Anna Hazare's fast against corruption

Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

rdst_1 said:
@blr_p

I agree with you on a lot of terms actually.Especially the governance should be simplified and decentralized, just as Gandhiji wanted.This will really help curb corruption by following the rules already laid. Coz if the people who take the decisions are local and in front of you, it is easy to hold them to account for their corruption.That would certainly be the best way to go about if you want to eliminate corruption.
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Avoid absolute words like elliminate & corruption free, those are not realistic goals.

A realistic goal is reduction with more accountabilty based on successful convictions of those guilty. Thats it.

If we manage that we've already achieved a lot.
 
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

First part of his op-ed, Shripad already addressed, just because some of us are corrupt does not necessarily mean we cannot get accountable govt.

Second part is how MMS bungled the handling of this, basically they should have killed it, is that the bloggers contention ? Hah, no chance could they have done that.

Third part has some truth to it, that if it wasn't for the inabilty of govt to tackle this on its own then there would have been no need for Hazare to bring it up. If you think about it govt should have come up with its own lok pal bill without external prodding. Well, govt does not always do what we want, sometimes prodding is reqd.

So in summation I do not see much value in this op-ed at all. It seems like space filler to me. sorry if that sounds harsh.
 
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

Stuge said:
Yesterday ,I went to Jantar Mantar .Atmosphere there was amazing :) .Will post pictures :)

--- Updated Post - Automerged ---

haha So many people fighting over keyboard ,and infact doing nothing .;)
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first lot of pictures posted :)
 
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

Lord Nemesis said:
Just out of curiosity, How many of you guy's and how many of those people involved in disruptive protests crying support for Anna Hazare (rather than Anti-corruption) have been sincere in paying your taxes and duties? :p

By sincere, I mean being sincere about your HRA claim, not showing fake LTA or medical claims, showing all your bank interest and Fixed Deposit interest earnings for tax deduction, showing all your other sources of income, always paying sales tax/VAT for stuff you buy and never buying from grey market, valuing anything you import correctly and paying duties for that.

If you have not been sincere in those things then know that corruption starts from you, not from the politicians and that you are just being hypocritical when you claim that you support Anna's anti corruption protests. If you want to fight corruption, the fight starts with you. Don't expect that you would be rid of corruption magically by blindly supporting what ever Anna does. If you have been sincere, then also you are still supporting a person who is trying to dictate his own will and whims on the govt and law and making demands that will more than likely going to increase corruption than decrease it. The very fast that he was able to black mail the law into releasing him and giving him permission to hold his fast publicly is in itself a display of corruption

You won't see them on the streets because the same sense that allowed them to see that Anna's whimsical demands are not going to do any good also enabled them see that creating a ruckus on the streets through disruptive protests is not going to help anyone.
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Totally agreed. I know a lot of very well educated ppl (IIT/NIT) and most are corrupt even in the basic facets of life.

Bunch of dudes stay in a 1BHK. Probably pay less than Rs2000 as actual rent. HRA claimed is Rs15000-20000. To save on income tax.

Couple of guys bought homes recently. Original amount paid = Rs50L. Amount registered = Rs28L, just at the guideline value. To save on registration tax. Some of them cant even register for more because they have paid with black money.

Few guys have shifted their 4/2 wheelers from other states. Still running on old number plates. To save on road tax.

Most dont declare income from ESOPs/ESPPs.

All this BS from extremely well educated and well earning members of the society. I have no hope that others will be any better. Dont expect any change in politicians unless there is a change at the ground level.
 
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

^^ ridiculous to expect change to come from ground level; who would/could you rather hold accountable a few thousand leaders or over a billion followers? The way I see it corruption is perpetrated by complicity and so if the chain is broken at the top then it would automatically be reflected down the line.

As far as the Jan Lokpal bill(I've only gone through the analysis put up on the iac website and this is based on that, so if I've misunderstood anything the please correct me) is concerned I disagree with the following points;

- power to initiate inverstigation; this has to come only on the basis of a complaint made by an citizen rather than Lokpal as in institution. However I agree that Lokpal should not have to get the permission of the govt or judiciary in order to pursue the investigations.

- power to pass judgement/impose penalties should be left to the entirely court system. The Lokpal can make the case in court and maybe even get due priority. Why should we not trust the judiciary with corruption when we let them judge far worse crimes like murder for instance? Problems of cases dragging on too long and inadequate punishments for corruption can be addressed by appropriately changing the laws concerning them and streamlining the judicial process; not by letting the Lokpal be the judge. This is the biggest problem I have with the bill and imo if such powers are given to Lokpal it is a far worse injustice than corruption is made out to be.

- the selection process outlined in is so blatantly unfair it almost seems like a joke. The following is not a well thought out alternative but I think even my attempt is fairer than the one outlined in the article;

The Selection committee can be as is and the same with the 5 members from the retd CAG/CECs of the search commitee but the remaining 5 members from civil society must be selected through random lottery of citizens who have expressed interest in being in the committee. Of course those people selected would also be vetted appropriately as with the CAGs. Recommendations from eminent personalities should never be done as "eminent" is such an arbitary and elitist term. People interested in being in Lokpal should have to clear the equivalent of an IAS exam and officials must be selected from among those candidates alone. Once the initial setup has been done further selection would be done by the the Lokpal itself thus making it an entirely independent body with new officials getting through with exams alone.

- scope should be limited to the top elected officials (MPs, MLAs and above) and top judges alone. If the policies enacted by the govt and judgements made by judicuary are fair then the bureaucrats/police/top officials etc will fall in line. A lot of corruption is caused because of poor procedures and outdated rules/practices and this again is a problem has to be dealt with by the existing machinery than due to fear of the lokpal stick. After all is it corruption if the law itself is unfair/poorly though out/difficult to enforce? That addresses the problems of getting ration cards/permits/taxes and such. The narrowed scope on the other hand allows for enhanced scrutiny where it really matters.
 
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

NinByChoice said:
Dont expect any change in politicians unless there is a change at the ground level.
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Accountability does not follow a bottom-up approach, it is always top-down. So your assumption is incorrect, the change has to come from the top. When you have a dagger hanging on your neck you will make sure that your subordinates are working as they should.

Also your expectation that first ground level needs to change is like asking for utopia. Anyway lets assume that is the correct way to approach things. Do you have a suggestion on how that can be achieved? What process needs to be followed. Or is it just roll your eyes, mock at the current state of affairs and get back to angry birds till everyone on ground level has improved?
 
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

NinByChoice said:
Dont expect any change in politicians unless there is a change at the ground level.
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It is something like saying "Don't have a strong law against thieves, instead encourage people to join SATSANG's so that people are good hearted and don't go for robbery and theft""
 
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

Lord Nemesis said:
If you want to fight corruption, the fight starts with you.
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The fight starts at the top not bottom.

Lord Nemesis said:
Don't expect that you would be rid of corruption magically by blindly supporting what ever Anna does.
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No one is saying that Anna is going to get rid of corruption.

Lord Nemesis said:
If you have been sincere, then also you are still supporting a person who is trying to dictate his own will and whims on the govt and law and making demands that will more than likely going to increase corruption than decrease it. The very fast that he was able to black mail the law into releasing him and giving him permission to hold his fast publicly is in itself a display of corruption
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Seriously dude why do you hate India and Indians. Most of your posts are anti India and anti Indians.

Was Gandhi and other freedom fighters corrupt because they held fasts against the British??
 
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

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Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

Lord Nemesis said:
If you have been sincere, then also you are still supporting a person who is trying to dictate his own will and whims on the govt and law and making demands that will more than likely going to increase corruption than decrease it.
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First part i agree with that is why he was detained for challenging the govts writ, basically defying the govt.

Now whether his demand will actually increase corruption rather than decrease it is for you to show. I think you are referring to the fact the LP itself will be corrupted. Thats like saying we can never have any accountable govt because its easy to bribe leaders. There is certainly scope for corruption within the LP and for that the bill must provide strong penalties. There are penalties but i'm not done going through it yet.

The other issue is whether this will be a challenge on our system this extrmely powerful org that has oversight over every govt servant. A parallel judiciary, thats a much harder question to deal with. US has an independent judiciary not a parallel one. I support independence but the JLP ppl say this org will be independent. an independent org that will have super powers is the issue.

Lord Nemesis said:
The very fast that he was able to black mail the law into releasing him and giving him permission to hold his fast publicly is in itself a display of corruption
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If the arrest was unconstitutional then he has a right to go to the courts to quash it. There are two versions to this story

Jaitley: he was released because he threated to go to court over it.
Khurshid: the detention was lawful because they did not go to court to challenge it.

who is correct or if both are wrong, is there a 3rd version ie what actually happened ?
 
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

BLR_P, Lord Nemesis and Kippu what exactly is the point that you all wish to make about corruption and anti-corruption drive and the jokepal bill that is being pushed by UPA in the Parliament.

Lets be clear about your standings on these, instead of critiquing one paragraph each time, and then someone responding with further analysis on your comment on individual paragraphs.

We all know about paralysis by analysis.
 
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

sslayer, reread the thread , my position is very clear and does not need to be repeated.

If you disagree, quote parts and then i'll answer.
 
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

Salman Khursheed is the pimp of diplomacy; a sophisticated version of Manish Tiwari. Another guy who can speak jibberish for hours without actually saying anything is Jyotiraditya Scindia.

What the govt wants is to make the lokpal dept yet another one of it's committees. It has to be independent. And it has to have godly powers.
 
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

rdst_1 said:
I agree with you on a lot of terms actually.Especially the governance should be simplified and decentralized, just as Gandhiji wanted.This will really help curb corruption by following the rules already laid. Coz if the people who take the decisions are local and in front of you, it is easy to hold them to account for their corruption.That would certainly be the best way to go about if you want to eliminate corruption.
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Extending on this thinking...

we have corruption because we have a bloated inefficient govt & complicated laws

What is the hot idea presently to solve corruption ? add yet another dept to this bloated govt, butttttttt it will be independent.

And this new dept supposedly must have god powers so it will also have to be bloated because it has to handle everybody's complaints. It will soon get as back logged as the courts. It will take how long to deliver, oh but the bills say it must be time bound, so if you want to have god powers and you cannot refuse anyone then how will you choose what to work on ?

Warra great idea :eek:hyeah:

Is lok pal really the best way to do this ?

But we need simplification

The problem is how do you achieve that in a culture that thinks throwing more ppl at the problem is the best way :huh:

Fred Brooks from IBM in the book mythical man-month said throwing more ppl at a problem does not deliver the result sooner but rather later.

But ppl say this is about accountabilty ? we have no way to catch those that break the laws.

And so we come around full circle without an answer.
 
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

Renegade said:
Accountability does not follow a bottom-up approach, it is always top-down. So your assumption is incorrect, the change has to come from the top. When you have a dagger hanging on your neck you will make sure that your subordinates are working as they should.
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You speak as if the politicians are somehow disconnected from the society. Politicians are a reflection of the people who elected them. Expecting them to be better than the society that elected them is absolutely ridiculous.

Also its wrong to think that politicians are at the top because they make the rules. Its the people who are at the top, because they elect the politicians.

Renegade said:
Do you have a suggestion on how that can be achieved? What process needs to be followed. Or is it just roll your eyes, mock at the current state of affairs and get back to angry birds till everyone on ground level has improved?
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People need to be taught to think and educated on how the country actually runs. Most seem oblivious to the consequences of their actions. If you are in the minority that understand this then please go ahead and educate your circle/immediate society. Honesty and diligence need to be ingrained in our society. Ensure your kids understand this. The transformation needs to happen at the ground level. It will take a while. It will be way tougher than getting this lokpal bill passed. But its also something that will last a lot longer.

People complain about bad roads and poor infrastructure, while continuing to evade taxes.

People complain about bad politicians, while continuing to abstain from voting or voting for the wrong person.

They dont seem to realise that its their own actions biting them in the a$$. This is the dagger you talk of. People who dont understand this are ignorant retards. Its the duty of non-retards to help fellow citizens.

The lokpal might be effective for a few years, but will become just as dysfunctional as the rest of the system (legislature+judiciary+enforcement). Why do we need a 4th organisation to add to the confusion? The functioning of the lokpal overlaps judiciary and enforcement. Who will resolve differences?

And one more important question - people want to extend the reach of lokpal to PMO. Why dont they want to extend it in the other direction to investigate the common man who pays/offers the bribe? Can a govt. officer complain to lokpal if a person offers bribe (say to get work done faster or for approving bogus documents)?
 
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

NinByChoice said:
Why dont they want to extend it in the other direction to investigate the common man who pays/offers the bribe? Can a govt. officer complain to lokpal if a person offers bribe (say to get work done faster or for approving bogus documents)?
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What will you do if you go to get your kid admitted into KG and the management asks for 1lac donation and when you give them they complain against you for giving them bribe?
If you do not pay donation will you be willing to keep your kid out of school for the time till you get a place which does not take any money? Can you find such a place first?

People give bribe out of fear and compulsion that their job will not get done. Try not giving bribe once and you will see that no matter how many times you go you will be turned back on some excuse or other. You will have lost more money taking leave from office than if you would have paid their 500 or 1000 bucks.
 
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.

6pack said:
What will you do if you go to get your kid admitted into KG and the management asks for 1lac donation and when you give them they complain against you for giving them bribe?
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What will you do if they refuse to accept that donation ?

6pack said:
If you do not pay donation will you be willing to keep your kid out of school for the time till you get a place which does not take any money? Can you find such a place first?
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exactly

6pack said:
People give bribe out of fear and compulsion that their job will not get done. Try not giving bribe once and you will see that no matter how many times you go you will be turned back on some excuse or other. You will have lost more money taking leave from office than if you would have paid their 500 or 1000 bucks.
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So what will happen in a world where we cannot give bribe :fear:

This is the point ragu is making.
 
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