Delhi gangrape protests

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Gannu said:
Guys, someone explain me why/how - killing the rape victim after committing the crime, helps the convict later? I didn't understand this part. Is it because the convict may get a quick death by hanging?

Pardon my stupidity/ignorance! :ashamed:
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The damage for the victim is done, getting justice would give closure and faith in the law.

The main issue here is *Justice*. What would be the punishment befitting such a crime? It's not a simple, if it can be called that, rape. It involved torture, mutilation and other sadistic acts. There are reports coming in that one of the convict put his hand inside the vagina and removed her uterus out of the body and threw it out of the bus, though I am not sure whether that's true or not. For rapes involving just forceful sex, I guess death penalty would be a severe deterrent. But for the case at hand though, I think it is justified, that is my view.
 
blkrb0t said:
Just leave the moral corruption of the society aside for now. It's a bigger problem that will take at least a generation to resolve.

For the case at hand though, if not death penalty, then what?

Suppose you were lured into a bus, then forced to strip naked and then have a steel rod jacked up your ass, while one of the guys had you gagged with his dick in your mouth, and the other slowly chopped off your balls and stripped the skin of your dick. And then this was repeated with the offenders taking turns each, and after they were done with you, they threw you out of bus. You somehow survived the ordeal temporarily, but only to die in the hospital a few days later. And you didn't even have the media coverage and the support of the entire nation behind you.

Tell me what punishment should those criminals who killed you brutally get?
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I did not intend to make this thread an argument between those for Capital Punishment (CP) and those against it. But i must admit you would have made a fine lawyer on one of those made-for-TV Adaalat shows. Nice way to rile up already flustered sentiments.

I cannot (have no right to) hypothesize that situation so me answering that question is churlish. On the other hand, you seem to imply that you are representing the girl and her wish. Please.... you, me or anyone else have no right to make such assumptions.

In another post of yours, you have listed out different reasons why this particular rape was abnormally brutal and hence, deserves CP. Fair enough, but i beg to differ. A rape is a rape. The very fact that another person forcefully penetrated a woman is the ultimate act of brutishness according to me. So, if i was for CP then i would have certainly sent every rapist in India to the gallows. But i am not. I am opposed to CP in principle. When i say that i mean no CP at all irrespective of the nature of the crime. And judging by the way death sentences are awarded and being actually carried out in the last 3-4 decades, i see CP being ousted some day in India.

Plus, you yourself say that the moral corruption problem is a bigger problem for another day. So you admit that you want a quick-fix. We all know how solutions like that work in the long term. Take China for instance, they are still executing thousands every year for many years now (this is only an example). If the government must kill, then it ought to have a purpose. If anyone can guarantee that a horrifying crime like this won't reoccur with the awarding of CP, then so be it. I know nobody cannot. And as i said before, in the need to punish people like those rapists, we must desist the urge to become inhuman like them. Their death has to serve a larger purpose than just satisfying those millions. If it can't, then killing them is just state-sponsored revenge.

I'll also stand by what i said earlier. CP is the easy way out for these guys. I also fear that the spark that has arisen among people of this country won't survive the day after these men are sentenced to CP or put to the punishment itself. People are disgusted that these men lived in the same society as they did. They are repulsed and as is human nature to react when faced with a such a situation, they want them eliminated at all costs.

Lastly, i hope you do not make posts like the above quoted one. Lets not start assuming that its possible to feel or think what that girl would have after the crime. I honestly feel its demeans her.
 
Orija said:
If the fundamental argument of your post is wrong, the rest of your post isn't worth reading, is it?

You are forcing me to give complicated answers, man. My original point was that it is wrong for the protestors to demand the death penalty for the men because that is the job of the judge. Try being mindful of your sentence structure though, made it seem like I was reading haiku.
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I was being mindful and wrote it in plain simple English. Not sure what confused you to make it look like Haiku. You are making it sound that the protesters only want the rope, and nothing more. There is much more out there as a want by the public. Not being able to argue back, does not mean a lack of understanding, or low quality to whom you are replying. My sentence structure is just fine, your comprehension may be sub par, or you are biased.
 
eternoMind said:
Their death has to serve a larger purpose than just satisfying those millions. If it can't, then killing them is just state-sponsored revenge.
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Contradicting yourself, aren't you? Their deaths don't need to serve any purpose, it should only serve the crime they've committed. And I am not speaking on behalf of anyone, they are all my *OWN* opinions.

The victim or the convict don't mean a damn to me. I'm only deciding my views based on the content at hand.
 
Orija said:
:scared14:

He does it so that he doesn't get caught by the police by having the victim identify him.
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Right and finally he'd face the gallows. Which the majority wouldn't want because that'd grant him a quick death when he inflicted a lot of pain on the victim during the rape.

I guess I concur with that. A quick death isn't perhaps the solution here.
 
asingh said:
You are making it sound that the protesters only want the rope, and nothing more. There is much more out there as a want by the public. Not being able to argue back, does not mean a lack of understanding, or low quality to whom you are replying. My sentence structure is just fine, your comprehension may be sub par, or you are biased.
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You are making it sound that the protesters only want the rope, and nothing more. You write this and talk about reading comprehension in the same breath. I'm specifically talking about a section of the protestors who are demanding the death penalty. If you had taken the trouble of reading my posts you would have noticed that I've already clarified this twice.
 
Orija said:

You are making it sound that the protesters only want the rope, and nothing more. You write this and talk about reading comprehension in the same breath. I'm specifically talking about a section of the protestors who are demanding the death penalty. If you had taken the trouble of reading my posts you would have noticed that I've already clarified this twice.
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Did you not write this:

The people asking for death sentences are from the same society that spawned the rapists. This bestial attitude will do more harm that good, and unleashing the people's bloodlust on the convicts will not result in any victory. The protesting crowds do not get to decide whether these men are truly irredeemable.
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What does that mean...? And that is what I replied to the first time round to you. Irrespective, if it is a slice or the whole pie (protesters); there is much much more they are asking. I agree, there is bloodlust out there, and should not be used as the gauge for judgement, no..never, and also the society cannot decide the severity of the punishment. That is for the court to decide in a proper trial.
 
blkrb0t said:
Contradicting yourself, aren't you? Their deaths don't need to serve any purpose, it should only serve the crime they've committed. And I am not speaking on behalf of anyone, they are all my *OWN* opinions.

The victim or the convict don't mean a damn to me. I'm only deciding my views based on the content at hand.
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I was asking whether their deaths would serve a larger purpose. And you've answered that perfectly in the above reply that CP would be apt punishment for the said crime. As i said, that is where my belief diverges from yours. This divergence emerges from my stand against CP.

I am sure you are speaking for no one except yourself. But then in that case you do not have to invoke the suffering of that girl while asking me a question. By doing that, you are forcing me into the victim's shoes, which i feel is demeaning to the victim as i get to type here sitting on my comfy chair thinking about the same. You have a question, ask it no holds barred but without resorting to such antics.

Also, agreeing to disagree is something i attest to ! Felt like saying this with respect to some of the posts on this and the previous page.
 
eternoMind said:
I was asking whether their deaths would serve a larger purpose. And you've answered that perfectly in the above reply that CP would be apt punishment for the said crime. As i said, that is where my belief diverges from yours. This divergence emerges from my stand against CP.

I am sure you are speaking for no one except yourself. But then in that case you do not have to invoke the suffering of that girl while asking me a question. By doing that, you are forcing me into the victim's shoes, which i feel is demeaning to the victim as i get to type here sitting on my comfy chair thinking about the same. You have a question, ask it no holds barred but without resorting to such antics.

Also, agreeing to disagree is something i attest to ! Felt like saying this with respect to some of the posts on this and the previous page.
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How is that demeaning the victim? She is dead now and won't give a damn as to what happens.

Capital Punishment is a sensitive topic, and the law should take care of that. I was just thinking it from a first hand view, what would I do if something similar had happened to me? Will my animal instincts take over and will revenge give me closure? Or is there a better solution. Can we forgive the convicts now? There are a lot of questions that need answering, and they will make you feel uncomfortable, but that doesn't mean we stop pondering about them.
 
blkrb0t said:
How is that demeaning the victim? She is dead now and won't give a damn as to what happens.

Capital Punishment is a sensitive topic, and the law should take care of that. I was just thinking it from a first hand view, what would I do if something similar had happened to me? Will my animal instincts take over and will revenge give me closure? Or is there a better solution. Can we forgive the convicts now? There are a lot of questions that need answering, and they will make you feel uncomfortable, but that doesn't mean we stop pondering about them.
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Alright, those questions do not make me uncomfortable. However, your juxtaposition of the said victim's suffering and my stand does. Like it or not, you are demeaning the victim's suffering.

True, she's dead. But that definitely does not mean someone else gets to fill her shoes and debate. If you are thinking from your viewpoint and getting the answers then good for you. I ,for one, do not think like that. Questions like that "What would i do if something similar had happened to me' add absolutely no substance to the greater search for answers to some of the valid questions you've posted. You are aiming to put on the hat of a victim of such a crime and then think what you would do. That is not the way laws and punishments are formulated or even debated.
 
Orija said:
We might as well piss on her grave.
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Yes, we can do that too, and still, she won't give a damn. She's just a victim now who has passed away, nothing more. Though, it took this particular incident to spark the debate, for that she'll always be remembered.
 
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blkrb0t said:
Yes, we can do that too, and still, she won't give a damn. She's just a victim now who has passed away, nothing more. Though, it took this particular incident to spark the debate, for that she'll always be remembered.
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Damn good point, and despite our differences, I absolutely agree with you on this one.
 
Going by the protests against the cocktail and the singer, Vidhu Vinod Chopra, Raj Kumar Hirani and Aamir Khan also need to be litigated against. I found the 'funny' speech by Omi Vaidya extremely insulting while people seemed to be fine with it.
 
India is a country of sensitive people, some over sensitive people.
Celebrities, politicians, mass media and lemons in light types should introspect, think, think again before flashing in public. You never know when it will come to haunt you.

Yes, we have to deal with it. Good or bad, doesn't matter.

I just hope the poor kid's fate ringed a bell in "Chalta Hai" Indian's ears. Hope we will respect our women with what they deserve, not an iota more and not a iota less.
 
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