Police clamp down on anti-israel protests

[TEUser2K1]

All Indian groups are within Indian peninsula only, nobody is preventing them from thriving and living in their native lands.

Likewise, no body is preventing native Indians in USA from thriving in their country right now, rather some say they have more rights. Not at all negating dark injustices against them, but given the current life situation, they have every opportunity to do better.

The case in discussion here is one party is ready to accommodate many other parties, but other parties are not even willing to admit the first party even have right to live on earth. There is a limit to these kind of hypocrisy in 2024.

 

[guest_999]

Likewise, no body is preventing native Indians in USA from thriving in their country right now, rather some say they have more rights.

That's not an example one should give here.

What Drives Native American Poverty?: Institute for Policy Research - Northwestern University

Across the U.S., 1 in 3 Native Americans are living in poverty, with a median income of $23,000 a year. Beth Redbird presented her research on what has been driving this poverty rate among Native Americans at a January 29 seminar. It was co-sponsored by the Center for Native American and...

www.ipr.northwestern.edu

 

[TEUser2K1]

>Sociologist Beth Redbird’s research points to job loss, not education, as a key driver.

In an article from Feb.'2020.
Job loss hit everyone almost equally, also depend of type of jobs they enter into, it is a complex topic.

Many of these people stays in their reserves, generally out of touch with real world happenings since they want a different lifestyle which is okay, given special provisions, etc. etc.
Much is talked about this topic, but those in virtue signalling business brings up new crappy ideas for their own benefit.

 

[mallik]

North American lands were inhabited by Native Americans - European settlers were not natives of North America
Present Day Mumbai was inhabited by the Koli community. Parsis , Gujaratis and Bohri Muslims were not natives of the Mumbai region
(And all of these displacements are far more recent than the displacement you are referring to)

If somehow current day native Americans and/or Kolis and other similarly historically displaced communities could amass the necessary firepower to drive the current multi-generational inhabitants out, that would be fair too, right?

Look - I am not even saying that present day Jewish communities do not have right to this land. Even if you were to ignore the mythology and old history, the current inhabitants have put in a lot of work and effort over the last couple of generations to make this land their own home.

But that does not mean that it is fair to cram the existing multi-generational inhabitants of that land like sardines into dense enclaves
And then curtail their freedom of movement/ freedom to pursue economic activities/ control their inbound & outbound goods/ limit access to basics like power and water (and now food too)
And while what Hamas did was unacceptable, applying collective punishment in retaliation on an already severely underprivileged group is brutally medieval

Yet If you think the above is right then just apply the same logic to so many other historically displaced communities and you will realize what's flawed in your argument

The inhabitants of the Palestinian land never said no to any Jewish immigrant, when initially they came in, during the 1920-30s.

However, to displace and oppress a community, and give the rhetoric of democracy and work done is a weak argument to justify decades of violence.

European settlers did everything wrong. They did the same thing to the Indian subcontinent as well. They do not admit it, but that doesn't mean that they did not commit large scale atrocities, apartheid and genocide. These things need to be changed. Doesn't mean that the settlers and natives can not coexist. But there should be acknowledgement of wrongs, and respect and opportunities for the rights of the indigenous community. Which the settlers are not ready to do. That is the whole point of the Republican party's current stance in the US.

In India too, Dalits are ostracised, and Adivasis demonised as Maoists. Because that narrative suits the corporates to plunder the natural resources, without consulting the actual stake holders.

> the same justification would also hold good for the British occupation of India
Jews were natives of that land from times of known civilization. They were annihilated from that place multiple times, taken as slaves, etc. still comes back.
British were not natives of Indian peninsula.
Just like how Indian public have sentimental and moral rights to correct injustices done against them (in civil manner obviously) to thrive in their land, natives of Israel does have their own rights.
Other than having same religion, many other countries clamoring against Israel in this conflict have not a grain of connection to this place.
I think it's better to close this thread by mods, because actual transparent discussions on this topic can open a can of worms beyond scope of TE.

Being Jew doesn't mean they are natives. I can convert to Christianity, but that won't mean I am European.

European Jews are/were European. They had/have no traditional right on land in West Asia. They are not indigenous.

Most people who live in West Asia are from that land. They are Arabs. Whether they are Muslim, Jew, Christian, or even paganic.

 

[blr_p]

The two hosts do a good job of explaining to this kid that her understanding of genocide isn't what she thinks it is. But no go. Ten minutes later she reverts back to her talking points.

Finally they ask her whether she admits Hamas is a terrorist organisation. She dodges the question saying she's not there to discuss Hamas but clearly nothing she supports affects Hamas and only targets Israel. This seems to be the pattern with these groups. She says she can't affect what Hamas does. Meaning the terrorists get a pass but for some reason thinks she can affect Israel's behaviour. Which benefits Hamas.

She comes from some new outfit that started two months back called 'Youth Demand'

Our second demand is to impose a two-way arms embargo on the state of Israel, so that means we stop selling them weapons and we stop buying their weapons. We sever all the links between the UK and the Israeli war machine.”

This would hurt the UK more than Israel since Elbit does have drone factories in the UK. Whose factories have seen protests. All the UK provides Israel with is spare parts.

Of note that she isn't even aware of the war Saudis had with Yemen with over 150k dead Yemenis. UK do provide actual arms to Saudis but this isn't a concern for her. She's very clear UK must stop two way arms trade with Israel. Very Israel specific.

Why have two out of the three demonstrations been directed at Labour when the UK has a Conservative government?
Sarti said the group believed the current government had no legitimacy and was on the way out.

Tories won a majority back in 2019 yet for some reason people believe they will lose come next month when UK goes to the polls.

“The job that the Labour party has is to be the opposition – they have a responsibility to set the political agenda but they don’t seem interested in doing that,” she said. “They are the failed opposition, they are the failed government in waiting.

It's an election year. Any street action benefits left leaning parties. These outfits are benefitting from the likes of Soros et al.

Just stop oil are another affiliate whose annoying antics are known. These groups are small and go for media attention. They have been peaceful. On their own.


Other extreme left groups like 'Palestine Action' are not and need to be dealt with.

Proscribe ‘extreme protest groups’ like Palestine Action, government advised

Palestine Action has been reported to police for offering tips on ‘smashing windows’ and ‘breaking in’ to buildings

www.thejc.com

extreme protest groups routinely use criminal tactics to achieve their aims. If the report’s recommendations are implemented, the ability for groups to cause serious disruption or use criminal offences to influence public debate could be curtailed.

Youth demand collaborated with Palestine Action to graffiti the MOD's building. That is what you can see in the thumbnail. So are youth demand peaceful or not

Protest tactics such as the destruction of property, causing injury, or other serious disruption would count against a protest group. If activities disrupt democratic institutions or businesses, a group might be proscribed under the new category.

Just abusing the freedoms for subversion motives.

Earlier this year, ministers reported Palestine Action to police by ministers for allegedly inciting violence in its "underground manual", which advised protesters on “smashing windows”, and “breaking into your target and damaging the contents”.

How soon until these tactics are used to commit hate crimes like targeting jewish schools, businesses and synagogues. They already are but now the frequency will increase if action isn't taken.

 

[blr_p]

The enemy is not hamas. Hamas is just a fake made up group like Palestine.

Find out who is funding hamas and subdue them.

It's complicated. Jews & Persians have had good relations for over a couple of millenia. Babylonians sacked Judea, destroyed the first temple and carted back the Jews as slaves to Babylon.

Some years later Cyrus the great defeats the Babylonians, frees the Jews and helps them build their second temple. This was around 500 BC. The Jews have never forgotten this. It's only post '79 that relations between the two people get sour.



The Iranian flag, the one predating the Islamic republic with the lion and sun is common to see at pro Israel rallies. A lot of the Iranian diaspora support Israel. Especially those that lost loved ones to the Islamic regime. Completely opposed to the Islamic Republics stated stance of wiping Israel off the map. These people proudly identify as Persian first and whatever else next.

Was chatting with some relatives and they told me during the 70s there were many Iranian students in Bangalore. They would end up in three camps. Commies, Islamists and pro shah. Frequently these guys would get into street brawls with each other with the local police having to intervene. So I think these restrictions on foreigners right to speech & assembly must date to that era.

Back in Apr, just after Iran sent those 300 missiles & rockets to Israel, this woman's video went viral and she's become a celebrity since. At the time there was this tension whether a regional war would break out.

She asks the protesters where were they when the Islamic Republic was cracking down on people in Iran. Especially the hijab thing. Dissidents hung from cranes etc. She's sees these protesters as supporting the Islamic Republic which is so weird when the US is considered their greatest enemy. And not the people of Iran. She resents these students call for war between Israel and Iran because it is ordinary Iranian people that will suffer.

She also wants us to stop referring to the Islamic Republic as Iran. Iran for her is not the Islamic Republic.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1795952220086702326

Dear university students in the United States of America, this message is an expression of our empathy and solidarity with you. As the page of history is turning, you are standing on the right side of it.

You have now formed a branch of the Resistance Front and have begun an honorable struggle in the face of your government's ruthless pressure—a government which openly supports the usurper and brutal Zionist regime.

This is insane. These kids are definitely on the wrong side of history when the bloody Ayatollah thanks them for their solidarity

So in addition to Qatar, behind the scenes there is IRGC support for these protests. The adversary is running operations inside the US and getting American students to bat for them. Wake up America

What triggered her was the realisation that the people behind Oct 7 are the same people oppressing the Iranian people. And if these students support Hamas then they also support the Islamic Republic.

She explains how she realised what she learnt and knew about Israel & Jews was wrong as were the friends she hung around with during her teens in London.

It's interesting she points out the support inside Iran among people for the IDF seeing them as some saviour that can liberate them from the mullah regime. The gulf countries increasingly view the IDF as a defender from the Islamic Republic as well.

That is why Jordan and Saudi openly admitted to cooperating to defend Israel during the Iranian missile attack in April. Not out of any love for Israel but when missiles fly over your head you realise you too could be a target in the future. Saudis have already got a taste of this from the houthis and the Americans have blown hot & cold. That won't happen with Israel.

And so the transformation of the old evil Jews into defender & saviour from another more pressing evil among Arab as well as Iranian.

Haha!

Good one MIT

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1796335168598241425

 

[variablevector]

What is everyone's personal tolerance for the murder of innocents? Let's do a fun thought experiment. Imagine there is a room filled with 10 people. One of them is a hardened terrorist, and 9 of them are innocent children, women and men. There is a big red button in front of you that release Zykoln B gas into the room, killing everyone inside it. Should you press it?

No? What if it the ratio is now 5 terrorists to 5 innocents? Or how about 9 terrorists and 1 innocent person? What if the innocent person is kind of annoying and believes in different things than you? I'm being serious.

I believe the murder of innocents is never morally correct. Not under any circumstances. This is a difficult standard to keep to in the real world. Especially during war. But maintain it and you will get to keep your humanity. Break this rule and you now have to draw a line somewhere in the sand, which gets blurrier and blurrier and increasingly harder to find as things get more complicated -- until you reach a point where you are no longer sure if your goals are even good for the world anymore. And one day you find yourself asking: Hans, are we the baddies?

 

[imad7x]

There is a big red button in front of you that release Zykoln B gas into the room, killing everyone inside it. Should you press it?

I think @blr_p and a few others here would decide based on this logic.
If Jews:
"Dont press the button"
Elif Muslims:
Muslim=Hamas
If Hamas:
"Press the button"

 

[dpandey]

I believe the murder of innocents is never morally correct. Not under any circumstances.

Could you clarify what you mean by 'innocent'?

Is someone who wants to kill me and teaches his/her kids to wipe people like me off the face of the earth but doesn't have the means, 'innocent'?

As an Indian, am I morally allowed to kill the pakistani 'expert' who announces every evening on TV 'India hamara azlee dushman hai'?

What am I supposed to do with someone who considers me an enemy?

If you are going to bring up the 'women and children' crutch, maybe you should read up on gaza resident's moral codes about how to treat enemy's women and children.

They are fighting a thousand year old war. They have a lot of common history and they will find ways to move forward. Any outsider who doesn't share their history (that includes Iran, both Arab and Israelis planes shot down Iranian drones in the recent attack) is just a coffee house expert. Their opinion is little more than noise.

 

[blr_p]

To show how ignorant these kids are you have the turn the clock back.

Before these protests and no gag orders were in effect. Purpose of which is to prevent dialogue, exchange of ideas and learning. The very reason that universities exist.

Before this 'tentifada' , students hung out like anywhere else arguing. They didn't wear masks.

A full year before Oct 7 but it could have been done yesterday given the responses. At UC Berkeley, known for its student activism.

What's notable is this guy around the 2:00 mark refusing to believe Israeli Arabs have the same rights as Jews. She uses the longer form 'Palestinian Arabs in Israel' but it's the same thing.

In fact as Arabs more rights than anywhere else in the Arab world. They do get vote in elections because Israeli Arabs are Israeli citizens.

This is why you have Arab parties in Israel's parliament. But he isn't aware there even is such a thing as Israeli Arabs and gets upset when she contradicts him.

The next thing she exposes is they don't know what Zionism means.

Zionism means acknowledging the right of Israel as a state to exist. If you accept Israel has a right to exist then you are a Zionist or accept Zionism.

You should see this other students face around 4:50 when she tells him that. Priceless. This moment when he realises all he thought he knew about the subject was a lie.

That is why anti zionism or refusal of Israel to exist is anti semitism. Earlier Suella kept asking this question for this reason.

Because the only way that can now happen is if the Jews are pushed out and Israel is wiped off the map. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

Another trope that I heard here is Jews are white. She didn't get into it properly. There is a cunning motive behind this statement.

It's to disassociate Jews from the land. If they're white they must come from elsewhere. Hence they are not indigenous but rather colonial settlers and need to go back to Europe.



Jews are not a race. They are a people. They're called Jews because they originate from Judea. They have had an association with the land going back over three millenia. They have always maintained a continuous presence in the land through the occupation of the Romans, Byzantines, first Arab conquest, Crusades, Mamluks, Turks, British, Jordanian and after the six day war in '67 finally won control of Jerusalem.

 

[Neotheone]

Could you clarify what you mean by 'innocent'?

That question seems to show that you're uncomfortable treating civilians as innocents. That to me, and to most of the world is the commonsense definition. It is possible that some of these innocent civilians hate you or me, but hatred is just a thought crime, and generated almost always due to religious or nationalist conditioning due to propaganda that religions and states need to exist. That tendency to use propaganda and myth is true for all religions and states, without exception, but that is not the point of discussion here.

PS: "Coffee house experts" is a label and assertions of outsider's opinions being noise seems to be a convenient way to not consider inconvenient things that might force reflection. It is often possible to separate signal from noise using tools from Epistemology. And I submit that ignoring even thoughtfully formed views based on an outsider or a coffee house expert label is quite immature and a form of ad-hominem attack, particularly because some truths can be more easily visible to outside neutral observers who are not influenced by propaganda.

 

[blr_p]

Niall Ferguson: The Treason of the Intellectuals

Anyone who has a naive belief in the power of higher education to instill morality has not studied the history of German universities in the Third Reich.

www.thefp.com

Prescient article from last December that goes into how nazism in Germany was mainstreamed. At its top colleges

In the 20s German colleges had the Nobel prize winners. The most American colleges could boast about was their football scores. Yet nazism was welcome at German colleges and this kind of thinking spread to other German elites over time.

It's scary how similar the present behaviour towards jewish students is at these American colleges. It has to be combated before things get out of hand.

 

[blr_p]

Interesting insights how to deal with campus protesters from an undercover cop who was active during BLM.

Riot Tactics Redux

A veteran officer explains how police should incorporate lessons from 2020 in responding to pro-Hamas campus unrest.

www.city-journal.org

Rufo: I’ve noticed that, in some cities, universities are requesting that local police departments intervene and disband encampments, and the local police departments are flat-out refusing.

Young: The police departments don’t want to get involved. If you look on Twitter, the activists are basically saying, “the cops are champing at the bit to crack the skulls of these poor students who just want end a genocide.” No, they aren’t. The police don’t want to deal with all the drama and the lawsuits that are going to come from it.

Not very encouraging I have to say

Rufo: If you were advising law enforcement in New York, Chicago, Philadelphia, Los Angeles, how would you tell them to approach the current wave of campus protests?

Young: I would avoid getting involved as much as possible. The universities created this problem, and it’s not fair for them to ask the cops to come in and fix it. The universities have their own security forces. The state schools have their own police forces.

They can expel people. They created this mess; it seems like they really encouraged it. Then it got out of hand, and now they want to be rescued. There’s no upside for the cities and police departments to bail out the universities.

 

[altair21]

India has been adopting many of the methods used by Israel to repress Palestinians and other nations around it (bulldozing buildings, tech spying).
So, it's not surprising that people here support Israel and the violence.

If you think Yogi Adityanath bulldozing mafia owned illegal building (assuming this is what you meant by bulldozing buildings) is in the same vein as Israel committing regular human rights violation against Palestine then you are just as deluded as the people who support Israel blindly.

See, this is what I dont get by people like you and the muslim leaders in general, why is every ****ing thing has to be about islam or islamophobia if god forbid a muslim person is involved in the incident? why is it so hard to say that illegal buildings owned by mafia were demolished? even here you gotta draw parallels between Palestine and India, Same with Ateek Ahmed case, all Muslim leaders like Owaisi and parties like SP decried this incident saying how he was killed because he was a Muslim and how Muslims are being suppressed, like why is it so hard to admit that a murderer who destroyed countless families for profit, a murderer who exploited people, a mafia with ties to Dawood died? like why every single thing has to be about religion or islamophobia?

The Jews who colonised Palestine were Europeans. So, they had no right to the Arab land, just because they were Jew. They had nothing to do with West Asia. In fact the African Jews are still oppressed inside Israel.

what are you even talking about? what exactly is "Arab Land " for you? Palestine was originally populated by Jews, like you do know that its the birthplace for Judaism religions? Jews have as much of a right to it as Muslims, in fact the Ottoman Empire aka native Palestine residents (according to you) conquered Palestine and drove away Jews, and if you really wanna play the blame game then blame Britian and Europe in general who decided to dump all Jews in Palestine, and Palestine didnt help matters by attacking the Jews outright in successive wars and losing them. Here, some reading for you about Palestine's history.

Also opposing Zionism is not anti-Semitism. In fact the violence in Arabs is anti-Semitic as well, as Islam is an Abrahamic religion, which recognises both Christianity and Judaism.

again, go read up on the definition of Zionism, you are literally anti-semitic if you oppose zionism

Islamophobia is rampant in the world today, and quite as bad in India as well. It allows even the c prime minister of the country to call citizens infiltrators and terrorists. That's just shameful.

and for good reason, there have been way too many atrocities committed in India itself that if I start listing them out, I would be called an islamophobe on spot, I dont believe in any radical ideology thats espoused by idiots online but if you start crying Islamophobia and simultaneously commit even more atrocities then you do you

The killing of civilians is as Hamas did on October 7 may not seem justifiable to some. But look up Warsaw Ghetto and read about how Jews killed civilians then. Or how Khudi Ram Bose did, in Britain.

I just read up on Warsaw Ghetto on Wikipedia and didnt see anything about Jews murdering civilians, care to give out some sources for this? would love to read up on it. I do agree with your Khudi Ram Bose point and the parallels that can be drawn with Palestine

 

[imad7x]

Jews have historical ties to Palestine. The modern conflict stems from establishment of the state of Israel. There are several video like this where Israelis have stolen Palestinian lands.

@altair21 - you are literally anti-semitic if you oppose zionism

Zionism clearly states that Jews have privileges that others don’t. Is opposing this anti-Semitism? It's not. The zionist minded people is what led to the killing of children, and you still wouldn't oppose zionism?

 

[blr_p]

Protesters saying they want to burn UCLA (their college) to the ground..

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1800969707597726178

Have posted some of this reporters clips where he gets pushed around (assaulted is the legal term) just for filming the encampments.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1800371923916103767

Vice chancellor of UCLA gets harassed when addressing the students and has to walk away. When you pander to these characters this is what you get.

Remember what the governor of Florida said about not letting the inmates run the asylum?

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1800596895527514515

You just wanna what sweetie? HA HA. watch how quickly she disappears into the phalanx of the police.

Had the UCLA administration done this from the start. You know actually grow a spine, things would not have got this bad.

 

[altair21]

Jews have historical ties to Palestine. The modern conflict stems from establishment of the state of Israel. There are several video like this where Israelis have stolen Palestinian lands.

yeah and I'm not gonna defend any side, both sides have committed unspeakable atrocities to each other, but spreading misinformation aint gonna help anyone,

Zionism clearly states that Jews have privileges that others don’t. Is opposing this anti-Semitism? It's not.

Zionism literally means a movement which worked towards establishing a state for jews aka Israel, being an anti-zionist means you literally oppose the existence of Israel, why is it so hard to get that? you are anti-semitic if you oppose the formation of their homeland.

The zionist minded people is what led to the killing of children, and you still wouldn't oppose zionism?

And Hamas raped/killed innocent people during the Oct 7 attacks, there are videos where Hamas militants took turns raping a dead body and then beheading it, where they raped a mother in front of her children and have you forgotten the video where that poor woman was stripped naked and paraded through Gaza with every civilian cheering it on and spitting on her? or the fact that most of the hostages are probably dead? See, how easy it is to accuse the side you are defending of even worse atrocities? Thats why I am not taking sides in this conflict

 

[blr_p]

You have students that want to burn their college down. You got another group that wants to sue their college. A lot of pissed off, high fee paying, Jewish parents finding the college unwilling to enforce existing rules to ensure their kids are safe.

If this was against blacks, the president of the US would be talking about it. Action would be swift. But yeah it's only Jews so no biggie.

I was going to mention a couple of cases until I discovered there are over 60 suits filed as of end March

Jewish students complain about outrageous hate speech from colleagues and professors—and university administrators, typically eager to root out bigotry against other minorities, decline to take action.

In this, critics say, they have betrayed not just the ethos of the universities, but Title VI of the Civil Rights Act, which compels institutions to take action against discrimination and harassment.

Does Suing Colleges for Antisemitism Actually Work? (The Free Press) - Brandeis Center

Does Suing Colleges for Antisemitism Actually Work? (The Free Press)

brandeiscenter.com

Does suing work? Columbia settled and that's a good sign for others to follow

Columbia reaches settlement in class action suit alleging hostile environment for Jewish students, establishes additional security measures

Columbia will hire a “Safe Passage Liaison” and maintain a 24/7 Public Safety escort program as part of its Tuesday settlement of a class action lawsuit, filed by a Jewish student in late April in response to an alleged rise in “round-the-clock harassment of Jewish students” on and near...

www.columbiaspectator.com

Columbia agrees to enforce rules, already on the books. They caved quickly to a suit filed anonymously by a second year student.

Why Lawsuits Against Campus Antisemitism May Succeed (Podcast)

On today’s episode of our podcast, On The Merits, Bloomberg News reporter David Voreacos talks about campus antisemitism litigation and and why the 2019 policy change could pose problems for the universities facing the lawsuits. We also hear from two attorneys representing Jewish students in...

news.bloomberglaw.com

Though these suits largely stem from an increase in antisemitic incidents since Oct. 7 and the start of the Israel-Hamas conflict, attorneys say the groundwork for them was laid with an executive order back in 2019.

That’s when the Trump administration adopted a newer, more broad definition of antisemitism for civil rights claims under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

Yay for Trump

 

[Afxal]

Damn! Some guys really do know how to wisely spend their free time (assuming that this is done in free time). It must be a hobby or something, otherwise one won't spend this much energy and time to win an internet debate expanding over 2 months.

 

[TEUser2K1]

ime to win an internet debate expanding over 2 months.

To be fair with them, the core topic of the discussion is as old as human civilization which probably won't resolve till end of world.