What exactly is Government of India doing?

[tech.monk]

That's one of the biggest misconceptions about vaccine storage..
The entire Russia/ EU/ US may be covered under snow, but that doesn't help vaccine storage in any way.

I'm not referring to that when I mentioned avg. temps - it meant in terms of transportation/handling of vaccine will have better scenario for EU/Russia/US due to lower temps whereas we here might face upheaval task of handling the temps.

Though I am not an expert but based on the info available Moderna's vaccine seems to be more reliant to temps handling & guess what it is still awaiting FDA approval to go live with.

 

[alekhkhanna]

I'm not referring to that when I mentioned avg. temps - it meant in terms of transportation/handling of vaccine will have better scenario for EU/Russia/US due to lower temps whereas we here might face upheaval task of handling the temps.

Though I am not an expert but based on the info available Moderna's vaccine seems to be more reliant to temps handling & guess what it is still awaiting FDA approval to go live with.

If you mean the energy expenditure to maintain such cold chain will be lesser in Russia, than say India, might be true. But external temps have little to do with storage. Storage has to be at the right temp - and hence good quality vaccines come with the temperature monitor.

Though Russia being a pretty big continent, I doubt it will be easy for them to transport and store the vaccines so easily. And Russia is Russia. Even if a million people die after taking their vaccine, it will be dubbed a success.

Dr Reddy's is working on Sputnik though. Let's see what happens.

 

[red dragon]

Just a small update: Moderna's vaccine can now be transported at minus 4 degrees F.
For pfizer it's still minus 98 F.
These 2 vaccines are being given to some of my colleagues in US, so far they are doing fine.

 

[tech.monk]

Just a small update: Moderna's vaccine can now be transported at minus 4 degrees F.

I know that (as I have worked with mRNA people and do interact them for their software requirements).

Probably now you can see my previous comment's geographic reference.

 

[Sobirvs]

@Sobirvs , did you mean me as OP ( AFAIK this thread was started by me)
I'm not even a member of BBF!!

Not meant you bro, I meant for @Tejas01

So what if someone is critical of govts every action. They have the freedom to do so. One should choose logic and proof to post against their claims, instead of choosing the easy option of calling them a propaganda machine.
My personal views are same, citizens should always be critical of every govt action, no matter how good they are, because only then will they be motivated to do better. And there is always scope of doing better. This is my personal view and if I am going to exercise the freedom to post my personal views, then that doesn't make me a propaganda machine.
Yes, you shouldn't have been banned just for your views and opinions and that is wrong. However, IMHO, it is also wrong that you are bringing up a personal issue in this thread which is completely OT. You could have very easily created another thread about this issue you faced at the other forum, warning us of the dictatorial manner in which that forum is run.

Really? Critical for every action? Really every action? I mean there is no room for even one decision of the Govt that is right and one can keep their mouth shut rather than bi**h about it just because they want or have the right to do so?

Sir, you might have read your fundamental rights in your school but there is fine print to every right, I hope you do know that right? There are T&C to every fundamental right. Just because you have the right to do something, doesn't mean you have to exercise that right every time you get a chance to do so, that wouldn't be called right to expression, that would be called right to abuse your rights.

I am sure even Congress got into politics for the right reasons and good heart but the way public and opposition (BJP etc) bit**ed about every damn thing they did, they must have thought regardless the intention they got into public service, they went ape sh*t and said to themselves , well f**k it, let's just scam and loot people of India, as if they are gonna say anything good towards us anyhow anytime soon.

There is a reason why China is so successful. They shut everyone up, they don't let their citizens talk sh*t about Xi. Look at the development there. Now I would never want India to adopt what China does, I mean if to do something China takes 5 years and India takes 15, I am okay with it as long as we have democracy here. But we can't really ignore the China's development and success story. What I am trying to say is, if you have a kid and you keep scolding him and critic him that he get's bad grades like C or D, but once if that kid get's a B, you still scold him, he is gonna suicide or move away or give up on studies. This applies to adults too, if your Dad drinks alot for example a 3-4 bottles a day, you as a kid keep judging him but then one day he thinks I am gonna cut down on my drinking and you still judge him rather than being a bit supportive, what's gonna happen?

There are several reasons to be critical towards this Govt, I agree. But if you are one of those people who don't like this Govt and want to judge this Govt, that's great! so you go ahead and put your opinions to one platform but then if you have one of those minds where you think , okay let's post the same sh*t on another platform and then another and then another, same sh*t, then yes you are a fcu**ng propaganda machine. (But Let me clear one thing to you @rdst_1 ,neither I said you are as such neither I really follow your posts to judge you as such, though I have seen you around and have nothing person towards you, it's just that I was checking TE after a while and all of a sudden I see this post from Tejas and think, wait a moment I have seen this nick before, hence my comment on him. Clearly he has seen my post here now hence he liked yours but didn't comment meaning he doesn't give a f**k as long as he get to do propaganda on all platforms though I won't be surprised if he comments now).

I completely agree with your about my comment being completely OT. I feel TE is the only few good ones left where we can roam around and still have nice conversations even if we have different political views. Speaking on that topic there is one thing I somewhat (not completely) like GOI did, ofcourse with the Article 370. I myself am from that region and have seen enough there to know how much it has costed the citizens of that state and seeing the development just completely stopped and how one highway took 18 years to complete or how one stadium took 20 years+ to get an overhaul and still not complete. I am not saying revoking 370 will get those things to us. That is remain to be seen but revoking 370 sure is a step in the right direction. Now one thing came out of it was J&K getting 5L Health insurance completely free (a huge benefit). I wonder why the Govt announced it 2 days back where as we got the card made for it about 4 months ago, it was already started. No 4G? Yep, that's a bummer and I hate Govt for it however we have such leaders in state itself that when they got out of detention, most people were of the view that take those state leaders back to detention as long as we get 4G.

 

[Kaleen Bhaiya]

Won't be replying to your posts till the mods feel it is appropriate to do so. @Sobirvs
Frankly, don't know who you are nor do I care why you were banned. If you have issues with the mods in other forum take it up with them. Bringing a totally OT to this thread just to suit your generalised views speaks poorly of you.
Yes, the mods at other forum is strict In implementing the rules but it is his forum. Telling me to ask why were you banned when I don't even know you or had nothing to do with you.. I have other things to do. . Frankly, you should have confronted the mods at other forum if you thought it was wrong.
As pointed out by @rdst_1 , If you have issues with other forums open a separate thread and mention your issues there.

 

[Sobirvs]

Right, confronting the mods after you get banned and have no access to the platform where you can have a rational conversation. - Laughable. This applies exactly the same at r/india where once a person get's banned from having a right wing opinion which doesn't match their's (leftiests), they ban and then if that someone pm's staff(mods at r/india), they reply to him saying "**** off". These are the mature a........ (I really am trying hard to not use this kind of language here). When I see Modi-shah duo putting Journalists in Jail for having a completely different opinion, I get pissed off by this kind of Governance but atleast I get pissed, rather than saying "I have other things to do" and then leftiests say majority doesn't do anything and keep voting them and then This govt uses power in a bad way, well if you feel so, then freaking you yourself are not really in the right anyways as when you might have a chance , you run away with a tail betwen your legs or say I have other things to do. I don't expect you to defend me personally, Hell IDGAF about BBF anyways but what about 1000 other users the admin claims he banned and have been doing so for years? Did you even condemn his actions even if not taking a side? No? Great, I think I should be grateful of this Modi-Shah duo who doesn't give the other side a chance to speaking in media and put sedition charges on them. Hypocrisy on both sides are at it's highest level honestly. Do think about it before criticizing the Govt or any individual (right or left) and THINK , am I being a hypocrite? If there is even a bit rationality left in you (apart from hatred for the right), the answer you find might be Yes.

Mods feel appropriate? I hope you are not expecting the mods here to do the same as what mods at BBF do. Sucking up to the mods doesn't work here, as it works at other places.

Mods are strict? Strict would imply he have put a banner there saying "I will ban a person having a different opinion" and still a person do so, hence he get's banned. I would understand that as he owns the forum. Admin at BBF is not strict, he is nuts. Owning a forum , telling public to contribute to such forum , begging the forum to click on links off his amazon/FK affiliate links so that he can make money of off it and keeping his forum open rather than invite only and then banning a person having a different opinion, height of hypocrisy.

I know I am going quite OT now and I apologize to mods here and I would humbly accept any warnings or infractions or even ban if the staff team thinks it is necessary on my account. I know my words look and sound quite attacking however honestly what happened, there is no other way to put it politely. If one looks at my account history, I have never ever attacked a person here and would not ever do it, who gets time in this busy schedule and work but sometimes you just have to hold on your ground. If necessary, mods Please move BBF related posts to another thread to keep this clean. We live in a democratic country and everyone has rights. Regardless online or IRL. Some platforms however are really not ethically following the right way (not that they have to but sound mind says they should) and then when telecom sector or Govt wants to regulate the online worlds, these same people come out and bi**h and say we want net neutrality. I am against any regulations put on anything on the internet by the Govt but atleast don't run the website like a dictator or a Don or a king ruling with an Iron fist. I mean come on, just the word if we take it in literal sense net neutrality, you have to be neutral. This doesn't just applies to Companies such as Facebook etc, it should apply to every damn person even if he/she is President/PM. These same people who then b***h about the Elected Govt, their views, idealogy and opinions can honestly go ahead and kiss my white pale a** if they can't be neutral even if the other person ight have different views.

 

[Kaleen Bhaiya]

@Sobirvs , did you mean me as OP ( AFAIK this thread was started by me)
I'm not even a member of BBF!!
Now I'm staying away from all Corona related thing and specially the vaccine scenario.
But as a public health guy who deals with vaccines ( non covid) everyday, I didn't understand a single thing about India's plan on covid vaccine.
AFAIK, only 2 vaccines have been approved yet for mass vaccination ( both require cold chain of -70 degrees) and USA has already paid a huge amount of money for them.
India is possibly depending completely upon Covidshield...( SII is stockpiling something which has not even passed the pre qualification test by our org's immunology department)
While really developed countries like Germany and Netherlands are struggling with the cold chain, I've not read/ heard anything about India's infrastructure.
This post has nothing to do with politics, but I'm having a hard time comprehending India's plan of vaccination. Someone from health industry told me India is planning to start vaccinating people from January...are they going to completely ignore the temperature requirements and start vaccination with vaccines kept at a much higher temperature?
From my limited experience with vaccines in general, can assure one thing... IT SIMPLY WON'T WORK as intended and will have ALL SERIOUS SIDE EFFECTS.
According to Mr.Modi, government of India allocated a significant fund for vaccines, then why not buy the real ones!!?? Why not start building storage infrastructure ( -40 degrees is the lowest India had in 2014..I'm 100 percent sure about it)

I think Godrej has started to build cold chain needed for the vaccines..

Godrej working on ultra cold storage solution for vaccines - The Economic Times

Mumbai: Godrej Appliances is developing a cold storage solution for vaccines that require ultra-low temperatures for safe storage and transportation, a developm

m.economictimes.com

One part in the article mentioned that current vaccines in India need 2-8degrees celcius(C). Are these vax from SII or from Bharat Biotech? Or did I misunderstand it and it meant vaccines used in Govt programmes like polio, diphtheria etc.
@alekhkhanna your inputs too if you can.

 

[rdst_1]

Not meant you bro, I meant for @Tejas01


Really? Critical for every action? Really every action? I mean there is no room for even one decision of the Govt that is right and one can keep their mouth shut rather than bi**h about it just because they want or have the right to do so?

There is a difference in being critical and being dismissive. Also there is a difference how one is being critical. If I can provide logical inputs as to how can the govt have done things in a better way, then I feel that the govt should be open to listening to such criticism. If I am just criticising them for the heck of it, then surely no one is going to listen. Also, I hold people who run for office at a much higher standard than normal humans. I expect them to be devoid of any ego and be filled with sense of public service. I know it is too much to ask from a normal human being, but how do we improve, if we don't aspire for being best/great.

I hope you are only praising China in the heat of the moment. I have said this in other threads as well, that I don't support the notion that we need to become like China. China has destroyed it's environment for it's greed. In India too, no particular care is given towards environmental issues as soon as we see money, but thanks to our democratic processes, things can be challenged and delayed. The whole world right now, needs to change it's definition of success from making more and more money at the cost of nature, to something else which provides a better future for everyone.

 

[psyph3r]

What's wrong in what she said?

That was not the point, she's clearly saying none of the vaccines have proven efficacy so why single out the inactions of any one government when all of them have messed up big time, why would any government invest heavily in infrastructure to store something months in advance, something whose efficacy has yet to been proven conclusively ? especially for a virus with a proven 95%+ recovery rate with most of the deaths accounted for only with people with co-morbidities or the elderly.
Not to mention it's totally unfeasible for most countries, a lot from the first world included.

They are trying to stockpile Oxford and AstraZeneca's Covishield as it is manufactured in serum institute's Pune plant..a vaccine that has not yet passed pre qualification test for export!!

So you're saying that a company that's supposed to be one of the largest manufacturers of vaccines by volume, one that is one of the prominent suppliers to that incompetent organization you work for, has partnered with another pharma giant (obviously without any vetting process or knowhow) to supply it locally and to other impoverished nations hasn't taken any of that into account before investing millions into production facilities for a vaccine that is nearing approval in both the UK & USA ?
OK.

With my European friends I always try to defend or at least justify some of the strange decisions Indian government makes nowadays. But this is a predominantly Indian forum with most members located in India...why fool ourselves by blindly supporting everything!?

No one is a blind supporter here, my post history is filled with enough govt. bashing. If you praise someone for one thing and go bash another for doing the exact same thing, then you're clearly biased.
On one hand you're praising the actions of the US w.r.t vaccines but the fact is their poor handling of the entire situation for months was the most important factor that swayed the elections the other way.

There is a difference in being critical and being dismissive. Also there is a difference how one is being critical. If I can provide logical inputs as to how can the govt have done things in a better way, then I feel that the govt should be open to listening to such criticism. If I am just criticising them for the heck of it, then surely no one is going to listen.

TBF there are some members on the site whose posts are mostly political, especially for a forum named techenclave.
Not only that, they also manage to drag their political bias into tech threads as well occasionally.

 

[tech.monk]

she's clearly saying none of the vaccines have proven efficacy so why single out the inactions of any one government when all of them have messed up big time, why would any government invest heavily in infrastructure to store something months in advance, something whose efficacy has yet to been proven conclusively ? especially for a virus with a proven 95%+ recovery rate with most of the deaths accounted for only with people with co-morbidities or the elderly.
Not to mention it's totally unfeasible for most countries, a lot from the first world included.

but that's where Clinical Trial and people who conduct that come into play - who has lots of experience with the vaccines and their response/reactions. and is the gist of the video too that without those trials and getting EUA (emergency use authorization) will slightly make things difficult to handle in initial rounds of vaccination.

Clinical trials capture whole lot of data that FDA assesses and then approves the vaccines that is not the case here.

investing millions into production facilities for a vaccine that is nearing approval in both the UK & USA ?

isnt it true that these pharma companies function like that - invest in millions then sell the vaccine/drug till they've exclusive rights - later add some alphabet or some trickery (also change slight composition of drug/vaccine) and keep on using exclusive rights and keep on minting money.

 

[psyph3r]

isnt it true that these pharma companies function like that - invest in millions then sell the vaccine/drug till they've exclusive rights - later add some alphabet or some trickery (also change slight composition of drug/vaccine) and keep on using exclusive rights and keep on minting money.

Exactly, it applies to Pfizer as Moderna as well so why be selective ? Just because it needs to be stored at -98 F doesn't make it the de-facto best option, just look up Pfizer Trovafloxacin experiment.

Clinical trials capture whole lot of data that FDA assesses and then approves the vaccines that is not the case here.

What's stopping any Big pharma company from doctoring any of the numbers or downplaying/under-reporting any side effects just like in the past, regulatory bodies in western countries are equally if not more corrupt than our own. Just because they wear suits doesn't mean they are any better than our babus, more scientifically competent but equally favoring big money.
US healthcare industry as a whole itself is a stunning example.

FDA assesses and then approves the vaccines that is not the case here.

Aaaaand it just got approved for use in the UK.

Oxford-AstraZeneca Covid-19 vaccine approved for use in the UK

The MHRA, the UK drug regulator, has given approval to the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine to be used for immunization on British soil. The formula is the second one given the green light in the country.

www.rt.com

 

[alekhkhanna]

All such approvals are EUAs or Rolling reviews. Situation to be assessed in real time basis, basically.
We are the live experiment now.

 

[tech.monk]

Exactly, it applies to Pfizer as Moderna as well so why be selective ? Just because it needs to be stored at -98 F doesn't make it the de-facto best option, just look up Pfizer Trovafloxacin experiment.

Moderna is relatively small compared to Pfizer and AZ

What's stopping any Big pharma company from doctoring any of the numbers or downplaying/under-reporting any side effects just like in the past, regulatory bodies in western countries are equally if not more corrupt than our own. Just because they wear suits doesn't mean they are any better than our babus, more scientifically competent but equally favoring big money.
US healthcare industry as a whole itself is a stunning example.

its not India my friend where Clinical Trial data gets doctored - Clinical Trials are not conducted by these companies itself and the 3rd parties don't work according to these pharma companies.

Aaaaand it just got approved for use in the UK.

this is called EUA - not an regular FDA approval

 

[psyph3r]

Moderna is relatively small compared to Pfizer and AZ

Which makes it even more riskier, from what i've read so far no mRNA vaccine has ever been successful especially one that's been developed in record time.
At least it's good to see a professional like @alekhkhanna be a healthy skeptic, just being skeptical doesn't make one an anti-vaxxer especially when it goes against scientific temperament.

this is called EUA - not an regular FDA approval

Doesn't matter, getting an FDA approval is not the greatest of standards. Your argument was that due diligence isn't followed in India, which it isn't ofc but now you're implying it isn't followed in the UK either.

Criticism of the Food and Drug Administration - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[tech.monk]

Your argument was that due diligence isn't followed in India, which it isn't ofc but now you're implying it isn't followed in the UK either.

I never said that - my comment was more in reference to what you have mentioned about Babus and all - if you read my comments again; you will still see.

Anyways, you continue - no point on carrying it on.

 

[red dragon]

Moderna is not even a Pharma company...it's just a small biotech company from Massachusetts!!
They don't even have a single product in the market other than this vaccine.
However they were working on a MERS vaccine and jumped the moment Chinese released the complete genome in January ( possibly 12th January)
You guys possibly aren't aware of all the technical issues related to these 2 vaccines and I'm not going into the details, please don't read news articles about vaccines...there are proper articles on vaccines in Pubmed.
Moderna was way ahead in this race, they managed to bring up the cold chain temperature to a sustainable level way before anybody, they completed the animal trials before anyone.
MOST IMPORTANTLY, with the moderna, an institution can purchase a very small number of dosage required for them. With pfizer it has to be 179 ( I'm not sure about the exact number, but it has been a big issue for American hospitals who have actually started the process among doctors) Pubmed published a detailed article on this recently.
UK has allowed covishield, but this vaccine is yet to pass the export certification!!
These vaccines are not silver bullet to end the pandemic, these are just desparate measures for desperate times. These 2 vaccines have the highest benefit, risk ratio. US did the right thing to invest in them long before anybody, if one fails they will try another one. What's wrong in this approach?
India failed to control a pandemic with the harshest lockdown with case load of less than 1000 with a population of 130 Crores...( Just think about the massive failure in terms of contact tracing...the absolute basic of epidemic control) it was not a proactive measure...just an eyewash...yes, USA has also failed miserably, but at least they are still publishing the most transparent public health disaster statistics openly for the whole world to see, it takes some heart ( FYI India doesn't require the ICMR registration number for RT PCR, it has become optional!! Really a smart way to control an epidemic...stop reporting...problem solved)
Oh BTW..we are supposed to get the first shot on Friday ( Moderna one) almost all of my colleagues received the first shot this week, no significant side effects yet, but some of us will develop symptoms after the 2nd shot...for us it has been made mandatory.
Why still so much hate for WHO? No law in any country says that a vaccine has to be passed by WHO...yet we are forced to test the vaccines and get crucified by the same people at the same time...we know nothing about vaccines or communicable diseases or epidemiology...yet every time some epidemic starts somewhere..we have to be there...why!?
Not only this pandemic...we were there in Yemen, Brazil, South Sudan and even Iraq ( I bet nobody remembers about Mosul in March 2017...even the army was not ready to get in with some ambulances...but we idiots did) These countries don't give us any donations...even during polio mop up rounds in West UP and Bihar in 2011..we idiots were there...finding out children with AFP in places where not many educated Indian will ever go..how much does India donate us every year!!??

 

[alekhkhanna]

I am not in favour of the current anti WHO sentiment.
Having worked with an INGO, albeit a short stint, I have nothing but praises for people working for the betterment of the community.
I've worked deep inside the Naxalite areas, but I know colleagues working in DRC, Sudan, Somalia, Yemen etc, and good God, nobody wants to be in those places. One of my close friends was in an area bombed by Russians (this was a couple of years back I think). They stated in a bunker for a day. Then moved with WHO, ICRC and a bunch of other colleagues to the airport, which was again bombed. Stayed put there for 3 days. Finally there was ceasefire, and they got evacuated. And within 15 days, he was back in operation. Hats off !
Ofcourse, like any half decent INGO, WHO too is at the mercy of donations by member nations. Not many people will understand the diplomacy needed when begging for donations from so many countries, all with vested interests.
The real value of such orgs will come to the forefront when we won't have access to them as a central repository for all updates and plans.
People are just getting brainwashed by the media

 

[tech.monk]

Why still so much hate for WHO? No law in any country says that a vaccine has to be passed by WHO...yet we are forced to test the vaccines and get crucified by the same people at the same time...we know nothing about vaccines or communicable diseases or epidemiology...yet every time some epidemic starts somewhere..we have to be there...why!?

Trying to shed more light on this end (if people only understand the language from the news articles and don't bother to go through publication)

Vaccinated U.S. nurse contracts COVID-19, expert says Pfizer shot needed more time to work - ABC

A nurse in California tested positive for COVID-19 more than a week after receiving Pfizer Inc's vaccine, an ABC News affiliate reported https://bit.ly/2L8iBel on Tuesday, but a medical expert and the U.S. drug maker said the body needs more time to build up protection.

www.reuters.com

Regarding Vaccine safety - please read more on Pharmacovigilance. Their is ample information on how vaccine/drug gets approved - here I'm not talking about FDA or any competent authority - it is about what is required to get drug approval.

 

[red dragon]

My Life as a Doctor in the World Health Organization - PMC

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

A rather nicely written article by one of these idiots..
Alekh's post reminded me of one really scary situation.. don't remember the area, somewhere in northern part of Belgrade, me and my partner were working for a bunch of Toluene huffing kids and teenagers.
The goal was to rescue at least 15-20 kids and drop them off at a halfway house cum detox centre near by.
We didn't know these kids were panhandling all day for some local tough guy. After 3/4 days we almost cleared off a large tunnel with 30-40 kids. We were also living with them in that strange dirty tunnel and sleeping in sleeping bags at night. I didn't carry a gun at that time ( never even saw a real one back then)
Around 2 in the morning, some guys started kicking our sleeping bag ( we had a custom made large bag which could accommodate 2 people) I got up and thought of earthquake!!
Anyway 3 big guys, one with a sawed off shotgun, other 2 also were armed with knives, chains etc. started abusing us.
I saw a dirty glass bottle by the sleeping bag, within seconds I grab Len's hand with my left hand, threw that sticky dirty bottle at them with maximum amount of force I could manage..and ran for our lives to the opposite end of the tunnel, heard a thud and crash behind us and was soon engulfed by pitch black darkness, we didn't even have our boots on, we heard some random firing far away from us.
We waited in that dark hell hole literally hugging one another for some warmth, still clearly remember I was trying to comfort Lenka while both my legs were shaking uncontrollably ( she still makes fun of that situation)
After almost 2-3 hours, we came out to find our tent, sleeping bags, backpacks and EVERYTHING gone. But we survived.
Next night we stayed in another tunnel, but like our true homeless neighbours, we didn't have a tent and slept on concrete in small and thin bags ( the best we could buy locally) But nobody attacked us.
Eventually I reported the incident which led to a chain of events..some guy took me to some police traing centre with a shooting range and after 3 hours of training he took my ID etc.signed some papers and receive a old but very well maintained Glock 17!!
Len refused to even hold it once. I never fired it once yet ( but it gets servicing every year) but I carry it most of the time.
This is our life... really nice..huh!?