Audio Suggest a Budget Amp + speakers
- Thread starter gmano
- Start date
Zigackly, and so those (Yamaha etc) amps are not a good choice. One might be better served by picking up a Pulz or other 'smaller' brand, and then upgrading later.
My point really is that as much as power output tells you nothing about the quality and/or abilities of the equipment, neither does the brand name or its price tag, so even though the Yamaha may be a '100 watt' unit, it is not necessarily a step up from a Pulz or similar, and may indeed be a step down.
When it comes to audio as component cost for any fully built unit is about 25%-30% of marked MRP/SRP (30-40% is the dealer margin, rest goes to manufacturer - shipping, duties etc are added on top). Sometimes smaller guys really have the edge because they are able to keep those little extras out of the picture, and thus deliver more 'sound'. I've built enough amps to know what is inside them, and what the variables are. The 320BEE has a peak power rating of more than 200 watts. That is not a funny number, and tells you a lot about the philosophy of building amps - and one I keenly follow when building mine.
There's really no way to tell how much or indeed if at all you'll like a particular set up, so the best way to choose is by listening to it.
My point really is that as much as power output tells you nothing about the quality and/or abilities of the equipment, neither does the brand name or its price tag, so even though the Yamaha may be a '100 watt' unit, it is not necessarily a step up from a Pulz or similar, and may indeed be a step down.
When it comes to audio as component cost for any fully built unit is about 25%-30% of marked MRP/SRP (30-40% is the dealer margin, rest goes to manufacturer - shipping, duties etc are added on top). Sometimes smaller guys really have the edge because they are able to keep those little extras out of the picture, and thus deliver more 'sound'. I've built enough amps to know what is inside them, and what the variables are. The 320BEE has a peak power rating of more than 200 watts. That is not a funny number, and tells you a lot about the philosophy of building amps - and one I keenly follow when building mine.
There's really no way to tell how much or indeed if at all you'll like a particular set up, so the best way to choose is by listening to it.
^^ whats your conclusion then?? go with pulz tobegin with or not??
about listening to them, is it possible to decide just by listening few songs?? more over we don't get a chance to compare the amps, not all the shops are dealers of all companies. (thats why i am trying to get some advice from you, experienced people, and listen to those things and decide)
I am just a beginner here, so I can not start big, I want to try a budget setup first. I planned to spend 15k (for speakers + amp), now stretched it to 20k. Please advice me accordingly.
about listening to them, is it possible to decide just by listening few songs?? more over we don't get a chance to compare the amps, not all the shops are dealers of all companies. (thats why i am trying to get some advice from you, experienced people, and listen to those things and decide)
I am just a beginner here, so I can not start big, I want to try a budget setup first. I planned to spend 15k (for speakers + amp), now stretched it to 20k. Please advice me accordingly.
^ I guess sangram got it a bit wrong. You see we were recommending Norge/Pulz because his total budget is 20k, else I would have told him to go with Marantz / NAD / Denon.
As for Yamaha being a step down from the Pulz, I find that a bit hard to believe. I've heard a lot of Yamaha's and though they might tend to be a bit laid back, they certainly aren't underpowered for sure
As for Yamaha being a step down from the Pulz, I find that a bit hard to believe. I've heard a lot of Yamaha's and though they might tend to be a bit laid back, they certainly aren't underpowered for sure
@ sangram, you were talking about the used amps in the other thread, I also felt that these kind of people/audiophiles or whatever, must be maitaining their stuffs very well, so buying a second hand amp for the prize of Pulz/Norge won't be worng, I feel, but what do you guys feel??
I have found few second hand amp dealers in chennai, they import second hand things from singapore and also local purchases. They stock few old models, but I don't know whichone will be good. your advice will be helpful regarding this.
I have found few second hand amp dealers in chennai, they import second hand things from singapore and also local purchases. They stock few old models, but I don't know whichone will be good. your advice will be helpful regarding this.
@Anish, I knew his total budget was 20K, was just pointing out all the choices and the pros and cons.TBH, I've heard the Yamahas, and couldn't take it for more than 30 seconds. OTOH I've sat through a 4-hour jazz session with only Pulz equipment and though IDK whether it was the music or the equipment, I loved the sound.
The reason I'm talking about high-end brands is that sometimes it's possible to stumble on a good deal on a used or even new piece. One should know all the options and the pros and cons of each.
@gmano: For auditioning I use a custom test CD, it is eleven songs that help me listen to how well the equipment does certain things. All these are pulled from reference recordings so I can listen to things like pace, rythm and timing. The problem is that the first time you don't really know what you're listening for, though.
As for choosing, you'll have to do it on your own. Some of the older Japanese stereo receivers are good, but would be past useful life. Older HK were built to run hot, so stay away from those. Newer Naks (post-1990), NAD (you can pick up a 3020 for about 5K here in Bombay, but those have all the parts inside changed out - it's better to buy direct than through dealers unless it's someone you can personally trust), Technics or Fischer are the most common older amps this side of the woods.
Why don't you tell us a list of available models with your dealers, then we can make some more informed choices?
I have always bought my amps second hand, BTW, up to the point I stopped buying amps. I've owned Aiwa, HK and Sansui amps and if I made the inital purchase carefully, I've never regretted it.
Edit: To answer your first question, I really don't know the answer. You'll have to listen. Friendly advice is all fine, but since you're the one who's going to live with the amp, you're going to have to listen to them and choose. To as many amps and speakers as possible. If you want to know what to listen for, let me know and I'll put up another post.
The reason I'm talking about high-end brands is that sometimes it's possible to stumble on a good deal on a used or even new piece. One should know all the options and the pros and cons of each.
@gmano: For auditioning I use a custom test CD, it is eleven songs that help me listen to how well the equipment does certain things. All these are pulled from reference recordings so I can listen to things like pace, rythm and timing. The problem is that the first time you don't really know what you're listening for, though.
As for choosing, you'll have to do it on your own. Some of the older Japanese stereo receivers are good, but would be past useful life. Older HK were built to run hot, so stay away from those. Newer Naks (post-1990), NAD (you can pick up a 3020 for about 5K here in Bombay, but those have all the parts inside changed out - it's better to buy direct than through dealers unless it's someone you can personally trust), Technics or Fischer are the most common older amps this side of the woods.
Why don't you tell us a list of available models with your dealers, then we can make some more informed choices?
I have always bought my amps second hand, BTW, up to the point I stopped buying amps. I've owned Aiwa, HK and Sansui amps and if I made the inital purchase carefully, I've never regretted it.
Edit: To answer your first question, I really don't know the answer. You'll have to listen. Friendly advice is all fine, but since you're the one who's going to live with the amp, you're going to have to listen to them and choose. To as many amps and speakers as possible. If you want to know what to listen for, let me know and I'll put up another post.
^ http://www.techenclave.com/forums/574936-post22.html
I also found one AV receiver, Marantz PM 711 (or 177??, I confused the number now), that guy insisted me take it cos its a good one and drive the wharfedale's well. His price for Marantz is Rs. 5,750.
I also found one AV receiver, Marantz PM 711 (or 177??, I confused the number now), that guy insisted me take it cos its a good one and drive the wharfedale's well. His price for Marantz is Rs. 5,750.
I saw that post.
1. The Samson monitors are very very good, but not meant for home use. They are best listened to in nearfield, so unless you have a very small listening room don't use them. They are meant for listening in ~3ft distance. In the midfield and far field in a typically reflective home atmosphere, they will sound weak in the upper bass and midbass.
2. The NAD looks the best of the lot, but it's a very old amp. You have to be pretty confident of the fact that it's not got its parts changed except if upgraded, but in its day it was a very good amp. It is 'only' 25 watts, I'm not sure how it'll fare with modern speakers like the Wharfedales.
3. The Denon is a good bet too, except that it must have aged by now. You have to listen and be vigilant of any crackles and distorion in the sound, specially when played loud. Those amps were good, built to last, but not for 25 years.
4. The Pioneer is much more recent model, but I've not heard anything from Pioneer after 1985 that I've liked in terms of sound. However this has won the EISA Euro sound award in '92, so it might actually be the best of the lot. I can't seem to find any info on it other than that though I know Audioreview has several posts about this particular amp (site seems to be down).
5. I would stay away from receivers. I just don't think they're built for music, they have too much signal processing and screw around with the input in too many ways.
So in my my book it's a shootout between the Pioneer and the NAD.
1. The Samson monitors are very very good, but not meant for home use. They are best listened to in nearfield, so unless you have a very small listening room don't use them. They are meant for listening in ~3ft distance. In the midfield and far field in a typically reflective home atmosphere, they will sound weak in the upper bass and midbass.
2. The NAD looks the best of the lot, but it's a very old amp. You have to be pretty confident of the fact that it's not got its parts changed except if upgraded, but in its day it was a very good amp. It is 'only' 25 watts, I'm not sure how it'll fare with modern speakers like the Wharfedales.
3. The Denon is a good bet too, except that it must have aged by now. You have to listen and be vigilant of any crackles and distorion in the sound, specially when played loud. Those amps were good, built to last, but not for 25 years.
4. The Pioneer is much more recent model, but I've not heard anything from Pioneer after 1985 that I've liked in terms of sound. However this has won the EISA Euro sound award in '92, so it might actually be the best of the lot. I can't seem to find any info on it other than that though I know Audioreview has several posts about this particular amp (site seems to be down).
5. I would stay away from receivers. I just don't think they're built for music, they have too much signal processing and screw around with the input in too many ways.
So in my my book it's a shootout between the Pioneer and the NAD.
^^ Do you think this old Pioneer and Nad must be better than the new Norge/Pulz amps??
Samson monitors are good, I listened to them in the shop for about one hour, you are correct, they sound weak in bass. But they are meant to be like that, I suppose, as its used for recording purpose. (it seems that nowadays lot of people by studio monitors for home use also)
Samson monitors are good, I listened to them in the shop for about one hour, you are correct, they sound weak in bass. But they are meant to be like that, I suppose, as its used for recording purpose. (it seems that nowadays lot of people by studio monitors for home use also)
^^ Like I said earlier, there is no way to tell. They would have been built better, but have aged. You will have to listen and figure it out yourself. Also look for signs of abuse - rusted input connections, worn markers on the front panels, buttons that click audibly, etc. But yes, I would think that there is some sience in the way the older amps were put together, and in that budget range there are not that many choices either.
Studio monitors are not meant for recording, they're meant for monitoring. When listened close up they will sound fine (not weak in bass), because of an effect known as baffle step. Home speakers compensated for this effect as they are meant to be listened to at a distance. Monitors are not, because at a close distance the speaker does not suffer fom this.
Studio monitors are not meant for recording, they're meant for monitoring. When listened close up they will sound fine (not weak in bass), because of an effect known as baffle step. Home speakers compensated for this effect as they are meant to be listened to at a distance. Monitors are not, because at a close distance the speaker does not suffer fom this.
Monitoring is done during recording, mixing and mastering. Sorry to get technical on you, don't mean to confuse you, so OK, they are used for recording.
What I have on my test CD are:
1. Pink Floyd: Marooned - 3D imaging, holography and drum impact
2. Coldplay: Don't Panic - Bass, baby, Yeah!
3&4. Mark Knopfler: Back to Tupelo, Shangri-La: Lower midrange clarity and separation of voice/guitar
5. Diana Krall: A case of you - Micro-detailing, lots of audience noise in this quiet live piece
6. Richie Sambora: Ava's eyes - Micro detailing (breathing, finger noise), tone
7. Sarah Maclachlan: Full of Grace - Upper midrange and female vocal clarity, no sibilance
8. Van Morrison: Moondance - OK recording, but good check of 'groove', very fast bassline, should have no 'overhang' or 'boom'
9. Dire Straits: Why worry - I use this as it's actually got a very poor drum recording in the end of the track. Reality check - it needs to sound bad, then the system is faithful.
10. Coldplay - Fix you. This is one hell of a noisy track. A system should not lose its composure or get painful towards the end o the track, when all hell is breaking loose.
There are a few other songs on that disc I don't remember off the top of my hat.
Other songs that I've figured out are good are:
1. Pink Panther (Really!)
2. Hamp and Getz: Headache
3. AC/DC: Back in black
4. Zucchero and Tina Arena: I'm in trouble
5. Oasis: Champagne supernova (this is a tricky test, the bass is actually very low down and most systems just repoduce the distortion, not the original tone)
6. James Taylor: Gaia. If a system can reproduce the drum roll after the bridge without bottoming out at your threshold of pain, then it's worthwile to buy)
7. The Eagles: Hotel California, the regular version (I can't stand the unplugged version anymore anyway), for just the impact of tom rolls before the final verse ends, and at the crescendo of the chorus. And yeah, there are six guitars in the song, each at a different position. On a good system you can pinpoint all six.
8. Dire Straits: Love over Gold, Private investigations
9. Paul Simon: Diamonds on the soles of her shoes
10. Bruce Springsteen: Paradise, Nothing man, Blood Brothers
I also carry a bit of jazz and fusion, but dealers normally stock quite a bit of that sort of thing themselves.
What I have on my test CD are:
1. Pink Floyd: Marooned - 3D imaging, holography and drum impact
2. Coldplay: Don't Panic - Bass, baby, Yeah!
3&4. Mark Knopfler: Back to Tupelo, Shangri-La: Lower midrange clarity and separation of voice/guitar
5. Diana Krall: A case of you - Micro-detailing, lots of audience noise in this quiet live piece
6. Richie Sambora: Ava's eyes - Micro detailing (breathing, finger noise), tone
7. Sarah Maclachlan: Full of Grace - Upper midrange and female vocal clarity, no sibilance
8. Van Morrison: Moondance - OK recording, but good check of 'groove', very fast bassline, should have no 'overhang' or 'boom'
9. Dire Straits: Why worry - I use this as it's actually got a very poor drum recording in the end of the track. Reality check - it needs to sound bad, then the system is faithful.
10. Coldplay - Fix you. This is one hell of a noisy track. A system should not lose its composure or get painful towards the end o the track, when all hell is breaking loose.
There are a few other songs on that disc I don't remember off the top of my hat.
Other songs that I've figured out are good are:
1. Pink Panther (Really!)
2. Hamp and Getz: Headache
3. AC/DC: Back in black
4. Zucchero and Tina Arena: I'm in trouble
5. Oasis: Champagne supernova (this is a tricky test, the bass is actually very low down and most systems just repoduce the distortion, not the original tone)
6. James Taylor: Gaia. If a system can reproduce the drum roll after the bridge without bottoming out at your threshold of pain, then it's worthwile to buy)
7. The Eagles: Hotel California, the regular version (I can't stand the unplugged version anymore anyway), for just the impact of tom rolls before the final verse ends, and at the crescendo of the chorus. And yeah, there are six guitars in the song, each at a different position. On a good system you can pinpoint all six.
8. Dire Straits: Love over Gold, Private investigations
9. Paul Simon: Diamonds on the soles of her shoes
10. Bruce Springsteen: Paradise, Nothing man, Blood Brothers
I also carry a bit of jazz and fusion, but dealers normally stock quite a bit of that sort of thing themselves.
My source is a PC based on an A64 3200+ and a K8N-E deluxe. 2x300 GB disks, all music stored as wav files, ripped in CDEX with 'Paranoia, full' setting.
Since I bought this in bits and pieces, I'd value its current price at about 15K, but if you want to build one from the ground up it would be around 20 I guess.
My Sony 29" doubles up as a monitor. An FX5200 provides TV output. The only fans are on the CPU (Speedfan keeps it quiet), rear output (7 volted) and in the PSU (thermally controlled).
Then there is this soundcard:
E-MU 1212M
That card cost me about 12K.
Connected to a homebrewed amp built from these kits:
DIY Chip Amplifier Kits, PCB's, Components and Information.
That amp cost me about 12K to put together, and the case is still being built, and will end up costing me 15K (that's only for the case). And it'll still be a bargain.
And finally to these speakers:
Sony Style Canada
The speakers cost me 35K, plus crossover, wiring and binding post mods which added another 5K to the cost. They do very well, thank you very much, and with the grills off no one has ever guessed they're Sony.
But since they are, I'm building a pair of these:
Zaph|Audio
The drivers and crossover bits are already with me, looking for someone to make me a box. I'm already down 23K on the bits, once the box and everything is done I estimate about 40K total.
That's my little setup. Hope you like it.
Since I bought this in bits and pieces, I'd value its current price at about 15K, but if you want to build one from the ground up it would be around 20 I guess.
My Sony 29" doubles up as a monitor. An FX5200 provides TV output. The only fans are on the CPU (Speedfan keeps it quiet), rear output (7 volted) and in the PSU (thermally controlled).
Then there is this soundcard:
E-MU 1212M
That card cost me about 12K.
Connected to a homebrewed amp built from these kits:
DIY Chip Amplifier Kits, PCB's, Components and Information.
That amp cost me about 12K to put together, and the case is still being built, and will end up costing me 15K (that's only for the case). And it'll still be a bargain.
And finally to these speakers:
Sony Style Canada
The speakers cost me 35K, plus crossover, wiring and binding post mods which added another 5K to the cost. They do very well, thank you very much, and with the grills off no one has ever guessed they're Sony.
But since they are, I'm building a pair of these:
Zaph|Audio
The drivers and crossover bits are already with me, looking for someone to make me a box. I'm already down 23K on the bits, once the box and everything is done I estimate about 40K total.
That's my little setup. Hope you like it.