The Aam Admi Party

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blkrb0t said:
@Party Monger Even if there was an organized crime racket going on there, the way it was handled means the criminals would go scotfree. Not following the due process, even when everything is against your side, isn't a rational behaviour.

I'm a supporter of AAP, but I don't like the way the law minister handled the incident. It is a disaster in the making if such behaviour continues.
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Please take the effort to go above and check where I said he should have gone home instead. But my point here is that all of what he is blamed for possibly didnt happen at all.

Other than him doing a mid night call on the locality at the behest of those people, the whole urinitaing and the "troubling women" thing seems right now to be just word of mouth no credible evidence other than those women suspected of being involved and having a motive to lie.

My critical faculties of reasoning are still pretty sound, please don't lecture me on what a reasonable supporter does. The simple point is that he is being prosecuted in the media on half baked pseudo facts. None of which have been corroborated by anyone other than the accused women and the police charged with inaction. Everything is supposed to be on a fictional tape. Even if they were prostitutes, my heart goes out to them, and Bharti needs some sensitivity training to understand how to tackle these things subtly rather than a super hero fashion. But that's about all he can be blamed for from my assessment right now.


The procedure as said above is the police should investigate prima facie and get a warran, they did neither, and that agitated the crowd. Mishaps may have happened and if they did then again bharti could be morally held responsible, but it would be stupid to really blame him for the whole thing when the root cause is police inaction, he was just being a naive administrator.

Also what's wrong with midnight raids? Do criminals not work in the midnight? Is it their time off? I dont understand how people base such expectations. Sigh.
 
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Here's an interesting bit of the article I quoted above, do give it a read:


As for the "upright Delhi police standing up to a vigilante minister’s demands" and refusing to arrest without evidence and a warrant… such descriptions would be laughable were they not being made by media across the board. First of all, Delhi Police can arrest without warrant if they can justify their actions in writing to the court. Secondly, both in cases relating to narcotics and prostitution, no warrant is required. Thirdly, how long does it take to get a warrant and female cops? Fourth, what prevented the police from raiding the house and asking the inmates to come to the police station in the morning? Indian Express reported Bharti as saying that he had sent a decoy into the house pointed out by locals, and the decoy was told that entering it would cost him Rs 10,000 a night. Is that not evidence enough for the police to act?

Is the Delhi Police’s credibility so high that their sudden adherence to rules is to be taken seriously? A 20-minute-google search will show instances where Delhi’s residents have complained about being arrested without a warrant. These are residents who can complain. What about slum-dwellers who are routinely picked up from their homes on suspicion; Muslims who are whisked away without reasons being given and not even shown to be reported till days after? No media outcry follows such acts unless the victims create a noise. Indeed, the police’s routine illegal acts of brutality against the poor don’t even make news.

There is merit in the media’s allegations of anarchy and inconvenience caused by the AAP government’s street protest. But there is equal merit in Kejriwal’s argument that the poor deal with anarchy every day. What faith in the system will the family of that woman have, who was burnt alive by her in-laws, with the police refusing to act? What faith in the system would residents have who’ve had to live with a prostitution and drug racket in their area, running with the police's knowledge?
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Decent article on the analysis of Media's role in this controversy --> http://thehoot.org/web/ThemediasattitudetoAAP/7255-1-1-10-true.html



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We sent a decoy to the house and he said the charge was Rs 10,000 a night. So I immediately asked the police to conduct a search and arrest those involved but the police refused
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Did you know that this is not illegal in India .. and Firstly Police can't search a house without warrant in case of Suspected solicitation which it technically wasn't.
If the woman had approached this 'decoy' and offered 10,000 for sex then a law was broken because then its Solicitation. Police could not have searched that house without female police officers and especially not during the night.

Is the Delhi Police’s credibility so high that their sudden adherence to rules is to be taken seriously?
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All credibility or lack of must be proved in a court of law if it is so relevant to a case. Before that 'innocent until proven guilty'. In front of the law Delhi Police is honest .. until proven otherwise.

Delhi Police can arrest without warrant if they can justify their actions in writing to the court.
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The arrested person must be notified of his charges and must be produced before a magistrate within 24 hours with preliminary list of charges.

What charges were against these women,
Drug Use -- A clean drug test nullifies that.
Prostitution -- As I said earlier, a 'decoy' as described by Mr Law Minister is useless ..Complaints/Suspicion doesn't lead to arrest, unless those suspicion can be verified before the trip to the magistrate. Charge them or let them go .. other wise its Police Harassment .. and they were let go.
 
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dexBG said:
Did you know that this is not illegal in India .. and Firstly Police can't search a house without warrant in case of Suspected solicitation which it technically wasn't.
If the woman had approached this 'decoy' and offered 10,000 for sex then a law was broken because then its Solicitation. Police could not have searched that house without female police officers and especially not during the night.



All credibility or lack of must be proved in a court of law if it is so relevant to a case. Before that 'innocent until proven guilty'. In front of the law Delhi Police is honest .. until proven otherwise.



The arrested person must be notified of his charges and must be produced before a magistrate within 24 hours with preliminary list of charges.

What charges were against these women,
Drug Use -- A clean drug test nullifies that.
Prostitution -- As I said earlier, a 'decoy' as described by Mr Law Minister is useless ..Complaints/Suspicion doesn't lead to arrest, unless those suspicion can be verified before the trip to the magistrate. Charge them or let them go .. other wise its Police Harassment .. and they were let go.
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The point is there were a hundred ways the police could have dealt with it, but police refused to deal with it. Female cops arent exactly extinct. Every police station is supposed to have a certain number of them. So no they would not have needed to do it in the morning.
 
Party Monger said:
The point is there were a hundred ways the police could have dealt with it, but police refused to deal with it. Female cops arent exactly extinct. Every police station is supposed to have a certain number of them. So no they would not have needed to do it in the morning.
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There are 100s of ways Bharti could have dealt with it but instead he chose make a media spectacle out of it.

Female cops were called , the tests were conducted at the hospital .. but until then the women were detained by AAP members for many hours. It is during this time that the alleged mishandling and racist remarks took place.

It's very likely that there is prostitution and drug ring in that area but Bharti's chaotic efforts only ended up in the harassment of the few innocent women who lived there.

Bharti needs to face the repercussions if AAP believes in even an iota of justice it preaches. Otherwise we're setting up a dangerous trend of the ends justifying the means.
 
Party Monger said:
So basically everyone in favour of AAP is lying? At best isnt there a preliminary case for a Law minister to take note if police isnt doing its job? Its not vigilantism, its what you could call over excitedness. Losing the sight of the plot while eagerly trying to help. The ugandian ladies fell on the wrong side of these, but I seriously doubt their statements. It seemed very scripted to me.Much more than random citizens being interviewed.

This write up adequately covers my POV. http://thehoot.org/web/ThemediasattitudetoAAP/7255-1-1-10-true.html
Have a read.

For those who TL;DR, Here's the gist -
1) The full video which allegedly captures the whole event isnt shown. Arvind Kejriwal and Yogendra Yadav demanded that video be made public first thing. Pretty sure they can censor the image of the woman peeing if necessary. The fact that it was not done makes me very suspicious. They only show the part where he is arguing.

I'l add more in a bit.
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It does not mean that, any one supporting AAP is lying. That video was not supposed to be "support"; but the truth. Did you not mention that too..! Even if it is/was/could have been preliminary and ground work for the law-minister, he had no right to go in barging. It is vigilante behavior (bordering on criminality and laced with moral - policing) and not over excitement.

All to their own, who wants to believe whom.
 
Party Monger said:
The point is there were a hundred ways the police could have dealt with it, but police refused to deal with it. Female cops arent exactly extinct. Every police station is supposed to have a certain number of them. So no they would not have needed to do it in the morning.
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No.

That is not the point. Soon we will have more gung-ho, wild wild west behavior by the hackneyed group. What if one day, one of his ministers takes a gun and blows off a drug-dealer / gang leaders head. Will we lament the same...? That the cops were not doing anything..? Can you not see where all this leads too, and how unsafe it is for normal citizens. I share a pin-code with that area, and live bang opposite to the 24 x 7 which was harassed a night before Khirki Extension. It does not give me a good feeling. God knows, how you can be comfortable.
 
Have any of you had a cop come into your house. Can you describe the feeling...? When the bell rang, and you saw "khaki" standing there. And extrapolate this to: night time + civilians + colony members. Even if you are not a criminal, you will end up behaving like one.
 
sid_donnydarko said:
Quite a few as a child. And only once as an adult. None of them involved me. But i will admit they were decent since my mom was the only other resident.
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Thanks. Some time back, an inspector came to talk to me about some property fight between my first floor and ground floor. I am just the tenant on the 2nd floor. To be honest, my heart leaped for a few moments, and was uncomfortable for a minute. Now if: civilians turn up at night with sticks and acting aggressive, it will be scary. I will think they have come to mob me, and might get paranoid.
 
Party Monger said:
Bullshit. If someone says they have seen prostitution take place, women offereing rates to random passer by's Police is obligated to check out the situation! That person's testimony is preliminary evidence. The onus of gathering proof is on the police not the citizen. I dont know which books of law you read cause you seem to be justifying it with pedestrian logic and one off situations, but law is not made according to exceptions.

Stop passing off bullshit and pedestrian logic as gospel. Rather read up and see. Person complains, police registers complains, investigates and asks around, gathers preliminary proof, gets a warrant and then conducts search , seizure and arrests. That's the procedure, not some fantasy law you conjured up to prosecute people on media reports.

In the present case they had everything and just needed to get a warrant which they refused cause the police is hand in glove in these rackets. Explains most of the incident.
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Oh Please, enough with your bullshit already.. May be, your head is still spinning after watching too many Indian movies where the police can barge into any ones house anytime or drag anybody off to jail after kicking them on the street.

First of all where is the proof that the police did not investigate? A bunch of people complaining against unknown (number of) people without anything concrete does not constitute as evidence enough to get a search warrant. I can get a bunch of people together and go to the police and file a bogus complaint that you are running a drugs racket from your house. Do you think the police would be obligated (or manage) to get a search warrant and raid your house and drag you off without any other evidence to substantiate? If it were that easy, it would be abused to no end in a country of scum like ours. Why do you think that despite Bharati's involvement in the incident being publicly known, when the women wanted to lodge an FIR, it was filed against unknown persons? because till there is identification of the people involved and evidence found to the effect though the womens testimonies under oath or other means, they cannot be treated as the suspects.

Also FYI, search warrant is not in the hands of the police. Once the police finds some concrete preliminary evidence indicating wrong doing, they have to convince a magistrate of the same and they have to convince that a further search is necessary to obtain more damning evidence. The later part is important. Often, Its easier to get a arrest warrant than a search warrant to enter and search a private property.

You said that they had every thing they needed. What did they actually have to get a search warrant? You think the magistrate is stupid enough to sign a search warrant without evidence or flimsy evidence. If there is so much evidence to indicate wrong doing, why is it that all the tests that were forcefully done on those women did not turn up any evidence against them? There was nothing wrong about how the police officer responded. Bharati was asking them to arbitrarily arrest people and raid houses with out any evidence and without any search warrant or arrest warrant. In fact it was Bharati who should have been arrested on the spot considering that he broke the law on so many counts the first and foremost being intimidation of a police officer on duty.
 
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i so want AAP to succeed coz they can offer a legitimate alternative to the other parties but in this case they have gone about things very very badly.

Unfortunately, they've got a few idiots in their party (which i guess is a reflection of society). hopefully, they'll course correct.
 
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Not defending the actions of the law minister by any means, he should be aptly punished for his deeds.. but it's strange how the police, media and establishment are up in arms about this issue, whereas the goondas in these cases have almost gone by unscathed:
http://www.hindustantimes.com/india...lashes-gun-at-toll-booth/article1-943612.aspx
http://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...-policeman/article4526161.ece?ref=relatedNews
http://news.in.msn.com/national/kashmir-ministers-guards-held-for-beating-up-traffic-cop
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/salman-k...-iac-asks-president-to-step-in/300875-37.html
http://topic.ibnlive.in.com/samajwa...ployee-and-thrash-him-ZzQH8WXOG6c-246869.html
http://news.oneindia.in/2013/08/27/...dly-demolish-doctors-house-in-up-1292982.html
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/sp-mlas-car-runs-over-constable-in-moradabad/1/177165.html

These are the few on the top of my head.. These did get media attention too, like for a day or a week. Indeed a strange world we live in, where people who are trying to do right (but fumbling mightily along the way) are persecuted but people who openly commit heinous crimes are defended in the open.
 
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1011783_451817068274312_919798960_n.jpg

http://archive.indianexpress.com/ne...pital-panels-aap-volunteers-walk-in/1216283/1
 
Lord Nemesis said:
Oh Please, enough with your bullshit already.. May be, your head is still spinning after watching too many Indian movies where the police can barge into any ones house anytime or drag anybody off to jail after kicking them on the street.

First of all where is the proof that the police did not investigate? A bunch of people complaining against unknown (number of) people without anything concrete does not constitute as evidence enough to get a search warrant. I can get a bunch of people together and go to the police and file a bogus complaint that you are running a drugs racket from your house. Do you think the police would be obligated (or manage) to get a search warrant and raid your house and drag you off without any other evidence to substantiate? If it were that easy, it would be abused to no end in a country of scum like ours. Why do you think that despite Bharati's involvement in the incident being publicly known, when the women wanted to lodge an FIR, it was filed against unknown persons? because till there is identification of the people involved and evidence found to the effect though the womens testimonies under oath or other means, they cannot be treated as the suspects.

Also FYI, search warrant is not in the hands of the police. Once the police finds some concrete preliminary evidence indicating wrong doing, they have to convince a magistrate of the same and they have to convince that a further search is necessary to obtain more damning evidence. The later part is important. Often, Its easier to get a arrest warrant than a search warrant to enter and search a private property.

You said that they had every thing they needed. What did they actually have to get a search warrant? You think the magistrate is stupid enough to sign a search warrant without evidence or flimsy evidence. If there is so much evidence to indicate wrong doing, why is it that all the tests that were forcefully done on those women did not turn up any evidence against them? There was nothing wrong about how the police officer responded. Bharati was asking them to arbitrarily arrest people and raid houses with out any evidence and without any search warrant or arrest warrant. In fact it was Bharati who should have been arrested on the spot considering that he broke the law on so many counts the first and foremost being intimidation of a police officer on duty.
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Im sorry this is such utter bullshit packaged as a sane argument, sometimes it makes me doubt logic as a conclusive way of forming opinions. Seeing how people like you can bend it to even invent the ways in which the law works.

If only the law worked according the pedestrian logic you quote. Alas it does not. The principle is simple - A citizen gives a First information report of a crime, the police investigate, they ask neighbours, listen and see if the allegations merit a formal inquiry, then get the warrant on that basis. All was in place except the last one.

Also contrary to popular opinion, there were female cops on the scene. AAP will probably release a video of the whole situation for all to see if they can get the raw footage from the news channels. Lets wait and watch.
 
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