Anna Hazare's fast against corruption

[chiron]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

You speak as if the politicians are somehow disconnected from the society. Politicians are a reflection of the people who elected them. Expecting them to be better than the society that elected them is absolutely ridiculous.

Also its wrong to think that politicians are at the top because they make the rules. Its the people who are at the top, because they elect the politicians.

People need to be taught to think and educated on how the country actually runs. Most seem oblivious to the consequences of their actions. If you are in the minority that understand this then please go ahead and educate your circle/immediate society. Honesty and diligence need to be ingrained in our society. Ensure your kids understand this. The transformation needs to happen at the ground level. It will take a while. It will be way tougher than getting this lokpal bill passed. But its also something that will last a lot longer.

People complain about bad roads and poor infrastructure, while continuing to evade taxes.

People complain about bad politicians, while continuing to abstain from voting or voting for the wrong person.

They dont seem to realise that its their own actions biting them in the a$$. This is the dagger you talk of. People who dont understand this are ignorant retards. Its the duty of non-retards to help fellow citizens.

The lokpal might be effective for a few years, but will become just as dysfunctional as the rest of the system (legislature+judiciary+enforcement). Why do we need a 4th organisation to add to the confusion? The functioning of the lokpal overlaps judiciary and enforcement. Who will resolve differences?

And one more important question - people want to extend the reach of lokpal to PMO. Why dont they want to extend it in the other direction to investigate the common man who pays/offers the bribe? Can a govt. officer complain to lokpal if a person offers bribe (say to get work done faster or for approving bogus documents)?

Individuals will always prioritize their self interest. The idea of greater good is something that has to be imposed on individuals by society in order to flourish and that becomes easier through proper governance. That is just theory but the current reality in India is that it is almost impossible to prosecute our elected officials when they are found to act in their self interest even though every decision they make has huge impact on society (which is not the case of a common citizen or even govt employee). Whether Lokpal(nobody is denying that it is attacking the problem than the cause) is indeed the answer or there are other alternatives may be a worthwhile discussion but your idea people bettering themselves with no visible incentive is simply not realistic. After all if people could do that then there would be no need for government, laws, countries, money or anything of that sort and we would all live happily ever after.

 

[Lord Nemesis]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

There are several things to consider here and people seem to be mixing and mashing every thing.

1. Govt's Lokpal Bill Draft

There is no other way to describe it as but a joke and a slap in the name of a bill.

2. Team Anna's version of the bill

Its an even bigger joke and an even bigger slap. Centralization of power will simply relocate corruption and most possibly increase its magnitude. Anna's demands would result in a bunch of people with supreme control over every thing. Remember that politicians are also common people and if they can get corrupted, so can the people in a Lokpal group. No matter how they say they have safe guards, it simply doesn't seem enough. How are the members going to be elected? How do they sure that there is no corruption involved in the election process. Even common people are corrupt, so even a vote through elections will not ensure that. What if the members go corrupt after election. How can the people expect to make them answerable if the body holds such absolute power. Such a system is very prone to abuse and it would be really hand to make them answerable after giving them absolute power. The only way out would be a la dictatorship where people take to the streets resort to violence.

3. Fight against corruption

Fight against corruption starts only when we start accepting that that we are part of the problem rather than self righteously assuming we are outside it and putting all the blame on the politicians. Blindly crying support for a stubborn troublemaker out trying to impose his own whims is not going to help. Yes, the change has to start from the bottom level, giving supreme authority to a single body and getting a few politicians punished isn't going to help much in the long run. Believe me, my dad had already tried the top down approach to stopping corruption at a small scale and he didn't get a lot of success. If it didn't work well even at such a small scale, there is no hope that it will work at a country wide scale. Its like a fishing net that can only catch large fish while all the small fish escape. The large fish are very few in number while the small fish will be numerous. People only tend to talk about the blank money that politicians amassed in their swiss banks, but I am willing to bet that if we calculate all the money that common folk should be paying towards taxes, but not paying, all that black money in the swiss banks would seem like a minuscule amount before that. Corruption exists at all levels and the corruption at the top is only a replica of the corruption at the bottom with the only difference being the scale of figures involved. While the common folk amass 100's, 1000's and 10000's, the politicians amass cores. that scale alone doesn't make it right to put all the blame on politicians.

4. Anna Hazare

My own personal opinion of him is that he is a stubborn old guy who wants to play God on our constitution by imposing his whims forcefully. He doesn't believe in democracy and there doesn't seem to be any indication that he ever believed in it. He has no respect for the law which I guess is clear from his actions. If he wanted to protest, he could have done it from his home, but instead he want to protest at a public place whose end result would be disruptive to a lot of people and he continued his stubbornness even when he didn't get permission. If he had any respect for the law, he would not have respected the decision or at least took it to the courts if he felt it was suppressing his freedom. When he was preemptively arrested which I think is entirely legal (trouble makers are often arrested preemptively and its apt in this case since already showed his intentions before hand), he blackmailed the govt into meeting his demands and he intends to force his other whims as well in a similar manner.

He has strong fascist views and he believes in centralization of power with a person or person(s) holding supreme authority over everything else. This is the main reason that he is not interested in politics. He has no interest in the democratic form adopted by India. He may not want power himself, but he does want power to be vested in the hands of a handful of people with a model that would be close to dictatorship. such a form of power can often do wonders for progressing the country (Like how Germany progressed during Hitler's rule) , but there are the evils as well that such a form brings. IMO what he is fighting against is not corruption, but democracy. If his whimsical demands are met due to pressure, it would be biggest defeat for democracy as a from of govt any where in the world.

In many ways he is himself a center of corruption as well. While he himself may not be directly involved, people like him and protests like those thrive corruption. There would be many making money out of his ruckus. His trusts attract a lot money most of which can only be black money. Donations are a popular cover for converting blank money. No one knows how much money he gets and where it goes. If they themselves show that a fasting protest cost them crore's of rupees then I am not about going to believe there is no corruption around him.

 

[broadway]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

cognitive dissonance
 
* anxiety that results from simultaneously holding contradictory or otherwise incompatible attitudes, beliefs, or the like, as when one likes a person but disapproves strongly of one of his or her habits.

* psychol an uncomfortable mental state resulting from conflicting cognitions; usually resolved by changing some of the cognitions

* psychological conflict resulting from simultaneously held incongruous beliefs and attitudes (as a fondness for smoking and a belief that it is harmful) or (Taking a stand against corruption while ridiculing any anti-corruption campaigns that are taking place)

 

[blr_p]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

1. Govt's Lokpal Bill Draft

There is no other way to describe it as but a joke and a slap in the name of a bill.

Tell us why you think its a joke

[2. Team Anna's version of the bill

Its an even bigger joke and an even bigger slap. Centralization of power will simply relocate corruption and most possibly increase its magnitude. Anna's demands would result in a bunch of people with supreme control over every thing. Remember that politicians are also common people and if they can get corrupted, so can the people in a Lokpal group. No matter how they say they have safe guards, it simply doesn't seem enough. How are the members going to be elected? How do they sure that there is no corruption involved in the election process. Even common people are corrupt, so even a vote through elections will not ensure that. What if the members go corrupt after election. How can the people expect to make them answerable if the body holds such absolute power. Such a system is very prone to abuse and it would be really hand to make them answerable after giving them absolute power. The only way out would be a la dictatorship where people take to the streets resort to violence.

You could say this is an objection to a lok pal as a concept in general. From what you've said i can conclude you do not agree with the concept of a lok pal at all. i'm still half way.

my curent objection is to the wide ranging powers that will make the lok pal not much more effective than the current courts system. if the idea is to have an effective system then the scope of the JLP has to be reduced.

3. Fight against corruption

Fight against corruption starts only when we start accepting that that we are part of the problem rather than self righteously assuming we are outside it and putting all the blame on the politicians. Blindly crying support for a stubborn troublemaker out trying to impose his own whims is not going to help. Yes, the change has to start from the bottom level, giving supreme authority to a single body and getting a few politicians punished isn't going to help much in the long run. Believe me, my dad had already tried the top down approach to stopping corruption at a small scale and he didn't get a lot of success. If it didn't work well even at such a small scale, there is no hope that it will work at a country wide scale. Its like a fishing net that can only catch large fish while all the small fish escape. The large fish are very few in number while the small fish will be numerous. People only tend to talk about the blank money that politicians amassed in their swiss banks, but I am willing to bet that if we calculate all the money that common folk should be paying towards taxes, but not paying, all that black money in the swiss banks would seem like a minuscule amount before that. Corruption exists at all levels and the corruption at the top is only a replica of the corruption at the bottom with the only difference being the scale of figures involved. While the common folk amass 100's, 1000's and 10000's, the politicians amass cores. that scale alone doesn't make it right to put all the blame on politicians.

So this is basically the same, an objection to the idea of a lok pal as an effective org to deal with corruption.

4. Anna Hazare

My own personal opinion of him is that he is a stubborn old guy who wants to play God on our constitution by imposing his whims forcefully. He doesn't believe in democracy and there doesn't seem to be any indication that he ever believed in it. He has no respect for the law which I guess is clear from his actions. If he wanted to protest, he could have done it from his home, but instead he want to protest at a public place whose end result would be disruptive to a lot of people and he continued his stubbornness even when he didn't get permission. If he had any respect for the law, he would not have respected the decision or at least took it to the courts if he felt it was suppressing his freedom. When he was preemptively arrested which I think is entirely legal (trouble makers are often arrested preemptively and its apt in this case since already showed his intentions before hand), he blackmailed the govt into meeting his demands and he intends to force his other whims as well in a similar manner.

Agree and the kicker is if he pushes too hard on this it could very well backfire. Thats the only control over him atm.

He has strong fascist views and he believes in centralization of power with a person or person(s) holding supreme authority over everything else. This is the main reason that he is not interested in politics. He has no interest in the democratic form adopted by India. He may not want power himself, but he does want power to be vested in the hands of a handful of people with a model that would be close to dictatorship. such a form of power can often do wonders for progressing the country (Like how Germany progressed during Hitler's rule) , but there are the evils as well that such a form brings. IMO what he is fighting against is not corruption, but democracy. If his whimsical demands are met due to pressure, it would be biggest defeat for democracy as a from of govt any where in the world.

Agree on the bolded bit. I expect & demand our govt to stand up to any outfit trying to challenge its writ.

Where is the proportional representation in this movement ? what are the numbers ? lol nobody can say

I've come across a lot of ppl here that do not like democracy at all. Do they know that since 2005, the amount of protests in China has increased signficantly. They have thousands of rallies there, the figures are massive. What are they protesting about ? lack of delviery of services, bad governance. It sounds so familiar. but the problem has to be worse there because there is no representiatin. An authoritarian system will always be more corrupt than a democratic one because everybody in power is on the take and there ain't nobody to do anything about it.

Yet, these ppl think an authoritarian system would be good here hah!

In many ways he is himself a center of corruption as well. While he himself may not be directly involved, people like him and protests like those thrive corruption. There would be many making money out of his ruckus. His trusts attract a lot money most of which can only be black money. Donations are a popular cover for converting blank money. No one knows how much money he gets and where it goes. If they themselves show that a fasting protest cost them crore's of rupees then I am not about going to believe there is no corruption around him.

govt smear tactics ?

Here is a question where does the equivalent of a lok pal exist anywhere in the free world ? nowhere because the judiciary is independent and does its job.

Why are govts more accountable abroad ? they know they can get caught or at least the chances of being caught for graft are higher.

what can we do to have that here is the age old question.

Here we want to create an org to watch other orgs that should have been doing their jobs in the first place. That is one of the wierd things about this lok pal concept.

 

[kippu]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

considering all the support and good will that he has , why dont he start a political party and clean the system while he is at it?

 

[agantuk]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

^ Yea. He should win comfortably with absolute majority. He can then set up his govt (him being the PM of course) at the centre and in all the states and wipe out corruption in one shot. His team can be the ministers and people supporting him - being clean themselves - will replace the current corrupt set of govt officials.

 

[Hades.]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

I totally agree with 6pack

Heck even for passport verification we have to give money to the police officer/constable so that he doesn't create any problem... If you wont give money your work will not get done... the police officer would try to find some mistakes in the documents (even if there isn't any) and the whole effort of creating a passport will go down the drain...

 

[Crazy_Eddy]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

He has no respect for the law which I guess is clear from his actions. If he wanted to protest, he could have done it from his home, but instead he want to protest at a public place whose end result would be disruptive to a lot of people and he continued his stubbornness even when he didn't get permission. If he had any respect for the law, he would not have respected the decision or at least took it to the courts if he felt it was suppressing his freedom. When he was preemptively arrested which I think is entirely legal (trouble makers are often arrested preemptively and its apt in this case since already showed his intentions before hand), he blackmailed the govt into meeting his demands and he intends to force his other whims as well in a similar manner.

Precisely!

<edited >

 

[Superbad]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

considering all the support and good will that he has , why dont he start a political party and clean the system while he is at it?

to win an election he would have to bribe the poor to get through and hence he wont enter politics.
He had mentioned it earlier

more than half of our population does not vote during elections and those who vote are bribed with booze and cash . I do not accept that hence wont enter politics

all he is talking is to put in reforms where a politician will be accountable for his actions.
From the history of independent india i do not remember any political personality good or bad been held guilty and him being prosecuted when his cases reach upto the supreme court.
This is a start for such reforms.

 

[Shripad]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

Precisely!

The last time he held his protest, things turned violent and the police + govt were blamed. Even the UK riots had people shouting police brutality. This time all the cops wanted was for him to conduct his fast with some restrictions in place to make crowd control easier/safer, and he refused. Any tom, dick and techboi who wants to conduct any public event needs permission, plain and simple. And lets be honest, the majority of people attending these events are jobless/hooligans/paid to be there types. I recall seeing images of people pouring onto the streets and disrupting traffic, jumping into the middle of the road, etc. Yes disrupting traffic is a great way to end corruption.

His shrewd timing has to be applauded though, coinciding all this BS with Independence day.

As a friend said - does the Lokpal bill permit Blackmail ?

P.s.: I see a lot of people proudly proclaiming Anna Hazare as some fearless soldier. There is this article on Reader's Digest that says he was an army truck driver who jumped off his truck at the sight of Sabre jets and except him the rest onboard ended up dead or seriously injured.

No offence, but check your story

It was not his protest that turned violent. It was action taken by Delhi Police at the middle of night on Baba Ramdev's protest. Even that was cruel the way it was conducted after midnight.

And again check your story about who is protesting with him now. People from all layers of society are there.

Yesterday here in Mumbai, top bankers, engineers, entire college wing, lawyers were present at the protests.

And this is not blackmail, blackmail would be what happened in UP in April and May. Where people actually held police officials as ransom.

Lets be frank, none of this has anything to do with whats happening. WHen you have to act against any system, you have to break some rules made by that system. This is the only way something is going to change.

Not a single incident of violent protest till date in this movement. And its easy to sling mud on a person who actually gave 15 years of his life even to military service even when he shouldnt have been in military in first place. Its only the crunch time of war that saw him in the army and he gave it happily.

About surviving the raid, its a matter of luck. When fighter jets start flying over your head, lets see what anyone does. Even soldiers are taught to get out of their trucks and unprotected non armoured vehicles in such cases.

 

[chiron]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

3. Fight against corruption

Fight against corruption starts only when we start accepting that that we are part of the problem rather than self righteously assuming we are outside it and putting all the blame on the politicians. Blindly crying support for a stubborn troublemaker out trying to impose his own whims is not going to help. Yes, the change has to start from the bottom level, giving supreme authority to a single body and getting a few politicians punished isn't going to help much in the long run. Believe me, my dad had already tried the top down approach to stopping corruption at a small scale and he didn't get a lot of success. If it didn't work well even at such a small scale, there is no hope that it will work at a country wide scale. Its like a fishing net that can only catch large fish while all the small fish escape. The large fish are very few in number while the small fish will be numerous. People only tend to talk about the blank money that politicians amassed in their swiss banks, but I am willing to bet that if we calculate all the money that common folk should be paying towards taxes, but not paying, all that black money in the swiss banks would seem like a minuscule amount before that. Corruption exists at all levels and the corruption at the top is only a replica of the corruption at the bottom with the only difference being the scale of figures involved. While the common folk amass 100's, 1000's and 10000's, the politicians amass cores. that scale alone doesn't make it right to put all the blame on politicians.

4. Anna Hazare

My own personal opinion of him is that he is a stubborn old guy who wants to play God on our constitution by imposing his whims forcefully. He doesn't believe in democracy and there doesn't seem to be any indication that he ever believed in it. He has no respect for the law which I guess is clear from his actions. If he wanted to protest, he could have done it from his home, but instead he want to protest at a public place whose end result would be disruptive to a lot of people and he continued his stubbornness even when he didn't get permission. If he had any respect for the law, he would not have respected the decision or at least took it to the courts if he felt it was suppressing his freedom. When he was preemptively arrested which I think is entirely legal (trouble makers are often arrested preemptively and its apt in this case since already showed his intentions before hand), he blackmailed the govt into meeting his demands and he intends to force his other whims as well in a similar manner.

He has strong fascist views and he believes in centralization of power with a person or person(s) holding supreme authority over everything else. This is the main reason that he is not interested in politics. He has no interest in the democratic form adopted by India. He may not want power himself, but he does want power to be vested in the hands of a handful of people with a model that would be close to dictatorship. such a form of power can often do wonders for progressing the country (Like how Germany progressed during Hitler's rule) , but there are the evils as well that such a form brings. IMO what he is fighting against is not corruption, but democracy. If his whimsical demands are met due to pressure, it would be biggest defeat for democracy as a from of govt any where in the world.

In many ways he is himself a center of corruption as well. While he himself may not be directly involved, people like him and protests like those thrive corruption. There would be many making money out of his ruckus. His trusts attract a lot money most of which can only be black money. Donations are a popular cover for converting blank money. No one knows how much money he gets and where it goes. If they themselves show that a fasting protest cost them crore's of rupees then I am not about going to believe there is no corruption around him.

First you say that only people have the power to change by bringing change themselves. Then in the next point you bring up Hitler who used his and his supporter's viewpoints, imposed it on his country's populace and influenced history to such an extent. Don't you see the contradiction in the two statements?

 

[pauldmps]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

@ Lord Nemesis

Please check that you've gathered proper info about Mr. Hazare before targeting him personally.

This report of BBC might help : BBC News - The world of India's anti-graft campaigner Anna Hazare

It is easy to target others who're trying to make some change, Isn't it ?

@ Crazy_Eddy

1. I haven't heard that last time when Mr. Hazare sat on fast, there was violence. I would be pleased if you can direct me to some news articles regarding the same.

2. Regarding the arrest, you yourself know that the conditions imposed were unjust. You might have also seen that Rahul Gandhi himself violated Section 144 by entering the restricted region & when he was arrested, the Congress cried of foul play. The same party picks up Mr. Hazare even before he entered the restricted region in the name of "Preventive Detention". The section imposed on Mr. Hazare IPC 107 does not justify "Preventive Detention". You can cross-check this with any lawyer you want.

And can you explain me why the police released Mr. Hazare even when he did not apply for bail, unless the police was working on Govt. pressure (before & after) ?

I have restrained from posting in this thread as I know individual opinons cannot be influenced by others & the matter of this thread will remain a matter of dispute.. But I am observing that some people are trying to target the whole thing based on false facts & are in an urge to create a controversy. Please post your opinions here & do not try to justify it based on false facts.

 

[6pack]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

What will you do if they refuse to accept that donation ?

Why would they refuse when they asked it from me in the first place?

So what will happen in a world where we cannot give bribe :fear:

This is the point ragu is making.

Everyone would be compelled to follow the rules. The law would be enforced more strictly i guess.
They would get their work done a bit slower i suppose but not have to pay anymore than what is required.

 

[blr_p]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

Yesterday here in Mumbai, top bankers, engineers, entire college wing, lawyers were present at the protests.

top bankers eh ? now why would they get involved in this. Whats in it for them.

The oppositin are in it because its a windfall, one more way to attack. Would they have acceded if they were in the same position ?

I kinda doubt it. Because what this guy is proposing is going to screw up what we have come to take for granted.

And this is not blackmail, blackmail would be what happened in UP in April and May. Where people actually held police officials as ransom.

you mean to tell me this isn't the first time he's tried this ?

WHen you have to act against any system, you have to break some rules made by that system. This is the only way something is going to change.

Change into what exactly ? do you know

Are ppl thinking or have their emotions stopped them from thinking.

Do you want to live in a world where you could not bribe at all ?

But how then would your kids go to school, the school would say they need 100% otherwise sorry.

The bribe you give goes to making that school better, they won't get that money now. So they'll be as is, but we wil get some very intelligent kids going to school. You just lost your power to outbid somebody else. You lost the only edge you had.

Hazare does not want you to be able to bribe because he could not afford to bribe, he wants you to work you butt off instead.

I'm always wary about these 'peoples movements' because i know they want to rob of me of something.

Not a single incident of violent protest till date in this movement. And its easy to sling mud on a person who actually gave 15 years of his life even to military service even when he shouldnt have been in military in first place. Its only the crunch time of war that saw him in the army and he gave it happily.

And this is the excuse to break laws and use coercive tactics ?

That readers digest article was very useful in getting a profile of this character, i now understand his background.

“Rural India is a harsh society,” he says, “if you want change, it’s sometimes necessary to be tough.”
That speaks volumes about the man & his methods. He ain't a thinker, he's a fighter. It explains the absolute obstinacy he & his ppl have towards any changes to their bill. It must be very pervasive in scope, the slightest hint of corruption and they descend upon you.

This is how you kill democracy, you get an outfit that tries to muscle its way or get the govt to cave. They need to somehow show that the govt is illegitimate, oh look how corrupt they are, oh see how brutal they are, blah blah so why should we obey their laws. You keep doing it one brick at a time and before you know it you've got a bunch of brownshirts calling the shots and having elected govt defering to them. Next question becomes why we need to listen to govt at all, its lok pal that is the only honest group there let them run things.

But of course they do not want a weak lok pal bill, because it will not give them the power they want to take over the country.

Well, if thats the case i think it might be better that govt implement its version, ppl lose faith and the idea is finally put to rest in the coffin of bad ideas never to be repeated anywhere else again.

We need to simpplify our system not add even more crap to it. And this is dangerous crap.

Our freedom fighters did not give their all for some truck driver to trash. They were not 7th std dropouts, they were the best we had and this is why we have a country to be proud of today. Of course this joker decided to piss on that legacy by staging his 'protest' on the very next day.

Oh this is no independence movement, this is a power grab.

 

[chiron]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

Change into what exactly ? do you know

Are ppl thinking or have their emotions stopped them from thinking.

Do you want to live in a world where you could not bribe at all ?

But how then would your kids go to school, the school would say they need 100% otherwise sorry.

The bribe you give goes to making that school better, they won't get that money now. So they'll be as is, but we wil get some very intelligent kids going to school. You just lost your power to outbid somebody else. You lost the only edge you had.

Hazare does not want you to be able to bribe because he could not afford to bribe, he wants you to work you butt off instead.

I don't see anything wrong with any of those things

 

[6pack]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

The oppositin are in it because its a windfall, one more way to attack. Would they have acceded if they were in the same position ?

Agree with you here.
Was watching NDTV news and a news reporter asked one of the Lok Pal people which of opposition party sided with their version of the bill. Answer was, none.
No party wants to side with Hazare's version of the bill. Why would they give up a goose that lays [strike]golden[/strike] diamond eggs?

Hazare does not want you to be able to bribe because he could not afford to bribe, he wants you to work you butt off instead.

Most people work their butts off and more and still cannot meet ends. The average salary would be around 8k-10k i guess. People earning above 20k are in the IT field only.
Add to that rising transport, food and other prices and zero to marginal increase in the incomes. The result it what you see from the past few days. People revolting against a govt hell bent on some retarded 8% growth plan. Growth brings wealth yes, but it brings rise in inflation too. Growth is at the cost of people's lives, which this govt and govt's previously have failed to see.

This is how you kill democracy, you get an outfit that tries to muscle its way or get the govt to cave. They need to somehow show that the govt is illegitimate, oh look how corrupt they are, oh see how brutal they are, blah blah so why should we obey their laws. You keep doing it one brick at a time and before you know it you've got a bunch of brownshirts calling the shots and having elected govt defering to them. Next question becomes why we need to listen to govt at all, its lok pal that is the only honest group there let them run things.

But of course they do not want a weak lok pal bill, because it will not give them the power they want to take over the country.

Well, if thats the case i think it might be better that govt implement its version, ppl lose faith and the idea is finally put to rest in the coffin of bad ideas never to be repeated anywhere else again.

We need to simpplify our system not add even more crap to it. And this is dangerous crap.

Our freedom fighters did not give their all for some truck driver to trash. They were not 7th std dropouts, they were the best we had and this is why we have a country to be proud of today. Of course this joker decided to piss on that legacy by staging his 'protest' on the very next day.

Partly agree with you on this just because i feel the communist party is standing behind him in the shadows somewhere. They'll come out at the right time in 2012 i guess.
Corruption cannot be completely removed.
How do you simplify a system that is so complicated like this? Any views?

 

[broadway]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

Karan thapar just made a hour long show trying to prove that anna campaign is a media campaign.
Picked out a word arnab used on this show and ran with it for the next 10 minutes.

Used several adjectives against the campaign. (who mandated you(anna's team) to speak for the people of india?)
Then he asks why anna wants his bill only and not the govts bill? lol
Spends the next half hour talking about the violation of democratic rights.

It was sad to see karan thapar engage in a smear campaign. Built and sustained the whole show for an whole hour based on simple juvenile arguments.

I'm done with karan. He used to be happy being who he was with his little audience following. Now he's all over CNN-IBN and speaks like the rest of the anchors too.

 

[Mephistopheles]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

A very simple solution: Free CBI from the government + a judicial accountability bill + whistleblower's protection bill

 

[Shripad]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

top bankers eh ? now why would they get involved in this. Whats in it for them.

The oppositin are in it because its a windfall, one more way to attack. Would they have acceded if they were in the same position ?

I kinda doubt it. Because what this guy is proposing is going to screw up what we have come to take for granted.

you mean to tell me this isn't the first time he's tried this ?
Change into what exactly ? do you know

Are ppl thinking or have their emotions stopped them from thinking.

Do you want to live in a world where you could not bribe at all ?

But how then would your kids go to school, the school would say they need 100% otherwise sorry.

The bribe you give goes to making that school better, they won't get that money now. So they'll be as is, but we wil get some very intelligent kids going to school. You just lost your power to outbid somebody else. You lost the only edge you had.

Hazare does not want you to be able to bribe because he could not afford to bribe, he wants you to work you butt off instead.

I'm always wary about these 'peoples movements' because i know they want to rob of me of something.
And this is the excuse to break laws and use coercive tactics ?

That readers digest article was very useful in getting a profile of this character, i now understand his background.

“Rural India is a harsh society,” he says, “if you want change, it’s sometimes necessary to be tough.”

That speaks volumes about the man & his methods. He ain't a thinker, he's a fighter. It explains the absolute obstinacy he & his ppl have towards any changes to their bill. It must be very pervasive in scope, the slightest hint of corruption and they descend upon you.

This is how you kill democracy, you get an outfit that tries to muscle its way or get the govt to cave. They need to somehow show that the govt is illegitimate, oh look how corrupt they are, oh see how brutal they are, blah blah so why should we obey their laws. You keep doing it one brick at a time and before you know it you've got a bunch of brownshirts calling the shots and having elected govt defering to them. Next question becomes why we need to listen to govt at all, its lok pal that is the only honest group there let them run things.

But of course they do not want a weak lok pal bill, because it will not give them the power they want to take over the country.

Well, if thats the case i think it might be better that govt implement its version, ppl lose faith and the idea is finally put to rest in the coffin of bad ideas never to be repeated anywhere else again.

We need to simpplify our system not add even more crap to it. And this is dangerous crap.

Our freedom fighters did not give their all for some truck driver to trash. They were not 7th std dropouts, they were the best we had and this is why we have a country to be proud of today. Of course this joker decided to piss on that legacy by staging his 'protest' on the very next day.

Oh this is no independence movement, this is a power grab.

LOL, Why anyone has to question the intention of any individual. Be it banker, student, peon, zaduwala, kachrewala or anyone. Is there anything wrong is protesting against corruption? Does it matter what their personal gain is? Its for betterment of entire society.

Nobody should have to give a bribe to get things done. Be it a millionaire or a poor fellow citizen.

Its a creamy layer that usually stays unaffected by corruption. Or the bribe amounts are usually totally inconsequential for them. Was paying 2k bribe to sales tax officer heavy on my pocket? It wasnt a big deal at all. But the simple and absolute truth is, I shouldnt have to do that. I shouldnt have to fear that my work will not get done in time because I did not pay the bribe. People like myself and I am guessing you as well usually do not feel the real pinch of corruption most of the time, but that does not mean its ok or good or should be allowed to go on.

It does not matter why anyone is against corruption. In real life there is Right, wrong and then there is something in the middle. Corruption will absolutely always be in the wrong category.

I dont need predict what will be the future of this moment or should be able to tell you what it will be. The fact is, I would take anything that is different that current system. If it means there are few tough times ahead, so be it. It does not matter who the messenger is, if its for the right reasons, they will always get public support and even against the government they themselves selected. Being an elected government does not give them the absolute right to do whatever they want without facing any opposition from opposite party, NGOs or general public. Its the same constitution that got them elected gives all of us the right to protest against them. If you want to protest against the movement, you are also free to do so.

Nobody is questioning legitimacy of this government. They are questioning what they are doing for the people and against corruption. This government has absolute zero chance of falling prematurely even with this movement. Unless they take moral responsibility and step down or their own elected officials decide to go against their top brass mentality, there is no chance that any of this will destabilize this government.

This isnt the first time a ruling government is questioned in the history or human politics, this wont be the last. Rest or the points in your post are all irrelevant.

--- Updated Post - Automerged ---

A very simple solution: Free CBI from the government + a judicial accountability bill + whistleblower's protection bill

This is exactly what Lokpal bill intends to do. They want CBI anti corruption wing under lokpal and independent of government. And want to protect whistleblowers. And that can be effectively achieved only if all three are combined under one agency / department which is free from government interference and inter agency bureaucracy and competition and egos. Unless its all under one roof, it wont be effective.

 

[Gannu]

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

Got this as a forward sometime back -

Spoiler