day it irrupts like it has done.
Most people here are too young to start participating in corruption themselves
Real world is harsh.
Most salaried people will be as honest as they can be as they have very little choice to avoid taxes these days.
Majority crowd here is now using S&S for imports where you cannot cheat customs. They ask for paypal invoice now if one is not included with your shipment.
Medical industry have tightened up last year after major insurance procedure overhaul that took place recently. And btw parallel import and grey market industry is perfectly legal. There is nothing legally wrong with it.
And this whole argument is void. There is no reason not to support the anti corruption movement regardless what you have done in past. The current system is totally broken. Even tax system is broken.
When VAT came, we were promised it will replace all other taxes. And what has happened? We here in Mumbai have to pay double tax even today in the form of VAT and on top of that Octroi.
Octroi was suppose to be banished, they promised it will be, and nothing happened and nothing will happen anytime soon from the looks of it. This kills the margins of a honest businessman as he has to compete not only with Mumbai dealers but everyone outside as well for the price in the modern era where logistics is no longer a big hurdle. You can order online these days easily from a seller from Delhi or Chennai who sells same thing at 5-6% lower cost than Mumbai seller. If Mumbai seller is to compete, he takes hit in his margins or cheats by maintaining stock outside mumbai and getting it in illegally without paying octroi. How can I call him a cheat knowing how thin margins he has to work on thanks to flawed tax structure.
Why is my city still not getting as much funds as it should from the amount of tax revenue generated from here?
And when this is happening we are facing multi billion rupee scams at the centre. Major chunk of that money is eaten by corrupt government officials.
I have seen to what sickening level the corruption can go. I have had pleasure and horror of witnessing it first hand when I voluntarily worked at a government hospital as an intern to gain some experience and to do whatever little I can for civic body. You do not want to know what kind of $#it happens even in hospitals. I have some horror stories that will leave most people speechless and disgusted.
Most people dont get to see the dirty side of corruption, what we face daily is nothing compared to what happens in the background. What I have stated here are just couple of things. The monster of corruption goes way beyond this and to the top.
A common man would not have to cheat in ideal world. Or even in a honest world.
But sheer amount of corruption we face is the reason there is this much support for this now. Most of the people are simply sick and tired of it and these protest became channel to show that anger and disappointment.
This notion of one has to be saint to even begin supporting a good thing is ridiculous. Mistakes are always tolerated in society, its when these things go out of control, then one fine day it irrupts like it has done.
vercetti
Skilled
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.
That's one of the reason's why we want the bill or strict rules.
I/We don't pay taxes or try to evade them as we know we can get away with it Once we have more strict rules we will be compelled to confirm to them.
When I file tax return in UK, Australia and NZ; i am utmost careful and file with 100% accuracy. I do the same for India but in other countries; i double and triple check and make sure all details are correct
That's one of the reason's why we want the bill or strict rules.
I/We don't pay taxes or try to evade them as we know we can get away with it
Once we have more strict rules we will be compelled to confirm to them.When I file tax return in UK, Australia and NZ; i am utmost careful and file with 100% accuracy. I do the same for India but in other countries; i double and triple check and make sure all details are correct
Lord Nemesis said:Just out of curiosity, How many of you guy's and how many of those people involved in disruptive protests crying support for Anna Hazare (rather than Anti-corruption) have been sincere in paying your taxes and duties?
By sincere, I mean being sincere about your HRA claim, not showing fake LTA or medical claims, showing all your bank interest and Fixed Deposit interest earnings for tax deduction, showing all your other sources of income, always paying sales tax/VAT for stuff you buy and never buying from grey market, valuing anything you import correctly and paying duties for that.
distro
Adept
http://t.co/cLBq7lN Anna's video shot by Kiran Bedi from Tihar Jail. Good to see him in good health.
blr_p
Skilled
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.
You have to jump through the hoops to achieve your goal. Otherwise we are setting ourselves up for a fall and allowing govt to be interfered with by any party that chooses to do so. How govt behaves in the following months will be critical to the well being of this country. Do they find a backbone or do they cave in. if they cave in the opposition will finish them off with a no-confidence vote. They are waiting in the shadows to do just that. But i don't think this govt will cave in. Look, if they arrest hazare on a wrongful charge the courts will free him. They won't make that mistake because then they will give hazare an even bigger win.
The bill hasn't even been tabled in govt so its not a lost cause as of yet. Otherwise if anyone thinks its a lost cause tell me why ? m-jeri's post is a little bit too fatalistic & cynical. You would think this is our destiny for ever, not true. We've certainly improved our lot in the last twenty years so its not like things never change is it.
correct, but this bill primarily applies to govt and not the common man. Plenty of common men get successfully prosecuted but we've yet to see a govt critter be prosecuted.rdst_1 said:
No, i do not have any problems with who formulates the bill. This party then has to negotiate with the govt. I want that process to be done in a legal way and not a coercive one. Not by breaking rules, but by working within the system. We have rights to protest etc, use all of that within the rules.rdst_1 said:
ok, i don't know how many ppl support this bill. Therefore you require moral power to get it done. You need legitimacy. you need persuasion. if you have that then numbers may be less important but this by itself still isn't enough.rdst_1 said:
You have to jump through the hoops to achieve your goal. Otherwise we are setting ourselves up for a fall and allowing govt to be interfered with by any party that chooses to do so. How govt behaves in the following months will be critical to the well being of this country. Do they find a backbone or do they cave in. if they cave in the opposition will finish them off with a no-confidence vote. They are waiting in the shadows to do just that. But i don't think this govt will cave in. Look, if they arrest hazare on a wrongful charge the courts will free him. They won't make that mistake because then they will give hazare an even bigger win.
The bill hasn't even been tabled in govt so its not a lost cause as of yet. Otherwise if anyone thinks its a lost cause tell me why ? m-jeri's post is a little bit too fatalistic & cynical. You would think this is our destiny for ever, not true. We've certainly improved our lot in the last twenty years so its not like things never change is it.
bill formulation isn't an issue. The issue is how you apply the pressurerdst_1 said:
We have been mending away over 110+ amendments in just 64 years. If you ask me that is waaaay too much, the US has only had 30 constitutional amendments in its 200+ history. We obviously have no qualms in tinkering here & there.rdst_1 said:
I am all in support of this provided its done in the right way. What you described is the spirit of the movement. I don't want that to be corrupted otherwise we might not get another chance for a very long time to come.rdst_1 said:
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.
I completely agree with you on this. All the people here in this thread who are thinking that the protest or the end result of it is more of a joke ( or "timepass" as one of my senior colleagues refer to it ) should understand the aim of all this. Corruption is bad. It doesn't matter what one did in the past or what one prefers. If, for once in India, people are fighting for a cause that may even come back and bite you in the ass (refer the hospital stuff Shripad mentioned) please support it in any way you can. Even if it means forwarding an email.
PS: For people who are still in the dark about what this whole issue is about, I would really, really recommend you spending 5 minutes going through the links given below --
http://www.indiaagainstcorruption.org/docs/Jan_Lokpal_Bill-A-Detailed_Analysis.doc
Presentation1.ppt - File Shared from Box.net
Shripad said:Most people here are too young to start participating in corruption themselves
Real world is harsh.
Most salaried people will be as honest as they can be as they have very little choice to avoid taxes these days.
Majority crowd here is now using S&S for imports where you cannot cheat customs. They ask for paypal invoice now if one is not included with your shipment.
Medical industry have tightened up last year after major insurance procedure overhaul that took place recently. And btw parallel import and grey market industry is perfectly legal. There is nothing legally wrong with it.
And this whole argument is void. There is no reason not to support the anti corruption movement regardless what you have done in past. The current system is totally broken. Even tax system is broken.
When VAT came, we were promised it will replace all other taxes. And what has happened? We here in Mumbai have to pay double tax even today in the form of VAT and on top of that Octroi.
Octroi was suppose to be banished, they promised it will be, and nothing happened and nothing will happen anytime soon from the looks of it. This kills the margins of a honest businessman as he has to compete not only with Mumbai dealers but everyone outside as well for the price in the modern era where logistics is no longer a big hurdle. You can order online these days easily from a seller from Delhi or Chennai who sells same thing at 5-6% lower cost than Mumbai seller. If Mumbai seller is to compete, he takes hit in his margins or cheats by maintaining stock outside mumbai and getting it in illegally without paying octroi. How can I call him a cheat knowing how thin margins he has to work on thanks to flawed tax structure.
Why is my city still not getting as much funds as it should from the amount of tax revenue generated from here?
And when this is happening we are facing multi billion rupee scams at the centre. Major chunk of that money is eaten by corrupt government officials.
I have seen to what sickening level the corruption can go. I have had pleasure and horror of witnessing it first hand when I voluntarily worked at a government hospital as an intern to gain some experience and to do whatever little I can for civic body. You do not want to know what kind of $#it happens even in hospitals. I have some horror stories that will leave most people speechless and disgusted.
Most people dont get to see the dirty side of corruption, what we face daily is nothing compared to what happens in the background. What I have stated here are just couple of things. The monster of corruption goes way beyond this and to the top.
A common man would not have to cheat in ideal world. Or even in a honest world.
But sheer amount of corruption we face is the reason there is this much support for this now. Most of the people are simply sick and tired of it and these protest became channel to show that anger and disappointment.
This notion of one has to be saint to even begin supporting a good thing is ridiculous. Mistakes are always tolerated in society, its when these things go out of control, then one fine day it irrupts like it has done.
I completely agree with you on this. All the people here in this thread who are thinking that the protest or the end result of it is more of a joke ( or "timepass" as one of my senior colleagues refer to it
) should understand the aim of all this. Corruption is bad. It doesn't matter what one did in the past or what one prefers. If, for once in India, people are fighting for a cause that may even come back and bite you in the ass (refer the hospital stuff Shripad mentioned) please support it in any way you can. Even if it means forwarding an email.PS: For people who are still in the dark about what this whole issue is about, I would really, really recommend you spending 5 minutes going through the links given below --
http://www.indiaagainstcorruption.org/docs/Jan_Lokpal_Bill-A-Detailed_Analysis.doc
Presentation1.ppt - File Shared from Box.net
rdst_1
Skilled
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.
I have and even my father has stood up against corruption on every occasion we could.My father even has a few cases pending in the court against his employees that resulted in the securing of the job of 4th class employees in his bank, who were earlier just on contract.The lawyer against him was none other than Kapil Sibal.
But you should also understand how hard it is to take the moral highground as one is being harrassed for no fault of his own.I nearly missed my semester examinations because my college refused to let me sit as i was making them follow the govt instruction of charging fees after the start of the semester.
Also being corrupt and facing corruption are two different things.If the first doesn't exist,neither will the second.Not everyone is strong everytime and sometimes it is one time too many.
Lord Nemesis said:Just out of curiosity, How many of you guy's and how many of those people involved in disruptive protests crying support for Anna Hazare (rather than Anti-corruption) have been sincere in paying your taxes and duties?
By sincere, I mean being sincere about your HRA claim, not showing fake LTA or medical claims, showing all your bank interest and Fixed Deposit interest earnings for tax deduction, showing all your other sources of income, always paying sales tax/VAT for stuff you buy and never buying from grey market, valuing anything you import correctly and paying duties for that.
If you have not been sincere in those things then know that corruption starts from you, not from the politicians and that you are just being hypocritical when you claim that you support Anna's anti corruption protests. If you want to fight corruption, the fight starts with you. Don't expect that you would be rid of corruption magically by blindly supporting what ever Anna does. If you have been sincere, then also you are still supporting a person who is trying to dictate his own will and whims on the govt and law and making demands that will more than likely going to increase corruption than decrease it. The very fast that he was able to black mail the law into releasing him and giving him permission to hold his fast publicly is in itself a display of corruption
I have and even my father has stood up against corruption on every occasion we could.My father even has a few cases pending in the court against his employees that resulted in the securing of the job of 4th class employees in his bank, who were earlier just on contract.The lawyer against him was none other than Kapil Sibal.
But you should also understand how hard it is to take the moral highground as one is being harrassed for no fault of his own.I nearly missed my semester examinations because my college refused to let me sit as i was making them follow the govt instruction of charging fees after the start of the semester.
Also being corrupt and facing corruption are two different things.If the first doesn't exist,neither will the second.Not everyone is strong everytime and sometimes it is one time too many.
blr_p
Skilled
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.
Be very careful here.
This govt has legitimacy and it has support unlike what a lot of ppl claim here. it has lots of dirty tricks up its sleeve just like any govt.
This has to be an intelligent battle and you must hold the moral high ground at all costs.
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hyeah:
Historic income tax rates in india
Tell me in such an environment which sane person will not under declare his income at this height of extortion. ontop of that lots of very restrictive rules. So we created this monster of corruption by all these stupid rules. Corruption began in 1970.
We saw some light when we went bust in 1991. That process stalled because ppl were afraid to go further. We have to do it but which govt will risk 8% growth.
you do not want that. you will gift the govt a victory on a plate if they can turn us against each otherbroadway said:
Be very careful here.
This govt has legitimacy and it has support unlike what a lot of ppl claim here. it has lots of dirty tricks up its sleeve just like any govt.
This has to be an intelligent battle and you must hold the moral high ground at all costs.
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yepShripad said:Most people here are too young to start participating in corruption themselves
Real world is harsh.
Most salaried people will be as honest as they can be as they have very little choice to avoid taxes these days.
Majority crowd here is now using S&S for imports where you cannot cheat customs. They ask for paypal invoice now if one is not included with your shipment.
Medical industry have tightened up last year after major insurance procedure overhaul that took place recently. And btw parallel import and grey market industry is perfectly legal. There is nothing legally wrong with it.
Agree and if they fight the good fight they have my support. We need more accountability in govt. If they have made us all very accountable, now its their turnShripad said:
hyeah:Solution is simplify, simplify, simplify. Then there are fewer hacks for loopholes and its much easier to see them.Shripad said:
Because govt is very big & inefficient and costs a lot, we need smaller govt.Shripad said:
There are two issues here, how does the tax & reward system work. If you generate more than another state are you saying the centre does not give you the same ? well thats another question in itself back to how the country was consituted.Shripad said:
i believe you and these types of stories have tendency to develop into some sort of pissing contest, no matter how bad you think you've got it somebody has an even worse story.Shripad said:
Think back to the 70s, 97% income tax for highest slab for the first half o the 70s, it dropped to 80% in the latter half. Just look at this nonsenseShripad said:
Historic income tax rates in india
Tell me in such an environment which sane person will not under declare his income at this height of extortion. ontop of that lots of very restrictive rules. So we created this monster of corruption by all these stupid rules. Corruption began in 1970.
We saw some light when we went bust in 1991. That process stalled because ppl were afraid to go further. We have to do it but which govt will risk 8% growth.
And the aim should be to hold onto to those ppl and get more. not lessen it.Shripad said:
rdst_1
Skilled
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.
@blr_p
I agree with you on a lot of terms actually.Especially the governance should be simplified and decentralized, just as Gandhiji wanted.This will really help curb corruption by following the rules already laid. Coz if the people who take the decisions are local and in front of you, it is easy to hold them to account for their corruption.That would certainly be the best way to go about if you want to eliminate corruption.
@blr_p
I agree with you on a lot of terms actually.Especially the governance should be simplified and decentralized, just as Gandhiji wanted.This will really help curb corruption by following the rules already laid. Coz if the people who take the decisions are local and in front of you, it is easy to hold them to account for their corruption.That would certainly be the best way to go about if you want to eliminate corruption.