TheIndian
Skilled
What makes you say BJP and its allies are worse than Congress?
Whom are you going to vote in India in 2013-14 elections?
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What makes you say BJP and its allies are worse than Congress?
Brendon
Skilled
Do you honestly believe the BJP is not a corrupt party ?
If you do then lets agree to disagree right here.
Two of the former BJP party presidents have been indicted for corruption and I refuse to believe for one second that the corruption ends at the top and does not spread to the rest of the BJP.
I have lived in Mumbai all my life and I have seen first hand the disdain the BJPs parter the Shiv Sena has towards minorities. They target schools run by minorities and according to their definition I am an outsider regardless that I have been born here.
Similarly every year they go around assaulting couples on Valantines day along with good measure of smashing a few shops that dare to sell valantine day memoribilia.
The Congress is in power both in the center and in the state but precious little is done to curb such incidents.
If the BJP and Shiv Sena are voted to power and I have no doubts that they will be more bold to do worse to people who they don't see as 'sons of the soil'.
There are plenty of articles on violence against Christians in India with a lot of fingers pointed towards the BJP and the Sangh. I am just posting a few.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Christian_violence_in_India
http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Weed-out-Christianity,-says-Hindu-BJP-nationalist-leader-19235.html
http://articles.timesofindia.indiat...29387931_1_incidents-teargas-shells-karnataka
If you do then lets agree to disagree right here.
Two of the former BJP party presidents have been indicted for corruption and I refuse to believe for one second that the corruption ends at the top and does not spread to the rest of the BJP.
I have lived in Mumbai all my life and I have seen first hand the disdain the BJPs parter the Shiv Sena has towards minorities. They target schools run by minorities and according to their definition I am an outsider regardless that I have been born here.
Similarly every year they go around assaulting couples on Valantines day along with good measure of smashing a few shops that dare to sell valantine day memoribilia.
The Congress is in power both in the center and in the state but precious little is done to curb such incidents.
If the BJP and Shiv Sena are voted to power and I have no doubts that they will be more bold to do worse to people who they don't see as 'sons of the soil'.
There are plenty of articles on violence against Christians in India with a lot of fingers pointed towards the BJP and the Sangh. I am just posting a few.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Christian_violence_in_India
http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Weed-out-Christianity,-says-Hindu-BJP-nationalist-leader-19235.html
http://articles.timesofindia.indiat...29387931_1_incidents-teargas-shells-karnataka
I had posted a thread regarding this and the mods very nicely deleted it. Good work mods. *sarcasm implied*
Welcome to the "Great Indian Circus - The 16th Loksabha Elections" - Everyone is gonna party and have a field day -from psephologists, TV-Channels, Newspapers, Tantriks, PR agencies & spin-masters; Fortune-tellers; maha puja's/arti's/offerings at Major temples & other religious places; hoodlums, gangsters; the corporate barons & page 3 celebs; even the whores would make lots of money .... down to the 'aam-admi". And Oh, i almost forgot the "global-media" as civilisation witnesses the largest "democratic" excercise in it's history.
And, this would be my 12th loksabha election - starting from the 5th-1971 (I was just 7 years young and thats as far as my memory goes). Of course I voted in maybe 5-6 of them - after being eligible
. I missed some as I was not in town then. I have seen, experienced & witnessed things going from bad to worse and now - an acceptable level of life to which I have settled.
I shudder to think of the distant future as we in India & the world too will be witnessing even worse things - bouts of recession; effects of global-warming; over-populated cities with dwindling natural resources (Darwin's "survival of the fittest" will take on a new meaning after 2050!!)
I do not wish to sound overtly pessimistic in all this as the past 40 odd years of my life - I have also loved and witnessed various remarkable events [namely in the realm of science & technology] that has made our lives better.
Do I look forward to the 16th loksabha. NO!
Do I want India to continue as a "democracy" - Not sure any more [ the political system that our forefathers created has now morphed into a multi-headed hydra; with 100's of political parties filled with scores of lumpen elements].
How I wish, we could completely overhaul our "political-system" & electioneering processes ...... but that is not going to happen in my lifetime!!
I fear about religion; religious-fundamentalism; casteism & regionalism that has grown so nightmarish - some of the views out here on TE are scary.
So many of us have stopped thinking of ourselves as "Indians" first & last (we are either christian; hindu; muslim; sikh or maharastrian; gujarati; telegu; bengali etc). This is again very, very scary for the future.
In politics (Indian) - things have rarely gotten better, in fact they have only gotten worse. 1000's of crores are going to be spend on these elections (much of it black-tainted money).
My worse nightmare would be a "fractured verdict" - no clear majority, so roll up a rag-tag coalition - beware of the likes of Mayawati etc becoming the PM
..... or a government that will fall-down so fast that we would again have to go through re-elections.
Lastly, would I cast my vote at all - not sure as things are still 10-11 months away.
And would I want NaMo as my PM - Go on get me dead drunk, stoned, schnockered & woozy .... then I'd probably tell you my answer
Ciao
Terry
And, this would be my 12th loksabha election - starting from the 5th-1971 (I was just 7 years young and thats as far as my memory goes). Of course I voted in maybe 5-6 of them - after being eligible
. I missed some as I was not in town then. I have seen, experienced & witnessed things going from bad to worse and now - an acceptable level of life to which I have settled.I shudder to think of the distant future as we in India & the world too will be witnessing even worse things - bouts of recession; effects of global-warming; over-populated cities with dwindling natural resources (Darwin's "survival of the fittest" will take on a new meaning after 2050!!)
I do not wish to sound overtly pessimistic in all this as the past 40 odd years of my life - I have also loved and witnessed various remarkable events [namely in the realm of science & technology] that has made our lives better.
Do I look forward to the 16th loksabha. NO!
Do I want India to continue as a "democracy" - Not sure any more [ the political system that our forefathers created has now morphed into a multi-headed hydra; with 100's of political parties filled with scores of lumpen elements].
How I wish, we could completely overhaul our "political-system" & electioneering processes ...... but that is not going to happen in my lifetime!!
I fear about religion; religious-fundamentalism; casteism & regionalism that has grown so nightmarish - some of the views out here on TE are scary.
So many of us have stopped thinking of ourselves as "Indians" first & last (we are either christian; hindu; muslim; sikh or maharastrian; gujarati; telegu; bengali etc). This is again very, very scary for the future.
In politics (Indian) - things have rarely gotten better, in fact they have only gotten worse. 1000's of crores are going to be spend on these elections (much of it black-tainted money).
My worse nightmare would be a "fractured verdict" - no clear majority, so roll up a rag-tag coalition - beware of the likes of Mayawati etc becoming the PM
..... or a government that will fall-down so fast that we would again have to go through re-elections.Lastly, would I cast my vote at all - not sure as things are still 10-11 months away.
And would I want NaMo as my PM - Go on get me dead drunk, stoned, schnockered & woozy .... then I'd probably tell you my answer
Ciao
Terry
TheIndian
Skilled
And you think India has a patent on this kind of violence? Maybe you should read more about what goes on around the world, FAR WORSE than this happens all the time and not in Africa or some tin pot country, but the so called DEVELOPED COUNTRIES like US, UK, Autralia, Malaysia. The middle east, the less said the better. Some of those links you gave about Christianity, maybe you should have a personal interaction of what really goes on. Many of the things they do in India is illegal in Christian countries.
Did I say Christian countries ? YES - countries call themselves Christian country, Muslim country, Buddhist country, and pride themselves over it, fashion their laws around the main religion, pass laws about protecting their religion. Or all this comes as a shock to you?
But when it comes calling India a Hindu country, people seem to have a problem with it and you dig up little scraps from the Internet without knowing the whole story and present it as fact. Interact with the masses to discover the real truth.
Since you have been around in Mumbai for so long, maybe you have got the opportunity to participate in the rejoining in some of the areas because of Bomb blasts or when India looses against Pakistan in any event.
You worry about petty things like Valentine's day (or New Years), what percentage of India's population is even aware of it? I guarantee you its a very small minority, and only a fraction of it concerned about celebrating it. Now lets get to Diwali, same question, what percentage of India's population is aware of it? Again I guarantee you a very large percentage (I could say ALL) are aware of it, how many celebrate it? A very large percentage, and yet curbs are put on their celebration whereas New Year gets exemption.
Which ever country you are in, anywhere in the world, the primary faith gets priority, and working against it will land you in jail. In India, it seems to be the other way around.
Schools / colleges / Education the very basics, they are in a shambles - WHY ? Why does every college seem to have a politicians name attached, why can't you and I start an educational institution. Think about it. IITs our pride - I have never studied in one, but recently had the chance to visit one and see the environment the students lived and studied, I was HORRIFIED.
The list is endless, think about these Macro things before you start pinching pennies.
I could write more, but that is the not the point, the point is to get people to think and be proud of who they are and their Heritage. No party is perfect and their wrongs can be fixed, but one needs to recognize which is the greater wrong.
TheIndian
Skilled
Why would anyone flame you for this ?
I repeat again -
Marx rightly said, "Religion is the OPIUM" of the masses. Today, we have fallen into the trap set out by the politicians - use religion & regionalism to whip up frenzies.
As young minds, there are so many of you out here on TE - Is this the future you envisage ?
Would you also want your children to follow on the same path ?
Pride about our heritage - @TheIndian
My head has gotten sore after all the banging it's taken
Marx rightly said, "Religion is the OPIUM" of the masses. Today, we have fallen into the trap set out by the politicians - use religion & regionalism to whip up frenzies.
As young minds, there are so many of you out here on TE - Is this the future you envisage ?
Would you also want your children to follow on the same path ?
Pride about our heritage - @TheIndian
My head has gotten sore after all the banging it's taken
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malhotraraul
Skilled
I'd rather go with Nitish Kumar or Subramanium Swamy
No way I am going to vote for NAMO, he got a ready made state on a platter that does not make him a better administrator, I'd rather see congress back in power instead of NAMO.
No way I am going to vote for NAMO, he got a ready made state on a platter that does not make him a better administrator, I'd rather see congress back in power instead of NAMO.
edge111hussain
Adept
Buddy you keep arguing about everything. Simple question is, have you lived through the events that people have mentioned on this thread?
You are arguing when people speak of true incidents that have occurred in their lives, then you argue over printed reports stating that in other countries its a lot worst and why aint we talking about that. Learn to accept others viewpoint, there is a lot to learn from it.
Go back to my first few comments where i told you that it aint no point commenting on a public forum where there will always be people who will not understands the other persons point of view and will stretch it to a point, where nothing meaningful will come out of it.
Again @TheIndian , how old are you? Im asking to understand if you have actually been through these eras that you seem to be defending.
You are arguing when people speak of true incidents that have occurred in their lives, then you argue over printed reports stating that in other countries its a lot worst and why aint we talking about that. Learn to accept others viewpoint, there is a lot to learn from it.
Go back to my first few comments where i told you that it aint no point commenting on a public forum where there will always be people who will not understands the other persons point of view and will stretch it to a point, where nothing meaningful will come out of it.
Again @TheIndian , how old are you? Im asking to understand if you have actually been through these eras that you seem to be defending.
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eternoMind
Skilled
A simple glance at his TE profile would have answered that question for you !
@TheIndian, you need to elaborate more what you mean because that post of yours above sounds like one from a right-wing nut job. No offense meant. You have traced too many issues there to the lack of one nation one law. Speaking of which, isn't the Uniform Civil Code a good example of the same. The one you seem to favor is one that leans more towards safeguarding the rights of the majority faith, with others getting lesser priority. I am just not able to locate the point on this thread when it became a faith pow-vow rather than one of political choice.
Also, what exactly horrified you about IITs and its students?
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Brendon
Skilled
Ok, so from what I understand from your post you condone violence against any community which isn't the majority.
I NEVER EVER said anything about LAWS in India. I merely posted reports of ILLEGAL violence against a minority by people in control of power. If such acts do not surprise you and instead you try and justify them by giving me some vague statements about it happening elsewhere (no proof whatsoever I might add) then I don't know what to say.
You talk down to me in a condescending tone asking me to interact with the masses as though I am some foreigner who has just come to India. I have been born and brought up here just as my father and his father before him so please spare me the bullshit. In my youth I celebrated Diwali and Holi with my Muslim neighbors (no Hindus staying in my shared bungalow) and I have wildly cheered for India during cricket matches so please don't disrespect me by questioning my nationality. I have not in anyway said something personal against you in my statements so I would request you to give me the same respect.
Corruption is one thing. Using state machinery to suppress any one community is entirely different.
#edgehussain - I have actually met TheIndian a long time ago at a TE meet in Bandra. As per his profile status he is 48 years old.
Yes, it is sad when religious orientation is aligned to an ethnicity/origination of a person and/or group. How, many say that Muslims should go to Pakistan or pass by the borders. India is trying to be a secular state but still has religiosity entwined deeply in it's functions. I think it is safe that India does not declare a state religion, it might just make matters worse. With politicians ready to use this as a card and incite the masses. Incidentally there are not many nations which declare Christianity as a state religion too. Guess the break-up would be: RC/Eastern Orthodox/Lutheran and Anglican (Britain); so many countries are moving to the irreligious model or what the Nordic block of states are doing.
edge111hussain
Adept
considering his age, his views seem quiet shocking. He is obvious someone who would have gone through everything, right from the 70's and now i am even more surprised at his views. If u look at one of my previous posts, i asked him if he is in his teens and now that i know he is 48, clearly he has issues when it comes to people who dont belong to his same caste and religion.
@TheIndian i think v would only run around in circles if i further communicate with you. You clearly are a man with an agenda, not one that i stand by even for a sec. Try to have an open mind, more than anything else, a open rational thought process is what our country needs the most at this hour...
@TheIndian i think v would only run around in circles if i further communicate with you. You clearly are a man with an agenda, not one that i stand by even for a sec. Try to have an open mind, more than anything else, a open rational thought process is what our country needs the most at this hour...
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TheIndian
Skilled
If religion is the opium of the masses, then its about time its used judiciously rather than used to divide the country. Question is which side has set the trap? The "reservation" for minorities - is that the trap you are referring to? What would you like to see? A different law for every religion, caste, sub caste , as it is at present or one common law for all?I repeat again -
Marx rightly said, "Religion is the OPIUM" of the masses. Today, we have fallen into the trap set out by the politicians - use religion & regionalism to whip up frenzies.
As young minds, there are so many of you out here on TE - Is this the future you envisage ?
Would you also want your children to follow on the same path ?
Pride about our heritage - @TheIndian
My head has gotten sore after all the banging it's taken
Wars lasting centuries have been fought through the ages over religion. Armies marched 1000's of miles in the name of religious war, and are still doing it, and this is not about to stop anytime soon, no matter how much you bang your head on a wall. In fact India is probably the only country which did not indulge in any war over religion with a view to proclaim ONE GOD.
What future is it that you seem to have a problem with? I certainly have no problem with one common law for all. Which part do you find objectionable?
In an earlier post you mention you need the help of the bottle to give you strength to speak your mind. I am glad there is a growing number who do not need stimulants to speak what is on their mind or what they are proud of. I hope and wish soon you may also not need any assistance to speak up for what you feel in plain words so that the young minds on this forum may understand it without need to second guess.
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sharktale1212
Skilled
Sad part is we are democracy.
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to eat for lunch.
Still people should look at @Darthcoder post again.
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to eat for lunch.
Still people should look at @Darthcoder post again.
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TheIndian
Skilled
Do I have to live through history to talk / discuss / argue about it (which I have)? If that is the case no one has the right to talk about anything until they were at least 5 years old.
As for question about my age, I deliberately did not answer the question as answering it would be the equivalent of telling everyone who was not there or not actually witnessed it to shut up and stay out of it. I am of the belief that being older does not make one wiser, and had wished to avoid age factor on a forum where quite a few are fairly young have often run into the wall of "I am older than you, shut up" at some point in their lives. As @eternoMind pointed out, my age was easy enough to look up if anyone really desired so.
I have plenty of true incidents to speak of too for and against both, but what is more important, personal incidents with me or the generic behavior all around? I believe in the overall incidents all around. My not actually witnessing an event them does not make them false, we all have a mind which we can apply together with our own experiences and come to our own independent conclusions, whether to believe or not to believe.
As you mentioned there will be people who will always disagree and which is specifically why I stopped responding to your posts.
Thank you for answering the question about my age.
About IIT (and its not just about IIT, a few other top educational colleges are included) I was horrified FOR the students about the appalling conditions they are residing in. 8-10 hours a day no power, mosquitoes galore, no hot water in the midst of winter in North India, no Internet, horrendous food, stuffy class rooms, the list is endless, essentially the total lack of infrastructure. If this is case in our top 10-20 institutes what is it like in the rest of them? And yet our HONOURABLE education minister Mr Sibal was furious (to the point of foaming at the mouth) when a student disputed his claim that our educational institutes were world class and second to none.
Since I have become passionate about this subject (it was not always so) I have often come across terms like secularism, right wing ( I assume there must be a left wing too) and yet no one has been able to define what exactly they mean. I have got really vague answers and hope it will be different here someone could lay out a proper definition before we start using these terms, perhaps @terence_fdes ( though it may appear other wise, I really enjoy his posts as being well thought out and informative)
You mentioned the Uniform Civil Code, is it really uniform ? Then how come no other religion gets the equivalent of "Haj subsidy" or why are some people allowed to marry 4 times and others are not? BTW a Muslim can't marry even two times (even though the law allows 4 times) in a Muslim country like Malaysia without the courts permission, let alone 4 times. Do I really need to go on about the uniformity of the law in India ? Or aren't the differences glaring enough? Every country has one code for a reason, why don't we? I do believe all our problems stem from lack of this, perhaps you could make me see from another POV, I am open to it.
How about reservations in jobs and education? Previously it was restricted to backward classes, and was to be for a period of about 25 years max, its what now? 50 with no signs of abating, only increasing. Where would you (or anyone) like to see this in the future? 95% reservation for various categories and religions or equality for all?
This does not mean I am not for helping the backward and downtrodden but giving is not helping. Where is the logic in a 95%er not getting admission and a 35% waltzing in? Perhaps help could be given by way of marks handicap, say 2/3 of 95 is the same as 95 for the down trodden. Which means the downtrodden would have to get about 62% at least if that was too much, it could be reduced and made to 1/2. But reserving on religious grounds? for "Minorities"? There are REAL minorities in India which form less than 1% or even 0.5% of the population, you do not see any special treatment being doled out to them (and IMHO they are really deserving), why ? BECAUSE THEY ARE POLITICALLY INSIGNIFICANT.
@Brendon I would quickly like to say I CONDONE NO VIOLENCE but nor do I advocate turning the other cheek. More later.
It does seem to me that you have a serious age phobia, What age did you think I would be ? younger than you, implying you know more than me and therefore you are right? Too bad it didn't play out that way. Just cause someone is older than me, does not make them automatically right, similarly someone who is younger than me, does not make them automatically wrong either.
What does my age have anything to do with my beliefs, which of them shocks you specifically? That I believe in one nation one law, is that what is shocking?
FYI: With reference to your comment about having religious problems I am an atheist by choice and a Hindu by birth, but I DO NOT believe in caste or Religious discrimination and will fight tooth and nail against it. But perhaps you do as you are so focused on it.
I always refrain from making any personal attacks but since you have initiated it, and I am not one to turn the other cheek. Let me repeat some of the questions you have left unanswered.
1) why did the rioting in Gujarat Start? Any answer for it ?
2) What happened in the aftermath? Is it more peaceful than it has been in decades?( I too have Muslim friends there so I do know the ground reality) .
3) What do you feel about the various terrorism acts in the country which have been mostly promoted by Pakistan (yes Pakistan and not neighboring country) and still continue to do so.
4) Do you stand for one united nation one law and equality or a disjointed (vote bank) nation with many laws and reservations ? Please spell it out for us.
You accused me of pinching pennies about my age, which was there for you to see if you made even the slightest of effort, and yet chose to remain silent on matters of far more importance.
And finally YES I have an agenda, and its very transparent. In case you missed it - One nation one law, equality for all, preferential treatment only for the economically and socially down trodden, and for the REAL MINORITIES. - If any part of it is objectionable or biased please say so, I would be happy to alter my outlook.
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Paradoxical statements. And so many of them. Each of them can be refuted/torn apart & thrown aside. What is left then ?
Rigidity, stubbornness & a false sense of pride and arrogance about ones belief's and one-nationhood - "See I did not sell my conscience or my soul"
"I did what I had to do" - because I thought it was Right (& the rest be dammed...... warped thinking, ideas, morals, ethics).
THE BASICS:
The most difficult thing in life is to learn & understand how to recognize the Truths and what is Right? Since ancient times humanity has struggled to understand & practice these fundamental values of our existence.
If we firmly believe in, "Every action (commands and) has an equal & opposite reaction" - then our world & lives are doomed to sadness and destruction. Unfortunately, it does not end with just our own lives languishing (and it's even worse for the ones who never realise it) - but we end up screwing up many other lives too.
There are so many, many leaders (politicians) who firmly believe in the above & fiercely defend it as their fundamental right (America too does the same) to defend their turf. They are the ones who throw aside decisions of that last bastion of justice that is left to us - the "Courts & Jurisprudence". We their followers and especially those who elected them will follow the same path too - because this is what we think is our fundamental right!!!
Age has nothing to do with wisdom. And yet at the same time with age & experience comes wisdom. However if we have got our basics all wrong, then even a 90 year old person is a kid who never learnt how to recognise the "Right from the wrong", and THIS IS THE MOST FEARFUL PART - Of having lived a life (unknowingly or knowingly) without knowing the truths.
A 6 year old street-kid has more knowledge of life & it's harsh realities than anyone else.
Rigidity, stubbornness & a false sense of pride and arrogance about ones belief's and one-nationhood - "See I did not sell my conscience or my soul"
"I did what I had to do" - because I thought it was Right (& the rest be dammed...... warped thinking, ideas, morals, ethics).
THE BASICS:
The most difficult thing in life is to learn & understand how to recognize the Truths and what is Right? Since ancient times humanity has struggled to understand & practice these fundamental values of our existence.
If we firmly believe in, "Every action (commands and) has an equal & opposite reaction" - then our world & lives are doomed to sadness and destruction. Unfortunately, it does not end with just our own lives languishing (and it's even worse for the ones who never realise it) - but we end up screwing up many other lives too.
There are so many, many leaders (politicians) who firmly believe in the above & fiercely defend it as their fundamental right (America too does the same) to defend their turf. They are the ones who throw aside decisions of that last bastion of justice that is left to us - the "Courts & Jurisprudence". We their followers and especially those who elected them will follow the same path too - because this is what we think is our fundamental right!!!
Age has nothing to do with wisdom. And yet at the same time with age & experience comes wisdom. However if we have got our basics all wrong, then even a 90 year old person is a kid who never learnt how to recognise the "Right from the wrong", and THIS IS THE MOST FEARFUL PART - Of having lived a life (unknowingly or knowingly) without knowing the truths.
A 6 year old street-kid has more knowledge of life & it's harsh realities than anyone else.
Religion isn't the opium of the masses. It's the placebo of the masses. So says Dr. House and I agree with him.
- Status