Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.
So how many guys here went out for the Support/protest rally?
So how many guys here went out for the Support/protest rally?
Anna Hazare's fast against corruption
- Thread starter Shripad
- Start date
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.
What I said is, I'm in favour of disregarding the democratic practices if it means to prosecute a corrupt democracy.
A corrupt democracy is not a democracy.
All we are doing is appointing a watchdog(which is neither the bjp or the congress) and giving it powers to establish order in the administration department. Surely, you can agree with me that lokpal will be free from influence from any of the political parties. You are aware that I lean in favour of NDA simply because I see congress as the greater evil. This new authority not only threatens UPA but NDA too. The difficulty for me is to make you agree to compromise on your part because I've compromised on my part by taking a stand.
Parliamentary democracy stays. That's important.
In fact, I think an independent authority(with powers) overseeing govt administration is a f@#king awesome set up.
Jan Lokpal Draft on selection process
Broad based selection committee with 2 politicians, 4 judges and 2 independent constitutional authorities.
•An independent search committee consisting of retired constitutional authorities to prepare first list.
•A detailed transparent selection process with Public particaipation
Government Draft on selection process
•With 5 out of 10 members from ruling establishment, 6 politicians in selection committee, ensured that only pliable & weak people be selected
•Search committee to be selected by selection committee
•No selection process provided.
You read it out of context.blr_p said:
What I said is, I'm in favour of disregarding the democratic practices if it means to prosecute a corrupt democracy.
A corrupt democracy is not a democracy.
I don't expect the powers to hand me the key and request me to jail them. That's not going to happen. The point is to push as much as we can. That way we compromise less and get more in the bargain.blr_p said:
This govt is legitimate but that does not stop it from refusing to prosecute some of it's own people because of this "coalition dharma" concept they prescribe to. We need to change with circumstances. We need to be pragmatics in this regard. The people of india will still get to vote and choose their leaders. This watchdog does not change that setup.blr_p said:
All we are doing is appointing a watchdog(which is neither the bjp or the congress) and giving it powers to establish order in the administration department. Surely, you can agree with me that lokpal will be free from influence from any of the political parties. You are aware that I lean in favour of NDA simply because I see congress as the greater evil. This new authority not only threatens UPA but NDA too. The difficulty for me is to make you agree to compromise on your part because I've compromised on my part by taking a stand.
That's complete false cause its out of context. See above.blr_p said:
Parliamentary democracy stays. That's important.
I don't think they have any intentions to abolish democracy. All they want is accountability.blr_p said:
In fact, I think an independent authority(with powers) overseeing govt administration is a f@#king awesome set up.
I've disagreed with raman on many views in the past.blr_p said:
We have to agree to disagree on each others views on this point. Democracy is not god's word. I'll compromise some of it (but only to make things better)blr_p said:
That's was in context of what kippu try to implyblr_p said:
Jan Lokpal Draft on selection process
Broad based selection committee with 2 politicians, 4 judges and 2 independent constitutional authorities.
•An independent search committee consisting of retired constitutional authorities to prepare first list.
•A detailed transparent selection process with Public particaipation
Government Draft on selection process
•With 5 out of 10 members from ruling establishment, 6 politicians in selection committee, ensured that only pliable & weak people be selected
•Search committee to be selected by selection committee
•No selection process provided.
anuragingle
Disciple
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.
Just had 1 query?
How is the jan lokpal committee\ lok ayukt going to find out where exactly corruption is happening and how can they prove that corruption has indeed occured?
Just had 1 query?
How is the jan lokpal committee\ lok ayukt going to find out where exactly corruption is happening and how can they prove that corruption has indeed occured?
urssriks
Disciple
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.
^ Simple I should say if we have RTI with Jan Lokpal, it will be atleast easy to see how much funds are being diverted to their accounts.
Funds released by government for development in constituency subtracted by Funds used ( which you can get by filing RTI) = Funds in their Swiss bank accounts...
Also with the people filling complaints with proof they will track it.
But the biggest thing is punishing them.. If Kasab can appeal in Supreme court for mearcy Plea
, Damn who knows where these Corrupt officials will end.
^ Simple I should say if we have RTI with Jan Lokpal, it will be atleast easy to see how much funds are being diverted to their accounts.
Funds released by government for development in constituency subtracted by Funds used ( which you can get by filing RTI) = Funds in their Swiss bank accounts...
Also with the people filling complaints with proof they will track it.
But the biggest thing is punishing them.. If Kasab can appeal in Supreme court for mearcy Plea
, Damn who knows where these Corrupt officials will end.NinByChoice
Skilled
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.
Thats totally retarded. I dont even know where to begin...
broadway said:
Thats totally retarded. I dont even know where to begin...
chiron
Skilled
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.
Widening the scope of Lokpal to cover such low end instances would make the workload impossible to handle; where are they going to find people to do the job of following up on the hundreds of thousands of complaints that will immediately crop up? What about the institutions that will become redundant because of it; will the people working in those departments be absorbed into lokpal; wouldn't that mean they inherit all the failings of the previous system? imo the only way is to have a lot of scrutiny and accountability at the absolute top i.e. the centre alone rather than have a comprehensive scope as the jan lokpal.
Shripad said:
Widening the scope of Lokpal to cover such low end instances would make the workload impossible to handle; where are they going to find people to do the job of following up on the hundreds of thousands of complaints that will immediately crop up? What about the institutions that will become redundant because of it; will the people working in those departments be absorbed into lokpal; wouldn't that mean they inherit all the failings of the previous system? imo the only way is to have a lot of scrutiny and accountability at the absolute top i.e. the centre alone rather than have a comprehensive scope as the jan lokpal.
blr_p
Skilled
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.
This is pretty much what the leader of every successful coup d'etat says..
A corrupt democracy is still very much a democracy. there is corruption everywhere, in fact a great deal more in non-democracies because there isn't any representation nor accountability. If you still disagree then India is a non-democracy for you which would be absurd.
As have i, but he's laid down the legal reasons for the govt to act as it did. if you still disagree then you believe the govt has no right to enforce its own laws. That would be an interesting position to be in.
Just admit you want license to break laws to get your way.
No, i haven'tbroadway said:
the rule of law matters not to you. Ergo, you will do anything if it means prosecuting a corrupt democracy.broadway said:
This is pretty much what the leader of every successful coup d'etat says..
Explain that one to me ?broadway said:
A corrupt democracy is still very much a democracy. there is corruption everywhere, in fact a great deal more in non-democracies because there isn't any representation nor accountability. If you still disagree then India is a non-democracy for you which would be absurd.
Push as much as you want but within the rules. Don't break them for the sake of a PR coup.broadway said:
i have no probs with that. I'm not against an effective lok pal.broadway said:
no probs with this either especially the independent part.broadway said:
they may not have intentions to abolish democracy but their actions amount to it, especially in this latest instance. If they're ready to do it so early, i'm not going to feel very confident about the future. Common sense.broadway said:
then go about it the right way. i also think we need something like this.broadway said:
.broadway said:
As have i, but he's laid down the legal reasons for the govt to act as it did. if you still disagree then you believe the govt has no right to enforce its own laws. That would be an interesting position to be in.
i mean just look at that bolded bit, and the joke is you said that with a straight face. no respect for the rule of law.broadway said:
Just admit you want license to break laws to get your way.
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.
Makes me realise, considering grass root employees too, I alone would have 2 cases at the passport office, 2 at the police station, 4 at the RTO, 3 at the Civil Supplies office (ration card), 1 at the Voter ID card office, 2 at the Department of Publication's office, 1 at the electricity office. There definitely are more, but don't strike my mind. I have listed, let me see, 15 cases just for me. If I count the ones for my family separately, that number might touch 40. Assuming 1 in 5 people is impacted by this (very optimistic really), that would mean 24 crore people filing an average of lets assume for ease of calculation 10 cases. 240 crore cases would be with the Lokpal. They are going to have to be super staffed and super efficient to address these many issues.
chiron said:
Makes me realise, considering grass root employees too, I alone would have 2 cases at the passport office, 2 at the police station, 4 at the RTO, 3 at the Civil Supplies office (ration card), 1 at the Voter ID card office, 2 at the Department of Publication's office, 1 at the electricity office. There definitely are more, but don't strike my mind. I have listed, let me see, 15 cases just for me. If I count the ones for my family separately, that number might touch 40. Assuming 1 in 5 people is impacted by this (very optimistic really), that would mean 24 crore people filing an average of lets assume for ease of calculation 10 cases. 240 crore cases would be with the Lokpal. They are going to have to be super staffed and super efficient to address these many issues.
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.
@agantuk
why are you jumping the gun.First you need to get the lokpal made into a law.As with all it will slowly evolve.What we need is a deterrent for the crimes committed.Right now there is no fear of the law as the law is a tool used by the high and the mighty.
@bir_p
I just read a gist of the comments made by you so not an answer to a specific bit but a general one.Yes I agree we should follow the rules and all but what if there is one set of rules for the powerful and another for the weak.Should we follow the rules?.As of now the executive,the judiciary and the executioners(read police etall) are all corrupt.Barring a few honest souls which i believe you can count on your fingers the whole system is rotten.So should we not overthrow the system and bring in a fresh system.Does not the end justify the means?.
The corruption rite now affects us all.For eg take a small case.The bus fare in my state for eg was rs 5 for going from one point to another point.The same one is now 9 rs.A massive increase of 4 rs almost a 100 percent increase.Now could we have prevented it ie the fare hike.Yes if there was no corruption.The primeminister waxes eloquent saying the petroleum subsidy is taxing the exchequer and hence no solution except to increase the price.If the billions looted out of this country was utilized properly then there would have been no need to increase the petrol price or even if increase is needed then a small hike is needed.
So its affected everyone.Its squeezing the middle class to which i belong very hard.
If the govt cannot control inflation and does not want to tackle corruption(throwing kalmadi and raja out does not count)then this govt must go.
@agantuk
why are you jumping the gun.First you need to get the lokpal made into a law.As with all it will slowly evolve.What we need is a deterrent for the crimes committed.Right now there is no fear of the law as the law is a tool used by the high and the mighty.
@bir_p
I just read a gist of the comments made by you so not an answer to a specific bit but a general one.Yes I agree we should follow the rules and all but what if there is one set of rules for the powerful and another for the weak.Should we follow the rules?.As of now the executive,the judiciary and the executioners(read police etall) are all corrupt.Barring a few honest souls which i believe you can count on your fingers the whole system is rotten.So should we not overthrow the system and bring in a fresh system.Does not the end justify the means?.
The corruption rite now affects us all.For eg take a small case.The bus fare in my state for eg was rs 5 for going from one point to another point.The same one is now 9 rs.A massive increase of 4 rs almost a 100 percent increase.Now could we have prevented it ie the fare hike.Yes if there was no corruption.The primeminister waxes eloquent saying the petroleum subsidy is taxing the exchequer and hence no solution except to increase the price.If the billions looted out of this country was utilized properly then there would have been no need to increase the petrol price or even if increase is needed then a small hike is needed.
So its affected everyone.Its squeezing the middle class to which i belong very hard.
If the govt cannot control inflation and does not want to tackle corruption(throwing kalmadi and raja out does not count)then this govt must go.
Shripad
ex-Mod
@chiron, read my post,again. I said such things need to filter down to state and municipal level over time. But it has to start with strong law at center.
Many states already have lokayuktas, but most are seriously crippled in their scope and power. That is why this bill is important. It will make way for changes downstream.
Sent from my Motorola Atrix using Tapatalk Pro.
Many states already have lokayuktas, but most are seriously crippled in their scope and power. That is why this bill is important. It will make way for changes downstream.
Sent from my Motorola Atrix using Tapatalk Pro.
urssriks
Disciple
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.
Guys request each and every one who didnt read this please read....
In India bribes are an accepted norm : India : Arvind Kejriwal : TOI Blogs
Guys request each and every one who didnt read this please read....
In India bribes are an accepted norm : India : Arvind Kejriwal : TOI Blogs
blr_p
Skilled
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.
Just look at the reaction here, quite a few have opposed on these grounds, expand that up for the rest of the country and the reaction might be no different. You want as much support to keep the movement going as you can get not jeopardise it. Not give your opponents cause to spread FUD.
Because its not clear to me what the support for lok pal even is.
But you will get your chance to make that choice when elections are called.
Until then its important to keep this movement clean. The more support there is the better the chances are of getting a lok pal.
If the govt had refused outright to even consider lok pal, if we lived in a dictatoship then things would have been different but as it stands thats not the case. The issue is that the govts version isn't tight enough. Well, then negotiate those differences away.
I'm not in a position to comment on either of these bills yet as i'm still making my way through them, so don't know if there is any truth to either parties positions.
I would say that is even more reason to follow the rules as the legitimacy of this movement derives from holding the moral high ground. Its very easy to attack this movement otherwise, once legitimacy is lost it can be difficult to regain. It does not matter what Hazare's record has been upto now, he will be judged on his actions in this particualr case. Its a gamble for sure.johnie1 said:
Just look at the reaction here, quite a few have opposed on these grounds, expand that up for the rest of the country and the reaction might be no different. You want as much support to keep the movement going as you can get not jeopardise it. Not give your opponents cause to spread FUD.
So you're saying this govt isn't legitimate then ? i dont know if you can make that assertion.johnie1 said:
Because its not clear to me what the support for lok pal even is.
But you will get your chance to make that choice when elections are called.
Until then its important to keep this movement clean. The more support there is the better the chances are of getting a lok pal.
If the govt had refused outright to even consider lok pal, if we lived in a dictatoship then things would have been different but as it stands thats not the case. The issue is that the govts version isn't tight enough. Well, then negotiate those differences away.
I'm not in a position to comment on either of these bills yet as i'm still making my way through them, so don't know if there is any truth to either parties positions.