Could've been a trap. Considering how conniving conflicts in that region panned out.
Police clamp down on anti-israel protests
- Thread starter blr_p
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blr_p
Oracle
They were expecting unrest in Judea & Samaria by Hezbollah. So they had pulled forces from the south to reinforce. Their eyes were elsewhere.
Not to mention their own internal political battles. Literally at each other's necks and when Oct 7 happens they go.. Uh..
The difference between Israel & India is Israel doesn't have a constitution only basic law and no upper house. So when things get decided in the knesset it leads to fatalism, fear mongering and panic. A much more polarised atmosphere than India. They've had five elections in the last four years because the coalition partners just couldn't get along. Same parliamentary system like us but total 120seats and 61 needed to win.
Hamas gave no reason to be wary. The money flowed in and daily over 10k Gazans came to work in Israel. The belief was a better economic outlook in Gaza would promote peace.
This is flawed liberal thinking since France & Germany were each other's biggest trading partners at the eve of WW 1.
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For such societies with radical history, conflicts written from the beginning of civilization, trade does not mean much.
Point on Zizek's video is that one part is willing to accommodate other, but the accommodated is not at all willing to reciprocate that decency.
So, war is the result and it will wipe out the current weaker one. That is how it always worked with endless wars in that region.
Point on Zizek's video is that one part is willing to accommodate other, but the accommodated is not at all willing to reciprocate that decency.
So, war is the result and it will wipe out the current weaker one. That is how it always worked with endless wars in that region.
blr_p
Oracle
From a realist lens it's complete nonsense. But there are political pressures to deal with. The south are mostly left to far left. Peace now types most willing to work with Arabs. They are all cousins. Crazy? Yes but that's how they think. If they have to give up half the country for peace they will do it.
The kids at at the Nova festival were all anti war. I've been to raves like this and anti nuke symbols are prominent. Yet these were the people singled out for the most inhumane treatment imaginable.
Agree with him on that point. People will say this is an old conflict, complicated conflict bla bla. Only a one line summation is required
You have a people that want to live in peace and another group that wants to anhilate them.
That's it. Once you accept that you have understood the root cause.
People can argue as much as they want but that is what it will boil down to.
Proof is simple. Look at the trajectory of both groups over the last century. Both started off poor and destitute in the case of the Jews. But only one is wildly successful with a per capita in the $50k range and the other is stuck in a ghetto dependent on aid in perpetuity.
It's not like Pals are not smart. It's their leadership that perpetuates this murderous jew hating fraud known as the 'Palestinian cause' . Why? Simple. It keeps the Pal leadership relevant and in the money. They get to go to 5 star hotels to attend conferences and in the end agree to nothing. If peace comes they will be ignored as just another 3rd world leader.
Implication is most times Israel is responding to some attack. But that initial trigger is never mentioned or frequently downplayed in the media. The headline in the liberal press is always Israel did this or that. So of course Israel is ALWAYS the bad guy. Always acting in a disproportionate way. This disproportionate argument is another load of BS.
Will wipe out those that want to fight. Only. If Gaza wants iron dome. It comes for free. Don't fire any rockets into Israel. Done!
And that is OK. It's an unsolvable problem unless there is a mindset change with the pals. Despite the numerous wars Israel has still succeeded and has a bright future.
Do not think like an engineer. Problem? What is the solution. Think strategic. What measures will reduce the damage.
Everwhere crime & poverty are also unsolvable problems. Both are addressed by law enforcement and welfare measures. To reduce crime to acceptable levels. Poverty reduction takes more time.
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It is easy to summarize even if one goes tribal / ethnic history which are old as civilization there:
Police clamp down on anti-israel protests
Over at Sydney University, a visibly Israeli supporter asks protesters for solutions Gag order in effect. Same MO at these protests no matter the country. Nobody dares to condemn Hamas? What are they afraid of 30,000 people killed and if the your concern still is,why didn't u condemn...
techenclave.com
What west and people from other regions does not understand is that cultures in these regions are different (ME to West Asia), they will play out as they prefer till they exist. What you are seeing now is the result of that.
> They are all cousins. Crazy?
Yep, It always was / is / will be one group or tribe vs many other tribes.
Was present aeons before the current dominant religion in that region was even created.
> Will wipe out those that want to fight. Only. If Gaza wants iron dome. It comes for free.
Even this will not work. If one actually check history, conquered territories from Egypt, Jordan were provided for accommodated party to live. Eventually how it ended up in this situation for Israel.
> And that is OK. It's an unsolvable problem unless there is a mindset change with the pals.
Mindset is never going to change
An analysis of religious evolution of dominant pals in that region will not only be huge eye opener, but can be jolting too. Can't go that path here though.
> Despite the numerous wars Israel has still succeeded and has a bright future.
That is how Israel's history worked, unless they anger God after living suss for sometime
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For people arguing about the thousands of years scriptures, I would suggest also read some alternate history by an Israeli historian
Israel is neo settler colonialism, and Palestinians are living in the largest prison in the world, called Gaza, where all resources are controlled by Israel.
Israel is an occupying force, and it only exists because of the backing of US. It furthers their agenda in West Asia
A blog on the illegality of Israeli occupation and continued violence.
www.blogdip.org
India has been adopting many of the methods used by Israel to repress Palestinians and other nations around it (bulldozing buildings, tech spying).
So, it's not surprising that people here support Israel and the violence.
Ok I am outta here. Trolls cometh!
Israel is neo settler colonialism, and Palestinians are living in the largest prison in the world, called Gaza, where all resources are controlled by Israel.
Israel is an occupying force, and it only exists because of the backing of US. It furthers their agenda in West Asia
A blog on the illegality of Israeli occupation and continued violence.
How does the (il)legality of the Israeli occupation inform and is informed by the doctrine of self-defence? — Blog - Droit International Pénal
While proceedings are underway at the International Court of Justice to determine the legal consequences of Israel’s actions in the occupied Palestinian territory, this article explores the legality of the Israeli occupation through the lens of the act of aggression. It concludes that even if one we
www.blogdip.org
India has been adopting many of the methods used by Israel to repress Palestinians and other nations around it (bulldozing buildings, tech spying).
So, it's not surprising that people here support Israel and the violence.
Ok I am outta here. Trolls cometh!
> For people arguing about the thousands of years scriptures, I would suggest also read some alternate history by an Israeli historian
Alternate history by an Israeli historian is not going to invalidate Dead Sea scrolls to hundreds of wars in that region from the beginning of civilization's history.
Alternate history by an Israeli historian is not going to invalidate Dead Sea scrolls to hundreds of wars in that region from the beginning of civilization's history.
superczar
Keymaster
Those who don’t acknowledge/agree that Hamas’s militant actions were wrong are guilty of the same double standards that can be seen on this thread - just in the reverse direction.
However that does not make you right - the same way as how your counter cannot be quoted by them as justification for their thought process
This is a complex problem to explain - but let me try nevertheless
The parallel i drew to Punjab earlier is also of significance here.
Most folks, (incl you and I ) are not militants - but if we believe we are being oppressed by a specific sect/segment/group, we may not necessarily retain the sensibility that otherwise prevents us from not condemning a wrong action against said group.
While such a psychological outcome is not necessariily appropriate but that does not make you or I guilty of a crime or wrong doing when wishing/celebrating ill on the other party.
Morally condemnable but not a crime by itself. Least of all a crime that deserves death or maiming!
To this date, A lot of older Sikhs , regular folks who had no connection with the Khalistan movement do not have a moral issue with Indira Gandhi’s assasination - because in their psyche, she deserved it after laying a siege on their holiest shrine.
As an outsider, Would I personally condone this thought process - No.
Can I however understand and/or empathize - Yes, as long as they do not engage in militant action themselves
Coming back to Gaza where locals have for decades had lesser rights/ limited self governance / minimal freedom of movement, it is natural that they feel oppressed by their quasi governing regime/ group.
So if they perceive said militant action by Hamas as appropriate :
As an outsider again, I would apply the same principle as what i said above
Even one death is a problem.
The 30K number that I quoted is based on the current estimates - maybe its higher, or lower.
But surely you can’t be disputing that there have been significant civilian casualties in Gaza incl Children ?
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blr_p
Oracle
There are no double standards. And yeah nice try at creating a false equivalence there. This tactic is frequently used to equate the two sides. It's a flat out lie. It boosts the Pals that resort to terrorism at the expense of a rule abiding military and accountable democracy.
If one side wants peace and the other wants to anhilate them then there is no equivalence possible to those that have the guts and moral clarity to say so.
Watch out for these false/moral equivalence arguments made by Pal supporters. Usually leftie commentators which you want to avoid when it comes to this conflict. Because then you will not be able to figure out who the bad guys were on Oct 7. The difference between right and wrong is blurred on purpose.
Couple of notable examples
Neither side's hands are clean in this conflict - Obama last November
It's no wonder US - Israel relations were at an all time low during his tenure.
Oct 7 did not happen in a vacuum - UN General secretary
Both statements excuse the pals for whatever and put the blame on Israel for defending itself. Which is the agenda.
Huh? Rephrase as I don't understand the mental gymnastics you're using here
They voted Hamas in and got what they deserve. They are not innocent. They are morally compromised. Fafo applies.
Israel left Gaza in 2005. Settlers removed kicking & screaming, graves and all. Therefore for 18 years Gaza has been under self rule. What have they done with it. What lesser rights they had was due to Hamas. They were allowed to work in Israel and 10k and above did so daily. The blame is on them.
I'm saying it's justified by the rules of war which you and others don't seem to get.
Israel's objectives are the surrender of Hamas, the return of hostages and ensure Oct 7 never happens again.
What is the correct number of casualties to achieve these objectives?
2k, 5k, 10k, 20k, 50k or 100k
All of the above. It doesn't matter how many are killed.
As a defender Israel isn't breaking any rules of war in going about their objectives. That is why this arbitrary 30k figure you quoted and think is significant is meaningless.
While a lot of care is taken to minimise casualties it's a war. People seem to think wars can be fought with no casualties now. Who are these people?
If anything the question is why aren't the casualties higher. Israel has achieved a 1 to 1 combatant to civilian kill ratio. That is unheard of in urban warfare. In Iraq & Afghanistan it was 1 to 3-5 meaning 3 to 5 civilians lost to collateral damage for every combatant. The global average is 9 to 1.
Urban warfare is harder than mountain warfare. How are these guys pulling it off. This conflict will be studied by war colleges for a long time as a new record has been set for how low the casualties have been for an urban warfare scenario.
Anyone arguing Israel isn't being careful is ignorant or has an agenda. But then the media takes everything Hamas says as true only to be shown as false and applies a microscope to every casualty caused by Israel.
Who you listen to matters big time here. I've been following Israeli media and pro government commentators like I do with this country or any other. They have given me a good sense of what the Israelis think.
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@blr_p You are so delusional and blinded by hatred towards one religion that you're justifying killing of children and babies, innocent civilians, and women for a fight towards terrorism?
You keep shouting oct 7, did you not read the official israel news where they said they accidentally bombed it's own civilians? Hamas is terrorist, I agree. But Israel Zionists are far more vicious terrorists.
Your humanity has gone down the drain if you think israel is in the right. If only you had a heart you'd feel the pain of Palestinians who've been suffering for the last 70+ years. I despise people who see this and call it a fair fight.
You keep shouting oct 7, did you not read the official israel news where they said they accidentally bombed it's own civilians? Hamas is terrorist, I agree. But Israel Zionists are far more vicious terrorists.
Your humanity has gone down the drain if you think israel is in the right. If only you had a heart you'd feel the pain of Palestinians who've been suffering for the last 70+ years. I despise people who see this and call it a fair fight.
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superczar
Keymaster
I think there is where you get it wrong fundamentally.
If only the world were this black & white.
There are no metal gymnastics here. I just pointed out a simple logical fallacy
I i stated that the actions by both Hamas and Israel are deplorable
Your hypothesis is that only one side is in the wrong
To justify your stance, you reason that there are others who see only the alternate POV . These others are wrong (TRUE) , therefore I must be right (Logical Fallacy)
I believe you really need to explore this topic, especially on the economic limitations and freedom of movement constraints of Gaza a bit more (and I am not saying this in an offensive way at all)
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I will do this in pictures as people are writing essays.
About Hamas
About Gaza and Zionist propaganda
If we are quoting scriptures, we should know that they are mythical books with not much historical basis.
The Jews who colonised Palestine were Europeans. So, they had no right to the Arab land, just because they were Jew. They had nothing to do with West Asia. In fact the African Jews are still oppressed inside Israel.
People arguing the UN charter, must know that it was org created by the allied forces. They were equally responsible for the repression of the Jews.
Also opposing Zionism is not anti-Semitism. In fact the violence in Arabs is anti-Semitic as well, as Islam is an Abrahamic religion, which recognises both Christianity and Judaism.
Islamophobia is rampant in the world today, and quite as bad in India as well. It allows even the c prime minister of the country to call citizens infiltrators and terrorists. That's just shameful.
So, request to people to think about why they are justifying killings.
The killing of civilians is as Hamas did on October 7 may not seem justifiable to some. But look up Warsaw Ghetto and read about how Jews killed civilians then. Or how Khudi Ram Bose did, in Britain.
About Hamas
About Gaza and Zionist propaganda
If we are quoting scriptures, we should know that they are mythical books with not much historical basis.
The Jews who colonised Palestine were Europeans. So, they had no right to the Arab land, just because they were Jew. They had nothing to do with West Asia. In fact the African Jews are still oppressed inside Israel.
People arguing the UN charter, must know that it was org created by the allied forces. They were equally responsible for the repression of the Jews.
Also opposing Zionism is not anti-Semitism. In fact the violence in Arabs is anti-Semitic as well, as Islam is an Abrahamic religion, which recognises both Christianity and Judaism.
Islamophobia is rampant in the world today, and quite as bad in India as well. It allows even the c prime minister of the country to call citizens infiltrators and terrorists. That's just shameful.
So, request to people to think about why they are justifying killings.
The killing of civilians is as Hamas did on October 7 may not seem justifiable to some. But look up Warsaw Ghetto and read about how Jews killed civilians then. Or how Khudi Ram Bose did, in Britain.
blr_p
Oracle
That's your opinion. I've told you mine
It is that black & white just that some people don't want to admit it.
Moral equivalence again.
Let's equate a democracy with a genocidal terrorist group and it's supporters. And when said democracy takes actions to defend themselves come up with all manner of arguments to prevent them from winning. Because they are no better than the bad guys. Right?
Implication is you have no right to self defence. And you must be a bad person if you disagree.
So who were the bad guys on Oct 7
Kids at the top universities don't know. This is a problem. A very big one.
Who started Oct 7? There was a ceasefire in place. Israelis didn't want this war.
People ask for nuance. That went out the window the moment shots were fired. Could things be any more shockingly clear.
Those victims who supported the arabs what are they supposed to think? A elderly Canadian woman who used to ferry kids, from Gaza back and forth to Israeli hospitals because better healthcare was found burnt to a crisp.
They never listened to her and she'd been doing it for many years. She definitely thought she knew those people.
All your former assumptions, beliefs/hopes were negated that day. You were wrong and if in the wrong place you paid for it with your life in a most horrific manner.
These protests support terrorists. They break all manner of rules to do so and like the real terrorists expect to get away with it. But they won't, all this is going to be investigated and actions taken.
This is not some logical fallacy but a statement of reality.
And maybe you should examine the biases of people who put out those reports. I have never seen so much lies spread about a people before. But then this cottage industry has been going for more than half a century with a complicit media.
The Israelis have truth on their side. They don't have to manipulate reality. The Pals do. The Pals have to create narratives that aren't real and they have to lie about it. Which Israel does not have to do and consequently has it easier.
A people were left to their own devices with plenty of aid coming in. They could have turned it into a wealthy tourist destination. Instead the aid went into building a tunnel system that rivals the NYC subway. Why? For a future war.
If you were looking to test this two state solution idea then Gaza was the ideal case. Zero Israeli presence since 2005. How did it turn out? We know on Oct 7.
A better future did not happen because they were run by a group whose charter calls for the destruction of Israel. Their representatives have said they will do it again and again. I would believe them.
Who wouldn't want a better future for their family or community? This is where the Israelis got it fundamentally wrong. They thought the Gazans were like them. Humanism. I don't know how to blame them for this. The scary bit it's the pros that got it wrong. The hardest people to convince were the military. Juniors kept coming up with warnings months before. They were slammed for being alarmist and told to shut up.
Do you think Hamas would have stopped at 1,200. If they could get 12k, 120k or even 1.2 million? No, because this is a genocidal terror group. There is no way to deter a group like that. It has to be taken out.
Doesn't get more black & white than that
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Arguing about 30k deaths of hamas is useless, It derails the real discussion. I.e. unless Palestinians edit out jew hatred from their books and culture, nothing will change.
Israel is just a lightening rod. We should all be grateful to them for fighting this war. As our pak friends (a close palestinian ally) say, yahood-o-hanood-o-nasara are the enemy. Israel is just the current target,
How may civillians did the pak army kill in 1971 in bengal. 3 million. The same army that holds the record for killing the maximum number of palestinians in a day (Jordan, July 71). I am still waiting for college protests against them.
Just had this thought. I wonder if it will withstand scrutiny. The two wars that have started under Biden's presidency are exactly the two major wars Mr Adolf fought. One against the Jews and the other one against Russia. There is something common between Mr Adolf and Biden, but I cant mention it here. G-d only knows who is pulling the strings.
BTW, which side in this conflict supports Gazwa-a-hind?
Israel is just a lightening rod. We should all be grateful to them for fighting this war. As our pak friends (a close palestinian ally) say, yahood-o-hanood-o-nasara are the enemy. Israel is just the current target,
How may civillians did the pak army kill in 1971 in bengal. 3 million. The same army that holds the record for killing the maximum number of palestinians in a day (Jordan, July 71). I am still waiting for college protests against them.
Just had this thought. I wonder if it will withstand scrutiny. The two wars that have started under Biden's presidency are exactly the two major wars Mr Adolf fought. One against the Jews and the other one against Russia. There is something common between Mr Adolf and Biden, but I cant mention it here. G-d only knows who is pulling the strings.
BTW, which side in this conflict supports Gazwa-a-hind?
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blr_p
Oracle
It happened at a law school of all places
No kidding..
Which means political actions does not apply to foreign students. Let's see how this case goes because if successful will result in a slew of similar cases across the EU.
In India this isn't even up for debate. Foreigners don't have the right to free speech or assembly. So any protests will be seen as violation of student visa rules and then it's upto the government to take a call
'National threat': Pro-October 7 Palestinian student has UK student visa revoked
The former law student had been recorded stating she was "full of joy" about the Hamas attack on October 7.
jpost.com
There was this case earlier of a Palestinian student in the UK. Also a law student btw
She's a 19yr old and has a legal team?
Whether it applies to foreigners is the question. Nothing more as she goes on.
There is no appeals process for a visa cancellation at the home office so it's not clear what is happening.
Reads like an Indian law
That's why they cancelled her visa.
Supposed to be a law student...
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blr_p
Oracle
Exactly why it's mentioned. To bully you into submission.
Saudis & Emiratis have already done it with their school texts
Saudi Arabia improves Israel references, reduces antisemitism in textbooks
Saudi Arabia replaces descriptions of Israel as the 'enemy' in textbooks and erases 'Palestine' from maps; Research shows that Saudi textbooks are changing their outlook on Israel, not denying Jewish presence in the region and toning down the anti-Israeli content
UAE will teach Holocaust education in national school curriculum
The UAE is the first Arab state to officially include Holocaust education in its school curriculum.
jpost.com
Get rid of unrwa and work with Arab partners to change the next generation.
Tie external funding to compliance
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superczar
Keymaster
@dpandey @blr_p
Most armed conflicts have two sides to the story - with the possible exception of outright territorial expansion (which thankfully are way less prevalent today vs the medieval ages)
The core issue (as always) is rights to land in this case - the only difference being that for a change, both sides have a reasonable claim to said land.
I do not lay claim to being an expert to say which side has a stronger claim - but it would be stupid to say that only one side has a valid claim.
The key difference however is that only one aggrieved party has the regular civil & human rights that you would expect in the 21st century - while the second party has severely limited human empowerment /freedom of movement/ freedom to carry out economic activity - As imposed by the first party
Please do not quote the victor takes all theory to justify the above - It's an intrinsically wrong argument for the 21st century: the same justification would also hold good for the British occupation of India and the corresponding loss of human and economic rights for the local population
Lastly, While most folks seem to intrinsically understand that real life is not a Bollywood movie from the 80s - with its cliched & caricatured absolute villains / virtuosity personified heroes
but for some reason, that's the stance you guys have taken - and that renders this whole thread and discussion an exercise in futility
Most armed conflicts have two sides to the story - with the possible exception of outright territorial expansion (which thankfully are way less prevalent today vs the medieval ages)
The core issue (as always) is rights to land in this case - the only difference being that for a change, both sides have a reasonable claim to said land.
I do not lay claim to being an expert to say which side has a stronger claim - but it would be stupid to say that only one side has a valid claim.
The key difference however is that only one aggrieved party has the regular civil & human rights that you would expect in the 21st century - while the second party has severely limited human empowerment /freedom of movement/ freedom to carry out economic activity - As imposed by the first party
Please do not quote the victor takes all theory to justify the above - It's an intrinsically wrong argument for the 21st century: the same justification would also hold good for the British occupation of India and the corresponding loss of human and economic rights for the local population
Lastly, While most folks seem to intrinsically understand that real life is not a Bollywood movie from the 80s - with its cliched & caricatured absolute villains / virtuosity personified heroes
but for some reason, that's the stance you guys have taken - and that renders this whole thread and discussion an exercise in futility
> the same justification would also hold good for the British occupation of India
Jews were natives of that land from times of known civilization. They were annihilated from that place multiple times, taken as slaves, etc. still comes back.
British were not natives of Indian peninsula.
Just like how Indian public have sentimental and moral rights to correct injustices done against them (in civil manner obviously) to thrive in their land, natives of Israel does have their own rights.
Other than having same religion, many other countries clamoring against Israel in this conflict have not a grain of connection to this place.
I think it's better to close this thread by mods, because actual transparent discussions on this topic can open a can of worms beyond scope of TE.
Jews were natives of that land from times of known civilization. They were annihilated from that place multiple times, taken as slaves, etc. still comes back.
British were not natives of Indian peninsula.
Just like how Indian public have sentimental and moral rights to correct injustices done against them (in civil manner obviously) to thrive in their land, natives of Israel does have their own rights.
Other than having same religion, many other countries clamoring against Israel in this conflict have not a grain of connection to this place.
I think it's better to close this thread by mods, because actual transparent discussions on this topic can open a can of worms beyond scope of TE.
superczar
Keymaster
North American lands were inhabited by Native Americans - European settlers were not natives of North America
Present Day Mumbai was inhabited by the Koli community. Parsis , Gujaratis and Bohri Muslims were not natives of the Mumbai region
(And all of these displacements are far more recent than the displacement you are referring to)
If somehow current day native Americans and/or Kolis and other similarly historically displaced communities could amass the necessary firepower to drive the current multi-generational inhabitants out, that would be fair too, right?
Look - I am not even saying that present day Jewish communities do not have right to this land. Even if you were to ignore the mythology and old history, the current inhabitants have put in a lot of work and effort over the last couple of generations to make this land their own home.
But that does not mean that it is fair to cram the existing multi-generational inhabitants of that land like sardines into dense enclaves
And then curtail their freedom of movement/ freedom to pursue economic activities/ control their inbound & outbound goods/ limit access to basics like power and water (and now food too)
And while what Hamas did was unacceptable, applying collective punishment in retaliation on an already severely underprivileged group is brutally medieval
Yet If you think the above is right then just apply the same logic to so many other historically displaced communities and you will realize what's flawed in your argument
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Not to mention that's a pretty slippery slope even under best conditions you seem to forget that "India" as a whole did not exist anytime in history before British rule outside of Mythology as "Bharat". Lots of kings & kingdoms of natives have massacred a lot of ppl in their days the most famous example of which is Ashoka's Maurya kingdom & more recently the later Maratha raids against other natives until the 3rd battle of Panipat which they expectedly lost because of such reasons.
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