Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.
So how many guys here went out for the Support/protest rally?
So how many guys here went out for the Support/protest rally?
Audiophi1le said:So how many guys here went out for the Support/protest rally?
You read it out of context.blr_p said:That means you would agree to anything, to achieve your aims.
I don't expect the powers to hand me the key and request me to jail them. That's not going to happen. The point is to push as much as we can. That way we compromise less and get more in the bargain.blr_p said:Its too one tracked & uncompromising, this is why there has not been a successful lok pal act to date.
This govt is legitimate but that does not stop it from refusing to prosecute some of it's own people because of this "coalition dharma" concept they prescribe to. We need to change with circumstances. We need to be pragmatics in this regard. The people of india will still get to vote and choose their leaders. This watchdog does not change that setup.blr_p said:The methods used are curucial if you desire to establish a justified, legitimate & enduring insititution.
That's complete false cause its out of context. See above.blr_p said:you said you did not care about democracy earlier, thats another win for the dissenters.
I don't think they have any intentions to abolish democracy. All they want is accountability.blr_p said:Those that would sacrifce democracy for the sake of tackling corruption are not fit to represent such a movement. They would have no qualms tearing up the consitition to acheive their aims.
I've disagreed with raman on many views in the past.blr_p said:No he hasn't but he's justifed the govts actions pretty succintly there, as someone like you is partial to his views i would hope the point has sunk in by now.
We have to agree to disagree on each others views on this point. Democracy is not god's word. I'll compromise some of it (but only to make things better)blr_p said:Its not about taking the side of govt, its about how you fight. How you fight speaks volumes of who you are and what you represent.
That's was in context of what kippu try to implyblr_p said:Irrelevant, we don't follow a jury model in our courts. We follow the british system.
pepps3484 said:I went and 2 of my friends as well...
broadway said:What I said is, I'm in favour of disregarding the democratic practices if it means to prosecute a corrupt democracy.
A corrupt democracy is not a democracy.
Shripad said:As far as bribery goes. We have reached to the bottom limit of the sinkhole. A honest man or businessman cannot start or run his business these days without bribery because without paying bribe, he cannot work. This has to stop somewhere and it began with RTI. It needs to get stronger and the next step is lokpal bill. After that the system needs to filter down to all government departments with stronger system at state and municipal levels.
Take a example of this, getting a simple VAT number for a local business. It should not cost a penny over the voluntary charges of Rs.5000 or 25000 (advanced tax for voluntary registration). Or Rs.500 is you are filing the VAT after turnover of 500000. Its very essential thing for any business doing retail or wholesale business. But you have to pay close to Rs.2k to get the damn form submitted and signed by the authority personal. Otherwise they will keep bumping you for days or will delay you to the end where you will get frustrated and end up paying whatever they want or will have to keep making multiple trips to ST office.
No, i haven'tbroadway said:You read it out of context.
the rule of law matters not to you. Ergo, you will do anything if it means prosecuting a corrupt democracy.broadway said:What I said is, I'm in favour of disregarding the democratic practices if it means to prosecute a corrupt democracy.
Explain that one to me ?broadway said:A corrupt democracy is not a democracy.
Push as much as you want but within the rules. Don't break them for the sake of a PR coup.broadway said:I don't expect the powers to hand me the key and request me to jail them. That's not going to happen. The point is to push as much as we can. That way we compromise less and get more in the bargain.
i have no probs with that. I'm not against an effective lok pal.broadway said:This govt is legitimate but that does not stop it from refusing to prosecute some of it's own people because of this "coalition dharma" concept they prescribe to. We need to change with circumstances. We need to be pragmatics in this regard. The people of india will still get to vote and choose their leaders. This watchdog does not change that setup.
no probs with this either especially the independent part.broadway said:All we are doing is appointing a watchdog(which is neither the bjp or the congress) and giving it powers to establish order in the administration department. Surely, you can agree with me that lokpal will be free from influence from any of the political parties. You are aware that I lean in favour of NDA simply because I see congress as the greater evil. This new authority not only threatens UPA but NDA too. The difficulty for me is to make you agree to compromise on your part because I've compromised on my part by taking a stand.
they may not have intentions to abolish democracy but their actions amount to it, especially in this latest instance. If they're ready to do it so early, i'm not going to feel very confident about the future. Common sense.broadway said:I don't think they have any intentions to abolish democracy. All they want is accountability.
then go about it the right way. i also think we need something like this.broadway said:In fact, I think an independent authority(with powers) overseeing govt administration is a f@#king awesome set up.
.broadway said:I've disagreed with raman on many views in the past.
i mean just look at that bolded bit, and the joke is you said that with a straight face. no respect for the rule of law.broadway said:We have to agree to disagree on each others views on this point. Democracy is not god's word. I'll compromise some of it (but only to make things better)
chiron said:Widening the scope of Lokpal to cover such low end instances would make the workload impossible to handle; where are they going to find people to do the job of following up on the hundreds of thousands of complaints that will immediately crop up? What about the institutions that will become redundant because of it; will the people working in those departments be absorbed into lokpal; wouldn't that mean they inherit all the failings of the previous system? imo the only way is to have a lot of scrutiny and accountability at the absolute top i.e. the centre alone rather than have a comprehensive scope as the jan lokpal.
blr_p said:A corrupt democracy is still very much a democracy. there is corruption everywhere, in fact a great deal more in non-democracies because there isn't any representation nor accountability. If you still disagree then India is a non-democracy for you which would be absurd.
I would say that is even more reason to follow the rules as the legitimacy of this movement derives from holding the moral high ground. Its very easy to attack this movement otherwise, once legitimacy is lost it can be difficult to regain. It does not matter what Hazare's record has been upto now, he will be judged on his actions in this particualr case. Its a gamble for sure.johnie1 said:I just read a gist of the comments made by you so not an answer to a specific bit but a general one.Yes I agree we should follow the rules and all but what if there is one set of rules for the powerful and another for the weak.Should we follow the rules?.As of now the executive,the judiciary and the executioners(read police etall) are all corrupt.Barring a few honest souls which i believe you can count on your fingers the whole system is rotten.So should we not overthrow the system and bring in a fresh system.Does not the end justify the means?
So you're saying this govt isn't legitimate then ? i dont know if you can make that assertion.johnie1 said:The corruption rite now affects us all.For eg take a small case.The bus fare in my state for eg was rs 5 for going from one point to another point.The same one is now 9 rs.A massive increase of 4 rs almost a 100 percent increase.Now could we have prevented it ie the fare hike.Yes if there was no corruption.The primeminister waxes eloquent saying the petroleum subsidy is taxing the exchequer and hence no solution except to increase the price.If the billions looted out of this country was utilized properly then there would have been no need to increase the petrol price or even if increase is needed then a small hike is needed.
So its affected everyone.Its squeezing the middle class to which i belong very hard.
If the govt cannot control inflation and does not want to tackle corruption(throwing kalmadi and raja out does not count)then this govt must go.