Well I am surprised that you are surprised. Many a times, a clear succinct request does not work as a deterrent. The reality of the streets and the rotted mindset of the Indian male-mind is far from this. Sorry to say.
Delhi gang-rapists sentenced to death
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ithehappy
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sid_donnydarko
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It didn't work in mine either. Even though i had a choice, which do you think would've been more constructive - calling the cops to set an example in my area (or) bruising an ego.
Its sad that the victims weren't given a choice. But that doesn't mean that we should limit our thinking as well.
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Oracle
If you want to get abstract there is persuasion, distraction, diversion, blocking and then either standing your ground or running. Will take incredible presence of mind to pull off the first four. The usual reaction is the last two.
Yes, and this "case" of yours happens, day-in/day-out; 24x7 on the streets of India....! That is what the protests were for, and the cup had brimmed over. What is wrong with you...? You live in Europe or some Scandinavian nation, to be so indifferent and not realize this (though you said: you do, but it does not seem so). The mind-set of Indian men = gangrene. And it has been for years. It has to be cut off. Giving a chance and letting people rehabilitate will never work. We have moved beyond that thin-red line, of getting a second chance. This audacity and attitude towards women has been continuing for centuries, and is actually worsening as India become more corrupt and liability of a crime is null. For most rapists (I can bet you); life in the slammer is equivalent to out on the owl-hoot. People walk around with this attitude. Molesting a girl (or raping); is equivalent to jumping a light in India. I really do not see how managing these people in a less chronic manner will change our society. Some articles of society have to be put away for good, and people have to realize that. It is exemplification along with purgatory, coupled with penance.
There is usually no cop around, or enough time in situations like this. What is prevalent here about ego..? I do not see that paradigm..?
malhotraraul
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sid_donnydarko
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My earlier response was about the Delhi gang-rape victims. Terrible what happened to them. Giving into CP by allowing yourself to think that it may happen to any one of us is not progressive thinking.
http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.in/2010/05/circling-behavioral-drain.html
This is what is happening to our country. Everyone who is supporting the death penalty on this thread, including yourself, are trapped inside a behavioral sink. That is why you cannot see beyond the death penalty and the fact that constructive measures like increasing patrol duty, increasing the size of the police-force, restructuring laws, etc elude you is proof that your attitude is affected by external factors. Does anyone even realize that this was the first crime committed by the likes of a bus-driver, a gym instructor, a fruit seller and a juvenile with no past history of violence. They're just ordinary people, no different from anyone on this thread except in social-standing, committing violent acts of crime.
http://www.dw.de/the-death-penalty-is-not-the-solution/a-17087181
FYI, women in India were treated much better before independence. Our's is an isolated and insular culture that was fine until the Britishers came along. Hinduism is primitive only when directly compared to modern western culture. Otherwise Hinduism is fine by itself in isolation.
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Oracle
What would you do ?[DOUBLEPOST=1380117985][/DOUBLEPOST]
Sati ?
How do you know it was better before independence ?
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Not to mention the caste system. I think it is the inherent xenophobia of most Indians that also makes them associate every shortcoming with the invasions.
sid_donnydarko
Contributor
Why do i get the feeling you're painting a bullseye on my forehead? Like i said before, the pitfalls of Hinduism, however many, only come to light when compared with the principles of the west. Western influence or not, however early/late or however large/small, our country will still go through the phase its going through right now. Sati or no sati, there's no denying that women were treated much better pre-independence and possibly even better before the british rule.
Nobody complained about the caste system back then because it was a way of life. People were happy doing what society (including the family they were born into) expected of them.
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Oracle
Want to understand how you know women were better off. You asserted it so give some backing.
Its not just in India or hinduism, women have only started to matter since WW1 in the west. Shortly after they got the right to vote. That's the general trend worldwide. Right to vote was a watershed moment for women because no voice means no say in any decisions that get made.
Sorry, that doesn't make any rational sense at all.
You put aside Sati like it is a joke, while it is a serious proof of how women were treated back them; a property that belonged to men, and which needed to be taken care of in the absence of its owner. Burning someone alive is one of the most horrific way to kill them, let alone executing them.
And how do you know people didn't complain about caste system? Those who were oppressed were obviously expected to keep quiet. If women in a Islamic state don't complain about their situation, that doesn't mean that "people are happy" as that's how they're expected to be.
I don't know where you got this idea from, or if there is any proof for it at all (apart from religious nationalists who want to make India a religious state).
sid_donnydarko
Contributor
I never put sati aside like a joke. Have you tried to visualize how life would've been for someone alive back then. Imagine a world where you're brought up to believe that its a womans duty to immolate herself when her husband dies. Why do you think no one tried condemning and completely abolishing Sati back then? Western influence even drove Raja Ram Mohan Roy to abolish Sati after he watched his sister-in-law die. You'r ranting because you're analysing the life of a pre-british rule indian with a 21st century mindset. Instead try "reliving" their life in a world completely isolated from the west and there's absolutely no one to tell them that what they're doing is wrong. How do you think we understood the meaning behind the word sycophancy? In a culture where respect is paramount, it was the west that taught us that respect can be overrated and too much of it can be interpreted as servile obsequious flattery. Its the same with the caste-system too. You live your life happily as a farmer following in your father's footstep until one day someone decides to educate you.
Watch Star Trek: DS9. The show is mostly about the political conflict between the Bajorans, a pre-warp caste-based race, and the Cardassians, an advanced race that colonized the Bajoran homeworld. After the Bajorans won their freedom from the Cardassians they tried reinstituting their caste-based system called D'jarra. But by then it was too late because the Bajoran put aside the D'jarra in order to unite against the Cardassian occupation.
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How is that a rant? Of course I will analyse it with the 21st century mindset; what other choice do I have? If I'm writing or telling a story from that era, I'll try "reliving" it, but that doesn't mean I accept it.
Your argument was that women were better off pre-independence, and perhaps even pre-British era. However, the evidence points to the opposite.
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sid_donnydarko
Contributor
Sati being one. The other is the Devadasi system, which was well established in the 10th century AD itself. Child marriages; young girls being married to older males was also practised. Polygamy was also widely prevalent, though the problem was that it was restricted only to males; same as in other medieval cultures.
All the evidence points towards the fact that women weren't better off in the pre-independence era.
they had just robbed a previous passenger before the couple had boarded. just because they didnt have a record doesnt mean that they were not criminals. they must have just been not caught till then.
wth?! that's like saying hitler was an ordinary guy who just happened to execute millions of people.
what does this even mean?? it's like saying illiteracy is primitive only when directly compared to literacy. Otherwise it's fine in isolation
There is no doubt that there is serious issue in India right now. But know that at the same time, South Africa, Brazil, Colombia, etc., countries that can be considered at the level of India or better were /are facing similar issues. As far as my understanding goes, South Africa is far worse than India. What would you say in such a scenario. By painting all Indian men gangrene, don't you think you are going a bit overboard ? By these comments, you are knowingly or unknowingly are creating unexpected and unnecessary conflicts between genders. All those Indian fathers, brothers, husbands who loving nurtured their family till date will stand looking down, as insulted and honorable men generally do at such rants.
Now, the last thing we need is having boundaries drawn between genders as if in a war. Create fences and you can make sheep out of people.
Gender politics is already being well exploited as vote bank by political parties. The fact that 'Aam Aadmi' Indian men are clueless about fully women centric laws, overtly balanced against men, being passed in the parliament every fortnight does not mean that it will not cause any impact of those on the society later. Attack by new age feminism arose form garbage bins of west is another issue.
Free market globalization have turned common man more materialistic and there is not go back from here. It will be gross ignorance to think that daily news full of scams, corruption, nepotism, violence done by their own leaders have no bearing over the man on the road /subconscious psyche of collective society.
What we need is a better value system to be implanted on urgent priority on our leaders, then on common man, before having death penalty enforced on underage children.
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