Apple M3 chip

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Interesting and funny to see length and breadth of ongoing discussions about having just very few GB extra RAM, which of course comes cheap, on one of the costliest devices from richest company in the world. I feel those who are hard-on wanting such devices should pay dearly for it and fully deserve it, in fact their dear manufacturer should charge more, the more they are billed, the more happy they have to be. Otherwise, they are holding it wrong.

@superczar

I don't know how successful framework laptop company will be. Seeing some interesting future through pushing from EU directive about reducing electronic wastage, common charging interfaces, etc. etc., with corporations finding that as a business model:

Lenovo exec promises 80 percent of its devices will be consumer-repairable by 2025

Verge: "Maybe it’s serious about going the Framework route?"

So, framework was able to at least set some narrative, perceptions may change in due time, probably.

New EU law to force smartphone makers to build easily replaceable batteries

Here goes the irreplaceable battery idea...
 
Don't think this is relevant in this context, if someone has physical access to your laptop, having soldered or non-soldered RAM/storage is the least of your worries. Most people don't want the security that CIA agents want. It all really boils down to control, Apple is able to exercise this level of control over their products because they have a huge captive market. For most of their customers, Apple is effectively the only option.

Not so with a current Apple device — if anyone has physical access to your password-protected icloud-enabled laptop, all they have is a paperweight worth maybe half the sum of its parts. In some older macs you could replace the EFI chip and bypass iCloud lock but you could not recover data of the original owner.

Apple lost most of the 'Pro' market when they were slow to upgrade the Mac Pro some years ago and it's been downhill since 2012. Apple stopped releasing sales numbers before the 2019 Mac Pro even launched, there's not that much demand by Pro users for Apple hardware – it's a different class of user that took over, the people with power/money. They're the driving force behind Apple's product lines and the reason why we have 8GB laptops that cost six digits today. Why would Apple release a 16GB base model if the 8GB model consistently sells the most?

A lifetime ago they were forced to up the specifications of newer models because they needed to build a customer base around OS X and we saw huge leaps in performance between the early 2000's up until the first Retina Macbook Pro. It was a slugglsh crawl since then up until Apple Silicon macs since they already had the high-paying customers they wanted. There's no indication of this changing so we're likely stuck with 8GB base models for now.

you know what else is much much easier to do without screwing over the consumers? swapping over the SSDs and shucking them when you are disposing the old laptops

How would you do that if you no longer had possession of the laptop? It's clear that Apple chose to intentionally make the storage non-removable and tightly integrated with the rest of the hardware to allow for failsafe remote wiping. The downside of no more upgradeable storage apparently wasn't a strong enough downside to make Apple think twice about this.

Also to note, it's only the desktop macs today that have replaceable storage modules, none of the laptops. Maybe a desktop is more difficult to steal than a laptop because with a laptop you need access to someone's bag while with a desktop you'll need access to their home/office which may or may not have surveillance. There are patterns to Apple's madness if you care enough to look.

I'm not even sure why are you and others even defending Apple's bullshit pricing and snorting a bunch of copium just to defend them.

Understanding ≠ Defending. Complaining about a ~200k product while still buying the ~200k product is a good indicator the product was not targeted for you.

I had 1TB on my aging Macbook Pro, I wanted 2TB of space on my M1, Apple wanted 80K for the upgrade. I didn't think 80k for 2TB was compatible with my financial situation, but I understood it makes sense for some people (and I wouldn't know anyone of them). For me, it made more sense to build a 3TB NVMe storage server with TrueNAS and setup 10G networking between it and my mini AND still have money left over for a nice dinner.

BTW, can you share any sources for this? first time I have heard of this and would like to read up on it. Also, you do know that EFI and storage are two very different things right? an UEFI/EFI rootkit doesnt need access to the storage for it work.

From your link (emphasis mine):

The researcher determined that an attacker could overwrite the contents of the BIOS from userland and install a rootkit simply by letting the computer sleep for a few seconds.

It's been a few years since this incident but code on the SSD is executed that accesses and modifies the EFI. Wiping either the EFI or the SSD does not remove it, you need to wipe both and even then you can't be sure unless if you replace the EFI chip. None of this is possible now with Apple Silicon, but it was very shocking to read about back then. Chronological reading:







We had a few Apple users so it was jarring to see they all needed a EFI update from Apple at the same time across both retina and non-retina macbook pros.

Even I am wondering how soldering SSD and memory will prevent EFI hack.

Two different things. Apple moved to non-removable memory years before moving to non-removable storage.

And there are many tutorials on YT on how to swap SSD on Mx Macs.

I don't see how the original data is still accessible. You got an upgrade, but no information from the user of the Mac, which was the premise behind the theory why storage is no longer user serviceable.
 
Thanks for this, I thought I wasn't pushing my M1 hard enough — but if 6% after 3 years on an 8GB is what you're seeing then my use case with a 16GB at 2% after two years probably means I'm punishing this machine.

I really do want more compute though, hopefully in a year or so I'll upgrade. My M1 purchase was done after a year after release and most of my computing purchases have been similarly staggered, I never purchase a first gen product and I always buy either a year old product or last-gen. The last time I bought the latest and greatest was with a 500MHz Pentium III in 1999 and I never made that mistake ever again (we had 1GHz processors eight months later).
why do you say you are punishing the machine.
2% wear after 2 years translates to 100 years on paper.

At the time of the ssdgate hype , I babied the machine for a month, then got tired of it and got back to usual usage.
Looking at the stats now, the ssd is surely not going to fail anytime within the expected lifespan of the laptop by a wide margin.
So why even bother
 
Not so with a current Apple device — if anyone has physical access to your password-protected icloud-enabled laptop, all they have is a paperweight worth maybe half the sum of its parts. In some older macs you could replace the EFI chip and bypass iCloud lock but you could not recover data of the original owner.
Encryption exists on non-apple products and is just as better, same with UEFI security, Windows has had it for a while now.
How would you do that if you no longer had possession of the laptop? It's clear that Apple chose to intentionally make the storage non-removable and tightly integrated with the rest of the hardware to allow for failsafe remote wiping. The downside of no more upgradeable storage apparently wasn't a strong enough downside to make Apple think twice about this.
Again, Encryption exists on non-Apple products too, And I'm not sure how it even remotely relates to your point of your "friend's mac being refused by his corpo"? Again copium at its finest, at least give semi-reasonable arguments my guy.
Also to note, it's only the desktop macs today that have replaceable storage modules, none of the laptops. Maybe a desktop is more difficult to steal than a laptop because with a laptop you need access to someone's bag while with a desktop you'll need access to their home/office which may or may not have surveillance. There are patterns to Apple's madness if you care enough to look.
What kind of reasoning is this anyways? you are making even less sense than before.
Understanding ≠ Defending. Complaining about a ~200k product while still buying the ~200k product is a good indicator the product was not targeted for you.
Nope, from my perspective its corium, oh and I don't own a Mac but I have used every series of Macs right from Intel based ones to M1 and M2 in my job. Also just because a hardware is not targeted towards me doesn't me I can't complain about the bullshit an OEM is shoving down our throats.
I had 1TB on my aging Macbook Pro, I wanted 2TB of space on my M1, Apple wanted 80K for the upgrade. I didn't think 80k for 2TB was compatible with my financial situation, but I understood it makes sense for some people (and I wouldn't know anyone of them). For me, it made more sense to build a 3TB NVMe storage server with TrueNAS and setup 10G networking between it and my mini AND still have money left over for a nice dinner.
and you are just proving my point my guy, A top of the line 4tb Gen4 SSD can easily be had in under 40k and a 2TB under 20k, and yet Apple is charging 80K for it. it's just getting sadder.
From your link (emphasis mine):

It's been a few years since this incident but code on the SSD is executed that accesses and modifies the EFI. Wiping either the EFI or the SSD does not remove it, you need to wipe both and even then you can't be sure unless if you replace the EFI chip. None of this is possible now with Apple Silicon, but it was very shocking to read about back then. Chronological reading:







We had a few Apple users so it was jarring to see they all needed a EFI update from Apple at the same time across both retina and non-retina macbook pros.
You do know that it's pretty common across all platforms and OS'es? some unknown vulnerability is found and its quickly patched out with a series of updates? and you still haven't shown me any proof or reading where Apple Silicon specifically mitigates it by having non-removable storage/memory aside from "trust me bro". and it'll happen for Apple Silicon too, its just par for the course.
Two different things. Apple moved to non-removable memory years before moving to non-removable storage.
Again, you are avoiding the point.
I don't see how the original data is still accessible. You got an upgrade, but no information from the user of the Mac, which was the premise behind the theory why storage is no longer user serviceable.
Encryption and MDMs have existed for a long while now which is accomplishing the very same thing that you have been saying Apple does with their non removable storage and with ease.

P.S. you can easily take a backup of your data before you swap out the SSDs. Thus having your data if I am getting your point right. Otherwise, if its how a thief wont have access to your data then normal encryption will accomplish the same thing,
 
I don't own a Mac

Well then you could've just said so! The "copium" I'm sprouting was supposed to be for someone who wanted to better understand Apple's product strategies. I've owned two desktops and seven laptops and several hackintoshes over the years and it took me a while to make sense of Apple's decisions.

Nothing I said would even register as remotely convincing to someone who hasn't spent their own money, whether out of need or out of curiosity, on an Apple computer.

I grew up with windows and DOS and experimented with OS X with the first intel release in 2006, having converted my gaming desktop into a hackintosh after removing the graphics card and sound card. I just love the system wide automations and scripting, I use it every day. I like one-click workflows. It's the love of Apple software that's kept me on Apple hardware all these years, partway being frustrated and partway trying to understand.

But to quickly answer a few of your points, succinctly:

Encryption exists on non-apple products and is just as better, same with UEFI security, Windows has had it for a while now.

Encryption by third parties. Windows, PC, overall is not a closed system where one entity controls both the hardware and software. Sure, it's industry proven and accepted, but it's not nearly the same. Look at how many backdoor and encryption keys have been leaked over the years because of too many chefs in the kitchen — remember 09 F9?


What's to say there isn't a backdoor somewhere? It's the same risk with Apple, they could have a backdoor as well, but with Apple, it's one company to trust vs many.

"friend's mac being refused by his corpo"

There's no more to the story than what I said.

What kind of reasoning is this anyways? you are making even less sense than before.

I suppose you've never travelled with a laptop in a backpack before?

Apple is charging 80K for it. it's just getting sadder.

What does it matter to you if you're not buying it? Do we see people complaining about expensive watches when a casio tells you the same exact time? Price points exist, some within reach and some far out of reach. 80K on an SSD upgrade didn't make sense for me so I moved on and spent that 80K on something that did make sense to me.

You do know that it's pretty common across all platforms and OS'es?

At this point you're being disingenuous on purpose.

Apple Silicon specifically mitigates it by having non-removable storage/memory

Again, there's enough information in my posts for you independently verify what I've said but as you're not an apple user, you're not inclined to do so. That's fine, I wouldn't have made the effort if I had known you didn't personally own any Apple computers.

why do you say you are punishing the machine.
2% wear after 2 years translates to 100 years on paper.

At the time of the ssdgate hype , I babied the machine for a month, then got tired of it and got back to usual usage.
Looking at the stats now, the ssd is surely not going to fail anytime within the expected lifespan of the laptop by a wide margin.
So why even bother

I sometimes have an impostor syndrome and I think that I'm not using the hardware I have to the fullest potential. I thought the 2% wear of my SSD was wrong since i expected more deterioration. But with your numbers of 6% with an 8GB machine over three years, it makes me believe that 2% of wear over two years with a 16GB machine is a significant enough number to be a correct value.

And yes, both yours and mine will outlast either of us, probably — which is excellent to know.
 
Well then you could've just said so! The "copium" I'm sprouting was supposed to be for someone who wanted to better understand Apple's product strategies. I've owned two desktops and seven laptops and several hackintoshes over the years and it took me a while to make sense of Apple's decisions.

Nothing I said would even register as remotely convincing to someone who hasn't spent their own money, whether out of need or out of curiosity, on an Apple computer.
yep, copium it is, if you cant even grasp just how ridiculous you sound defending a company who's decided to fleece as much as they can out of their customers.
I grew up with windows and DOS and experimented with OS X with the first intel release in 2006, having converted my gaming desktop into a hackintosh after removing the graphics card and sound card. I just love the system wide automations and scripting, I use it every day. I like one-click workflows. It's the love of Apple software that's kept me on Apple hardware all these years, partway being frustrated and partway trying to understand.
and? None of this explains Apple's bullshit pricing that you are working so hard on defending. People can easily love their products yet criticize the decisions behind it,
But to quickly answer a few of your points, succinctly:

Encryption by third parties. Windows, PC, overall is not a closed system where one entity controls both the hardware and software. Sure, it's industry proven and accepted, but it's not nearly the same. Look at how many backdoor and encryption keys have been leaked over the years because of too many chefs in the kitchen — remember 09 F9?

You do know that apple uses a standard AES-256 encryption on their products? And you are quoting me an article from 2007 to defend your so called "closed system superiority". Do even know how stuff like this even works?
What's to say there isn't a backdoor somewhere? It's the same risk with Apple, they could have a backdoor as well, but with Apple, it's one company to trust vs many.
Apple has been known and proven to have leaked user data to the governments worldwide already. You sure picked a good company to "trust"
There's no more to the story than what I said.



I suppose you've never travelled with a laptop in a backpack before?
I do regularly with my legion slim 7i and yes apple has a very big edge over other OEMs on this, none of us is denying that.
What does it matter to you if you're not buying it? Do we see people complaining about expensive watches when a casio tells you the same exact time? Price points exist, some within reach and some far out of reach. 80K on an SSD upgrade didn't make sense for me so I moved on and spent that 80K on something that did make sense to me.
Yep it sure is the same.
At this point you're being disingenuous on purpose.
No, I'm not, go look it up. Its standard MO and there's an entire field dedicated to it for a reason.
Again, there's enough information in my posts for you independently verify what I've said but as you're not an apple user, you're not inclined to do so. That's fine, I wouldn't have made the effort if I had known you didn't personally own any Apple computers.
Please assume I am a grade A idiot. Now can you ELI5 me how exactly does the apple silicon mitigates it, none of your posts right from the very beginning have explained this or even shared any sources related to it despite me and other members asking for it, but yeah, my experience doesn't count since I don't "own" a mac. pfft ok,
 
Well then you could've just said so! The "copium" I'm sprouting was supposed to be for someone who wanted to better understand Apple's product strategies. I've owned two desktops and seven laptops and several hackintoshes over the years and it took me a while to make sense of Apple's decisions.

Nothing I said would even register as remotely convincing to someone who hasn't spent their own money, whether out of need or out of curiosity, on an Apple computer.

I grew up with windows and DOS and experimented with OS X with the first intel release in 2006, having converted my gaming desktop into a hackintosh after removing the graphics card and sound card. I just love the system wide automations and scripting, I use it every day. I like one-click workflows. It's the love of Apple software that's kept me on Apple hardware all these years, partway being frustrated and partway trying to understand.
Convince me then. I owned couple of laptops, Mac mini, Macs and built countless desktops for friends and cousins from 1990s. If you think this is not enough, automation is what I am paid for. I don't know why you are bringing theft, EFI, encryption and all into a discussion where we are saying that 8GB on a 1.7L MacBook Pro is just not right. Security and privacy are one of the reasons why I shifted completely to Apple ecosystem (other than integration) and it does not mean that Apple can fleece me left and right. Apple's Mac sales are down due to this very reason and if they continue to go down this path where the only way one can get desired performance in MacBook Pro is by paying 3L or more, the only MacBook sales will be that of M1 MacBook Air for 70k during Flipkart sale. I have not even talked about how much Apple charges for enterprise devices/support. "I was told that" they absolutely fleece corporates in the name of enterprise support. Probably one of the reasons why my parent company gives Macs only to those who does iOS development and everyone else is getting Dells and Thinkpads.
Understanding ≠ Defending. Complaining about a ~200k product while still buying the ~200k product is a good indicator the product was not targeted for you.
What? Reminds me of 'you are holding it wrong' statement from Apple. Paying 2.1L + 20k for Apple Care hurt my wallet (I paid without using credit card) and there was no choice for me. There are countless such buyers who are buying because of the need.
Interesting and funny to see length and breadth of ongoing discussions about having just very few GB extra RAM, which of course comes cheap, on one of the costliest devices from richest company in the world. I feel those who are hard-on wanting such devices should pay dearly for it and fully deserve it, in fact their dear manufacturer should charge more, the more they are billed, the more happy they have to be. Otherwise, they are holding it wrong.
ROFLMAO. Nailed the sarcasm. People justifying this saying 'there is a reason' is annoying, then comes mansplaining (to other men who are techies) about Mx architecture to justify these actions.
 
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Your arguments and frustration are valid and shared by many but the computing needs of people like us barely make for a single digit percentage of Apple's customer base.

Also, the parallels between PC hardware and Apple Silicon hardware are not entirely compatible.

8GB easily becomes constrained on a windows computer, but not necessarily so on an Apple Silicon system. Similarly SSD caching on an Apple Silicon system is not even close to the lagginess you'd see on a Windows computer. Apple doesn't use NVMe or AHCI to access storage — the nand chips interface directly with the processor. There's no protocol overhead or controller latency involved. Would a regular/pro user notice SSD caching on a single screen system? Early M1 power users didn't even know it was happening until they started looking at the TBW numbers on their SSD.

Tangentially relevant: https://dariuszwojcik.medium.com/the-life-expectancy-of-ssd-in-m1-macbook-ef1aa7e250a3

And it's not like I'm speaking hypothetically, my M1 is caching to disk all the time even with 16GB of memory (and I barely notice it — probably because I have too many screens to look at):

View attachment 182647

View attachment 182648

And that is without any of my image editing apps open, I'm just catching up on stuff that happened while I was asleep.

It's probably fair to say that Apple thinks you'll upgrade your Macbook before SSD wear and tear becomes a factor (likely 6 to 9 years). Apple does have experience from their iOS devices to make this prediction, it's not like they're stubbornly sticking to 8GB with no precedent. On Apple's scale, of course you'd prioritize the model with the lowest manufacturing cost and highest profit and most units sold. That was their reasoning when they killed the 17" Macbook Pro, it accounted for something like 2% of sales (it was my favourite computer of all time). The lowest tier model has had non-upgradeable 8GB for a decade now and people have been buying them for a decade so Apple keeps making them.

Most buyers of the base tier models aren't demanding professionals — those, like yourself, will pay more for 16GB memory, for which Apple is eager to charge. But for every one of us who does pay for the 16GB upgrade, there's probably 999 or 9999 others who are oblivious/happy with 8GB. 'Pro' has become a status symbol so buyers are gravitating to the 'Pro' models over the non-pro. It's a purchasing mentality that carried over from the iPhones. Remember, Apple's mainstream/core user base aren't buying workstation replacements, they're buying laptops.

I'm starting to believe that Apple's higher priced upgrades have little to do with the upgrade itself but overhead of their manufacturing to produce a SKU with non-standard specifications. Kind of like how you can get your initials embroidered on the headrest of a luxury car, for an additional price (it's never free or complimentary).





It's actually non-native apps (screenshot before I moved to remoting into a windows box for these apps):

View attachment 182644

M1 handles displaylink adapters a lot better than expected. CPU usage right now playing video on a displaylink screen:

View attachment 182650



Apparently I didn't notice that the M1 did actually ran out of memory and was caching to disk, ha.
what app is this?
 
Also to note, it's only the desktop macs today that have replaceable storage modules, none of the laptops. Maybe a desktop is more difficult to steal than a laptop because with a laptop you need access to someone's bag while with a desktop you'll need access to their home/office which may or may not have surveillance. There are patterns to Apple's madness if you care enough to look.
Only on Mac Studio. You cannot upgrade in Mac Mini.
I don't see how the original data is still accessible. You got an upgrade, but no information from the user of the Mac, which was the premise behind the theory why storage is no longer user serviceable.
Bhai, you made khichdi by mixing up data theft, device theft and architecture.
1. Device theft is the biggest challenge for most premium hardware users. Did any of Apple's security implementations stop thieves from targeting MacBooks? No. They salvage whatever they can. Actually, selling MBP in parts gets middle men more money than selling entire Windows laptop. Those who steal devices this way are least bothered about what's on the laptop unless it is something that can get them lot of money (private stuff, IP etc).
2. Data Theft: Those who really want to target someone to steal data, do you think they do this by trying to seal their Mac? Almost all data theft these days happen through injection of malware. One mail asking unsuspecting user to verify something is enough to get onboard. And this continues to happen to laptops users, Mac users and even Linux users.
3. Soldering has no use related to security of data on storage. This is the fact. As the storage is heavily encrypted, soldering has nothing to do with security. One can remove soldered SSD and try to decrypt using brute force, the same way they can remove SSD from NVMe or M.2 SSD. If one stole Mac for what's on it, they would target the storage, not the memory.
4. Soldering has no SSD speed advantage. See the screenshot below from Dell XPS vs MBP. Soldering storage does not give any speed advantage, whatsoever. It actually costs less for Apple to add more storage as their storage modules does not have DRAM or controller (moved to SIP). Yet, they charge so much to upgrade storage (60k rupees for 2TB that does not have DRAM or controller is ROFLMAO stuff).
5. The proper advantage that Apple has compared to x86 is w.r.t memory bandwidth as memory modules are integrated into SiP and this gives them distinct performance advantage. As memory is part of SIP, there is no way one can upgrade memory (unlike hack to upgrade SSD and then use Apple recovery from another Mac to restore your Mac). You are stuck for life with that memory on that Mac. Now, 512GB of storage is good enough for OS and other basic storage and one can get TB4 dock and SSDs if they need more data storage. 8GB memory is just not enough and there is no way one can expand memory. This is why giving 8GB memory on a 1.7L MBP is disgusting act from Apple. It has nothing to do with security or safety.

1699845036777.png
 
Convince me then. I owned couple of laptops, Mac mini, Macs and built countless desktops for friends and cousins from 1990s. If you think this is not enough, automation is what I am paid for. I don't know why you are bringing theft, EFI, encryption and all into a discussion where we are saying that 8GB on a 1.7L MacBook Pro is just not right. Security and privacy are one of the reasons why I shifted completely to Apple ecosystem (other than integration) and it does not mean that Apple can fleece me left and right.
Agreed with everything except privacy, Mac is just as bad as Windows in this regard. try logging your network calls sometimes and you'll see. Case in point. You could always use a debloated windows or Linux but I can see how that will strictly fall in the power users category and 99% of the people out there won't be able to handle it on a daily basis, As for security, it always comes down to the end user in regard, afaik Mac doesnt do anything different or did you mean that how its locked down by default unlike windows or linux? That would make sense ig.
 
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what app is this?


It's probably half the reason why I'm on macOS.

@desiibond @altair21 To repeat myself, I'm not defending Apple's decision of selling a six digit laptop with 8GB of memory today. I'm saying they're selling it because people are buying it, and it's their best seller, and @superczar's anecdote of 6% SSD wear caused by swapping to disk on an 8GB model over three years shows there's little if any downsides to an 8GB machine with Apple Silicon running macOS.

You could rail and rant and point and shame but it doesn't change the fact that the 8GB model is the best selling model, and people continue to buy it. Maybe the average Mac customer isn't as tech savvy as the average PC customer, maybe they don't notice the disk swapping (I certainly don't), maybe the software is just so good that they don't care. Whatever the reason could be, it doesn't stop the masses from buying a 8GB laptop from Apple. When people stop buying the 8GB model, Apple will probably stop making it. It's happened before with previous models. It's definitely not happening in 2023 though.

None of the above can possibly be construed as me "defending" a company. It's a statement of facts.

As for pricing, it's subjective — if something is worth it to you, you'd buy it. I don't know why this is such a difficult concept for "techies" to understand. But to buy and complain about it, that's just silly. Life has far more meaningful pursuits.

I might have been one of those people at some point, I remember selling my $1100 white Macbook within a year to buy an upgradeable Mac mini and a Powerbook G4 because I could not sleep peacefully at night knowing I had a $1100 base model laptop with a non-upgradeable processor. Both the mini and powerbook were covered in the cost of selling the Macbook and I was very happy with the decision for many years.

My M1 mini was bought on EMI at a time when I was earning maybe 20k a month (hospitals had a post covid slump). It wasn't an easy decision to upgrade to 16GB and 10G upfront but two years later, I'm very happy with my purchase.

Bhai, you made khichdi by mixing up data theft, device theft and architecture.

It does appear that way.

1. Device theft

Apple doesn't care about device theft, no hardware company does. They only want the customer to come back to them to replace their stolen device. Apple focussed on this with non-removable storage and memory to allow for failsafe remote wiping. Maybe if a customer knew their data was not compromised, they'd blame the theft on bad karma and go buy a second laptop from Apple.

2. Data Theft

Apple doesn't care about user stupidity naivety. Their responsibility ends with their product — hardware and software. So long as they've locked down their product as best they can, the user is free to be as stupid naive as he or she wants to be.

4. Soldering has no SSD speed advantage.

Yes, that's painfully obvious across both Macs and PCs. Hopefully no one out there made this claim.

I'd even go far as to state that the largest downside of the Apple Silicon architecture is that we'll never see the storage speeds we see on PCs. The SoC is just limited in how fast it can access storage even with the integrated controller. Storage speeds on Apple Silicon will always be behind the latest and greatest because the entire SoC needs be redesigned/upgraded vs an open standard like PCIe where you can slot in a faster drive.

3. Soldering has no use related to security of data on storage.

Not so, but there's an important distinction here to be made. If both the storage controller and storage chips are non-removable then that's just a slight hindrance for anyone after your data. You could argue that stealing an M.2 is easier than using a SMD rework station to attach thin copper wires to the PCIe lanes of a soldered on SSD and trying to access it that way.

But what would someone do with just nandchips on the motherboard without a controller? They'll need to perform surgery on the SoC and extract the controller and reverse engineer it and you can see how it's easier for someone just to revert to social engineering or malware instead (point 2 of yours above).

In that case Apple's closed hardware system did thwart the efforts of this hypothetical data thief — the soldered on design with controller being part of the SoC makes hardware a difficult attack vector when social engineering is far more straightforward. Which was the entire point I was trying to make with @altair21

And you are quoting me an article from 2007 to defend your so called "closed system superiority".

To put it abstractly, one entity being held accountable is better than multiple entities being held accountable — do you disagree with this concept?

You do know that it's pretty common across all platforms and OS'es?

Except it wasn't common on Macs. Infact:

World’s first (known) bootkit for OS X can permanently backdoor Macs

It's literally right there in the title of the first link — there had been no reports of such an exploit in the ~15 years of computing history of OS X.

Doesn't it make sense that such attempts can be mitigated by closing off access to memory and storage?

I'm starting to question my sanity here — are these not basic concepts of computing and security?

The less entry points you have for an attack vector, the less successful the attack becomes?

Only on Mac Studio. You cannot upgrade in Mac Mini.

And Mac Pro. That's such a beautiful computer, I don't need it but I definitely want it — the rack mount version. Maybe in a few years I'd be able to pick one up second hand. Wishful thinking.

The 2013 Mac Pro is now available for under 40K used these days, It's so tempting to pick up that piece of computing history even though it's so outdated.
 
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afaik Mac doesnt do anything different or did you mean that how its locked down by default unlike windows or linux? That would make sense ig.
Nice discussion so far but I also see some misconceptions.
I presume you mean the software / OS here. What exactly do you mean by locked down?
 
I don’t think most of us are so important that our data means much, and soldered SSDs are just consumer unfriendly, specially at Apple prices.
It is far easier to get exploited via social media or phishing attempts which happen en masse, and the old adage PEBKAM still holds true.
Just accept that Apple is fleecing us off with these prices. They can get away with it. It’s not rocket science. Their services part is anyway on the way to match and possibly overtake iPhone revenue in a few years - it makes sense if they want to ship the lowest configs possible - iCloud is making lots of money, and if local storage, pony up with Apple tax.
And even then, availability is a joke. Was in Miami area the whole previous week and no seller had 16 inch 1 TB models with M3 Pro. Waiting of at least 4 weeks - M2 Pro/M1 Pro never had these issues with 1 TB models.
At most stages, you begrudgingly pay the Apple tax because of the experience (and certain level of trust), but gimping of M3 Pro and putting 8gigs of RAM in base “Pro” model - only to push people to M3 Max models - is just putting a sour taste, even for Apple. The greed is overflowing to an extent where it cannot be hidden under corporate statements.
 
You could rail and rant and point and shame but it doesn't change the fact that the 8GB model is the best selling model, and people continue to buy it. Maybe the average Mac customer isn't as tech savvy as the average PC customer, maybe they don't notice the disk swapping (I certainly don't), maybe the software is just so good that they don't care. Whatever the reason could be, it doesn't stop the masses from buying a 8GB laptop from Apple. When people stop buying the 8GB model, Apple will probably stop making it. It's happened before with previous models. It's definitely not happening in 2023 though.
Again, I am not talking about 8GB MBA. Previous base MBP with that older design (without notch) was one of the worst selling MBPs ever. The actual base MBP had 16GB of memory and 512GB of storage. What people do with MBA is not at all my concern. My anger is solely on Apple giving 8GB memory on base MBP. They should have just called it MBP - Starbucks edition. :D as there is nothing in it for Pro users, except for flashing at Starbucks.
Apple doesn't care about device theft, no hardware company does. They only want the customer to come back to them to replace their stolen device. Apple focussed on this with non-removable storage and memory to allow for failsafe remote wiping. Maybe if a customer knew their data was not compromised, they'd blame the theft on bad karma and go buy a second laptop from Apple.
They do emphasize a lot on theft. Have you seen their (hilarious) Apple@Work video where one of the employees loses her Mac and they use Find My Device option to track and recover it? It is kind of brilliant that even if it is not connected to any network, it will still post its location using Wi-Fi positioning system and Skyhook database. I think iPhones continue to transmit even when they are powered off (have to enable that from settings).
Yes, that's painfully obvious across both Macs and PCs. Hopefully no one out there made this claim.
Again, Apple boasted a lot about the speed of their SSD and how their new architecture makes is super fast. Have to revisit their keynotes to find out where they did this. It was kind of true when M1 came out and Apple used blazing fast NAND modules. But soon, PC makers woke up and started using similar NAND storage. It turned out to be more due to how fast their NAND was.
I'd even go far as to state that the largest downside of the Apple Silicon architecture is that we'll never see the storage speeds we see on PCs. The SoC is just limited in how fast it can access storage even with the integrated controller. Storage speeds on Apple Silicon will always be behind the latest and greatest because the entire SoC needs be redesigned/upgraded vs an open standard like PCIe where you can slot in a faster drive.
Yes, as long as long as PCIe supports those speeds, right?
Not so, but there's an important distinction here to be made. If both the storage controller and storage chips are non-removable then that's just a slight hindrance for anyone after your data. You could argue that stealing an M.2 is easier than using a SMD rework station to attach thin copper wires to the PCIe lanes of a soldered on SSD and trying to access it that way.

But what would someone do with just nandchips on the motherboard without a controller? They'll need to perform surgery on the SoC and extract the controller and reverse engineer it and you can see how it's easier for someone just to revert to social engineering or malware instead (point 2 of yours above).
No need to perform surgery or whatever. There are devices that can be used to do what we call 'direct read' of NAND storage. If one knows the pin layout of that NAND memory used, they can map that entire NAND storage and start doing brute force decryption. Not impossible and not easy. But if one really really want to get what is on MacBook of say big tech exec or some celebrity, they can do it. Bhai, we are in a world where a server hidden deep in secure networks with firewall behind firewall is getting hacked. Getting data from stolen NAND memory will not be impossible.
 
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Nice discussion so far but I also see some misconceptions.
I presume you mean the software / OS here. What exactly do you mean by locked down?
yep, I meant stuff like unsigned apps are not allowed, (you gotta finagle with some scripts/settings last time I checked), whereas in Linux and to a large extent in Windows, its like the wild west out there, And in general too, MacOS has a bit more of an anal perspective when it comes to even stuff like peripherals, I remember updating to Ventura and none of my external peripherals working (there was a new security setting I had to enable for it to work) and stuff in general. I'll add more to this as and when I recall it but this is what comes to my mind right now.

It's literally right there in the title of the first link — there had been no reports of such an exploit in the ~15 years of computing history of OS X.

Doesn't it make sense that such attempts can be mitigated by closing off access to memory and storage?

I'm starting to question my sanity here — are these not basic concepts of computing and security?

The less entry points you have for an attack vector, the less successful the attack becomes?
You are mixing stuff up, the better reason is the user footprint, the vast majority of users are on windows, hence the attacks are more there because you can target a wider base of users. And as for closing off access to Memory and storage, you are not "closing" off any potential attack vector which is what you are not getting. Soldering stuff to the motherboard does not mean that you have closed down that particular attack vector. Do you think that Apple is manufacturing all this stuff in house instead of outsourcing them to third parties like all of the other OEMs? what difference does it make when in the end you are outsourcing this kind of stuff anyways.

Except it wasn't common on Macs. Infact:
You are incorrectly correlating two different things. Look at this article if you wanna see just how "secure" Apple's systems are.
Just accept that Apple is fleecing us off with these prices. They can get away with it. It’s not rocket science. Their services part is anyway on the way to match and possibly overtake iPhone revenue in a few years - it makes sense if they want to ship the lowest configs possible - iCloud is making lots of money, and if local storage, pony up with Apple tax.
And even then, availability is a joke. Was in Miami area the whole previous week and no seller had 16 inch 1 TB models with M3 Pro. Waiting of at least 4 weeks - M2 Pro/M1 Pro never had these issues with 1 TB models.
At most stages, you begrudgingly pay the Apple tax because of the experience (and certain level of trust), but gimping of M3 Pro and putting 8gigs of RAM in base “Pro” model - only to push people to M3 Max models - is just putting a sour taste, even for Apple. The greed is overflowing to an extent where it cannot be hidden under corporate statements.
yep, I get why people want Macs but not to this extent, and anyways why defend something so vehemently, especially an OEM which is probably the most anti-consumer OEM on the planet and when they are screwing you over and you are literally cheering them on while they do so.
 
yep, I meant stuff like unsigned apps are not allowed, (you gotta finagle with some scripts/settings last time I checked), whereas in Linux and to a large extent in Windows, its like the wild west out there, And in general too, MacOS has a bit more of an anal perspective when it comes to even stuff like peripherals, I remember updating to Ventura and none of my external peripherals working (there was a new security setting I had to enable for it to work) and stuff in general. I'll add more to this as and when I recall it but this is what comes to my mind right now.
err, no and no.
windows 11 often pops a warning showing this app is not comonly used etc etc - so you click on more info and proceed anyway.
on Mac OS, it says unsigned app.. so you right click on app and proceed anyway.

As for peripherals, Windows will give you no warning as such when you attach a new peripheral.
Mac OS will give you a warning and ask for authentication asking if you want to give access to a new peripheral when pluuging it in for the first time.
If you think the latter approach is incorrect being anal about security then I don’t know what else to say.

anyway , the thread seems to have digressed quite a bit .. And for the record, I am saying the same thing as most of us here are - which is that the M3 MBP should have had 16GB for the moniker and price point.
That commerical aspect however does not make the OS (and other SKUs) trash :tearsofjoy:
 
windows 11 often pops a warning showing this app is not comonly used etc etc - so you click on more info and proceed anyway.
on Mac OS, it says unsigned app.. so you right click on app and proceed anyway.
haven't used any unsigned apps or even many signed ones since my org locks down our devices pretty tightly with MDMs, but when I did have access to one (pre-covid), you definitely had to finagle a bit to get it working, Glad to see its changed tho.
if you think the latter approach is incorrect being anal about security then I don’t know what else to say.
I said its mac being anal not that it was wrong, personally for me thats just overkill since Apple updates specially in Ventura and Monterey have randomly blocked external peripherals from working with many users including me scrambling around to fix it because my Mac decided it won't trust a mouse or a display connected to it. You are far far more likely to get malware from storage devices where this approach makes absolute sense to me but for a simple peripheral? Nah. BTW have there been any cases where a user got hacked because they inserted a bad mouse or something? I haven't heard of anything like that
 
haven't used any unsigned apps or even many signed ones since my org locks down our devices pretty tightly with MDMs, but when I did have access to one (pre-covid), you definitely had to finagle a bit to get it working, Glad to see its changed tho.

I said its mac being anal not that it was wrong, personally for me thats just overkill since Apple updates specially in Ventura and Monterey have randomly blocked external peripherals from working with many users including me scrambling around to fix it because my Mac decided it won't trust a mouse or a display connected to it. You are far far more likely to get malware from storage devices where this approach makes absolute sense to me but for a simple peripheral? Nah. BTW have there been any cases where a user got hacked because they inserted a bad mouse or something? I haven't heard of anything like that
I still don’t get it..you yourself admit that you have experienced the locked down aspect because of MDM ..

On a normal end user device, there is no finagling to unblock anything.. never was... You try run an unsigned software downloaded from wherever, you approve it one time with a single right click.

You plugin a new peripheral , you approve it one time with a single click. That’s it.
Surely a mouse click on a approval popup doesn’t qualify as “scrambling around for a fix”?

OTOH, digging around the arcane registry to make a PC behave the way I want it to (eg not force updates down my throat at random times) -
or running into random odd behaviour - and being told to run sfc / scannow for everything?
now what is what i would i call scrambling around for a fix :tearsofjoy:

On a side note, of course MDM will make any machine locked down depending on org policies regardless of Windows or Mac .. I mean there is an actual market for BT adapters that are seen by PCs as a headset just coz most MDM by default blocks regular BT headsets

Also, Have you actually used a personal Mac? It seems to me a lot of your bad experience stems from trying to use a org policy locked down machine as a normal one - which is a rather unusual way to judge how limiting or open an OS is
 
OTOH, digging around the arcane registry to make a PC behave the way I want it to (eg not force updates down my throat at random times) -
or running into random odd behaviour - and being told to run sfc / scannow for everything?
Time for you to upgrade from windows 98.. its been decades Microsoft obsoletes that OS.

Nevertheless, not sure why these kind of posts exist in a thread where the discussion is about Apple's decision to list 8GB variant in pro model.
 
OTOH, digging around the arcane registry to make a PC behave the way I want it to (eg not force updates down my throat at random times) -
or running into random odd behaviour - and being told to run sfc / scannow for everything?
now what is what i would i call scrambling around for a fix :tearsofjoy:
Let me rephrase, what I meant by "scrambling around for a fix" was when after the update, none of my devices would connect despite me removing the cable and inserting it multiple times with no popup despite me forcing the setting to allow all peripherals to connect and it still wouldn't work, so after hours of digging around and multiple restarts it suddenly decides to start working, I'm not gonna argue about windows registry fixes for simple stuff because thats equally idiotic.

P.S. Windows no longer forces you to update as long as you have updated atleast once in 6 months or there's no urgent security fix.

Also, Have you actually used a personal Mac? It seems to me a lot of your bad experience stems from trying to use a org policy locked down machine as a normal one - which is a rather unusual way to judge how limiting or open an OS is
Not personale per se but I worked in a startup and they just gave me a sealed mac as a work device with no mdm or anything where I did most of my experiments, so it was kinda a personal device ig.
 
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