Anna Hazare's fast against corruption
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Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.
@Lord Nemesis
Democracy is just another man-made form of governance bound to the flaws of errors and deviance. Surprisingly, you lay all the weight in the world behind it.
The democracy as it exists today in india deserves to be discarded into a dustbin. If you still have the logic to reconcile indian democracy with the one which exists in the west then I'm going to gleefully laugh at your paradoxical justification.
@Lord Nemesis
Democracy is just another man-made form of governance bound to the flaws of errors and deviance. Surprisingly, you lay all the weight in the world behind it.
The democracy as it exists today in india deserves to be discarded into a dustbin. If you still have the logic to reconcile indian democracy with the one which exists in the west then I'm going to gleefully laugh at your paradoxical justification.
chiron
Innovator
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.
The idea of Jan Lokpal has always been pragmatic which is why they were able to run with the flout the rules to make the rules better idea but all that has gone for a toss the moment govt gleefully agreed the a-team's demand to include lower level employees. When the movement started I was fine with Hazare(though never in favor of him as a person) coz corruption was and is a big issue in our country but the way things have turned out I can't wait to be rid of that sanctimonious prick and his cronies
The idea of Jan Lokpal has always been pragmatic which is why they were able to run with the flout the rules to make the rules better idea but all that has gone for a toss the moment govt gleefully agreed the a-team's demand to include lower level employees. When the movement started I was fine with Hazare(though never in favor of him as a person) coz corruption was and is a big issue in our country but the way things have turned out I can't wait to be rid of that sanctimonious prick and his cronies
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.
Democracy, national victory, anti corruption are mere masks over the 12 day media sponsored event that was taking place. Damn, even business channels had nothing better to show. Nothing has really changed, so I am not sure what the 'victory' seekers are celebrating about.
Democracy, national victory, anti corruption are mere masks over the 12 day media sponsored event that was taking place. Damn, even business channels had nothing better to show. Nothing has really changed, so I am not sure what the 'victory' seekers are celebrating about.
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.
If someone pays a bribe to get the officer to do something wrong or grant them a favor then yes they should also be penalized.
However much of the day to day corruption is to get people to do their jobs. This need not be penalized but will disappear on its own accord once people see some changes.
mib2_007 said:
If someone pays a bribe to get the officer to do something wrong or grant them a favor then yes they should also be penalized.
However much of the day to day corruption is to get people to do their jobs. This need not be penalized but will disappear on its own accord once people see some changes.
Shripad
Innovator
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.
When you question someone else's intention, let me question yours.
Why are you specifically against this man? Why are you posting this. What is your connection to all this. This does not affect you directly then why are you taking up a position against him or any anti-corruption campaign. Mainly why are you against one man when you dont have any relation with him directly.
Its easy to question someone, why? because you dont have to justify yourself when you question someone's intentions or agenda.
As far as this movement is concerned, it was wayyy larger than 0.000001%. Why do you think government caved in? Why do you think this got uniform support from almost all social sectors? Why did they not want this to go on? Why did they budge in the end? Why didnt they let him break his fast himself and take the risk of him falling seriously ill or die? Why did they wait so long if they knew they had to bend in the end? They have let many others die fasting before, so why not him?
See its easy to ask questions. Very easy.
The man does not matter, the 1 thing that matters is that it has been proved once again that when something/someone is fundamentally correct its very difficult to kill or ignore.
And coming to the man, he has been doing this for the betterment of of society for long time. He has never gained anything personally. Its our mentality to seek what he gained personally from all this. Mind soo used to seeing everyone doing something for only personal gain sometimes cannot grasp the concept of a true social cause.
What did he gain from RTI? Nothing personally. Or do you think even RTI shouldnt have happened and we were better off?
Take it easy. Its not like he is running after you with gun to your head
Government themselves are responsible for this. Its their actions that created the environment for this movement or spectacle (as its in your mind from you posts )
Crazy_Eddy said:Nation relieved, celebrates Anna's victory- TIMESNOW.tv - Latest Breaking News, Big News Stories, News Videos
Why the media/sheeple love Anna Hazare - he's a true showman!
Check this out :
Why would someone fighting against corruption, stoop low and play the caste/religion card? Especially when he himself knows he's not secular.
As always, his timing is impeccable. He could've ended his fast last night. Nothing new happened today morning AFAIK, so what was he waiting for? Better crowds in the morning perhaps? And frankly someone fasting this long would've gulped down his refreshment, not been posing for the cameras.
I'm sorry, did he say people of India and democracy? Where? In his tiny floating kingdom? Does he think 0.0001% of the Indian population sitting at his ground is a democracy?
If he's that keen on representing democracy, let him stand for elections and have his derrière handed back to him. Oh wait, next on his agenda is modifying the election system
And this dear government created this themselves. They are themselves to blame for creating an environment for this movement or spectacle (as it seems to be in your eyes).
And before I get the standard - "oh atleast he's doing something" - please don't. Everyone's too lazy to take responsibility themselves and are passing the buck once again
He's smart and capitalising on your laziness to build his brand. Yes lets go wave a couple of flags and support Anna Hazare instead of running around to avoid paying that bribe.
Throughout this anti corruption episode, I've only wondered what Anna's end game is. What is his reason for taking up this challenge?
I acknowledge and respect the change he's brought to Ralegan Siddhi.. but that was his native village, something he had a connection with. So why the corruption thing suddenly? Did he get bored of villages? Did he have to pay a bribe? What was it that catapulted him to the cause?
When you question someone else's intention, let me question yours.
Why are you specifically against this man? Why are you posting this. What is your connection to all this. This does not affect you directly then why are you taking up a position against him or any anti-corruption campaign. Mainly why are you against one man when you dont have any relation with him directly.
Its easy to question someone, why? because you dont have to justify yourself when you question someone's intentions or agenda.
As far as this movement is concerned, it was wayyy larger than 0.000001%. Why do you think government caved in? Why do you think this got uniform support from almost all social sectors? Why did they not want this to go on? Why did they budge in the end? Why didnt they let him break his fast himself and take the risk of him falling seriously ill or die? Why did they wait so long if they knew they had to bend in the end? They have let many others die fasting before, so why not him?
See its easy to ask questions. Very easy.
The man does not matter, the 1 thing that matters is that it has been proved once again that when something/someone is fundamentally correct its very difficult to kill or ignore.
And coming to the man, he has been doing this for the betterment of of society for long time. He has never gained anything personally. Its our mentality to seek what he gained personally from all this. Mind soo used to seeing everyone doing something for only personal gain sometimes cannot grasp the concept of a true social cause.
What did he gain from RTI? Nothing personally. Or do you think even RTI shouldnt have happened and we were better off?
Take it easy. Its not like he is running after you with gun to your head
Government themselves are responsible for this. Its their actions that created the environment for this movement or spectacle (as its in your mind from you posts
)Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.
see govt. works on the public sentiments, govt. is made on foolish hindu-muslim playing cards coz emotional sentiments works here. If Anna dies on fast riding on public sentiments, congress or any other party can easily forget to come to power for next 20 yrs.
Govt. caved in coz media and all was soo fascinated by him and played him like gandhi that they had to budge.
You or me can go, fast and die. No one will care coz we are not riding on public sentiments. Its politics, and time and again if not Hazare... his team members have shown political games playing in Arena.
Its in human nature for wanting to be popular, good causes just make us angels, Mother Teresa, Nelson Mandela all admitted that though they wanted to reach their objectives, freedom and publics's welfar... what kept them motivated and keep going is the very thought that they are writing history, becoming popular and being loved by millions.
They may sound humble, but the very thought that motivated them is the insatiable greed and hunger to be popular.
Its not bad... its all good to have that hunger, but to portray someone as 'messiah' is no justification.
And no one is against anna if he had done the protests and keep doing his work, but 'pass this bill by 30th or I die' is what pissed of people. Its a disregard for the constitution, the very constitution we are proud of, that makes us Indian, that we have fought for so badly to frame and be secular... independent and with all the rights.
Nobody is questioning the good laws this will bring in our society, nor his intentions.. but when it tries to get politically motivated, it gets dangerous.
see govt. works on the public sentiments, govt. is made on foolish hindu-muslim playing cards coz emotional sentiments works here. If Anna dies on fast riding on public sentiments, congress or any other party can easily forget to come to power for next 20 yrs.
Govt. caved in coz media and all was soo fascinated by him and played him like gandhi that they had to budge.
You or me can go, fast and die. No one will care coz we are not riding on public sentiments. Its politics, and time and again if not Hazare... his team members have shown political games playing in Arena.
Its in human nature for wanting to be popular, good causes just make us angels, Mother Teresa, Nelson Mandela all admitted that though they wanted to reach their objectives, freedom and publics's welfar... what kept them motivated and keep going is the very thought that they are writing history, becoming popular and being loved by millions.
They may sound humble, but the very thought that motivated them is the insatiable greed and hunger to be popular.
Its not bad... its all good to have that hunger, but to portray someone as 'messiah' is no justification.
And no one is against anna if he had done the protests and keep doing his work, but 'pass this bill by 30th or I die' is what pissed of people. Its a disregard for the constitution, the very constitution we are proud of, that makes us Indian, that we have fought for so badly to frame and be secular... independent and with all the rights.
Nobody is questioning the good laws this will bring in our society, nor his intentions.. but when it tries to get politically motivated, it gets dangerous.
chiron
Innovator
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.
I am taking a position against the movement because of its fascist nature. And if you have any illusion about the a-team being any different from any of the political parties then listen to Kiran Bedi's sloganeering. Coz after all its emotion and intolerance that always moves people rather than logic and empathy. Thats why members of the "civil society" can continue indulging in corruption as in mib2_007's example all the while being outraged at the govt for being corrupt. The difference between Gandhi and Hazare is simply vision... he has to be credited with getting the nation's interest in this issue but taking his advice on resolving it is turning out to be a terrible idea.
I guess the one thing we all agree on is that the govt is responsible for this mess, first because of all the scams that provided the fuel and then being spineless enough to not take a stance and not having the self-respect of being the elected representatives of the people. The govt caved in coz it always plays votebank politics with the minorities and in this case its the disillusioned middle class they are bending over to.
I am taking a position against the movement because of its fascist nature. And if you have any illusion about the a-team being any different from any of the political parties then listen to Kiran Bedi's sloganeering. Coz after all its emotion and intolerance that always moves people rather than logic and empathy. Thats why members of the "civil society" can continue indulging in corruption as in mib2_007's example all the while being outraged at the govt for being corrupt. The difference between Gandhi and Hazare is simply vision... he has to be credited with getting the nation's interest in this issue but taking his advice on resolving it is turning out to be a terrible idea.
I guess the one thing we all agree on is that the govt is responsible for this mess, first because of all the scams that provided the fuel and then being spineless enough to not take a stance and not having the self-respect of being the elected representatives of the people. The govt caved in coz it always plays votebank politics with the minorities and in this case its the disillusioned middle class they are bending over to.
Shripad
Innovator
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.
All people you mentioned in the post have achieved something significant for their nation.
I really doubt whether you are me as well are even qualified to question the motives of likes of Mother Teresa. And Mandela achieved great things for his nation, but his actions and beliefs, his call for certain actions by people did cause significant loss of life through social / ethnic violence in SA. Nobody is perfect.
They are are regarded highly because they achieved something for the betterment of their society, country and world.
And when the fear of possible public reaction and its consequences in next election makes government do something, you need to understand how grand the effect of all this is and could be. When you think government had to act because they are afraid of coming into power again, it shows exactly why this was successful.
When people has to fear the government, there is something fundamentally wrong with that country. When its other way around, its a better sign of things to come.
And it was never "pass this till 30th or die" It was pass it till 30th or be ready for stronger agitation. None of this disregarded the constitution. It actually utilised the constitutional rights given to the people to actually achieve something. Or should I say use it to head towards right direction. Nothing is achieved yet. It is yet to be done, but first step is taken. Its entirely upto the parliament to actually do something that they have promised yesterday.
In my book there has been no real massiah in the human history ever. It is simply not possible if you go by the actual concept of massiah. Unless you have a system or a large group of people who act for the benefit of society, its always difficult for one man to do anything.
They reason Hazare was successful is because of the support he got. And he had no support of the large masses, he wouldnt have been effective. Even Ramdev has a cult following and received tremendous media attention. Why do you think the media attention quickly wavered away from him? And same did not happen this time around? Why? because this time it had larger support form everyone. Not just media. There were channels and reporters who were actually specialising in the new ways to slam him and his movement on TV
So just media frenzy alone was not responsible. It always had. Even in our independence struggle, media played a big role. Why do you think Lokmanya Tilak and many other risked their life daily to print underground newspapers and spreading their messages through few legit news papers back in a day? Media always plays a role.
Coming to something you posted earlier. The law already has provision to punish someone if he offers bribe to demand +ve result in his favour. An honest employee can report such person and that person can be arrested. Its still the duty of the government employee to refuse such bribe. Why? because they are sitting in a position of making sure they do their job honestly. They are in a position of authority. And so its their duty to not accept bribe even if its offered.
If bribe is asked and then given, then only the government employee will suffer because of the same reason. He abused his position of authority, the onus is on him to maintain the integrity of his position. If thats too much to ask, he has no business being a public servant.
If you think this is fascism, you really need to read up on it m8.
As far as Kiran bedi is concerned, she made a fool out of herself and got slammed by same media that was supporting Hazare before and after the incidents. It made little difference to the movement. A lot of mudslinging happened on the so called "A team" but not much stuck because the core idea and the main person who was backbone of the movement was squeaky clean.
And the bold part, that thinking is actually leaning towards fascism. That class is the major contributor to this country and forms the large portion of highly skilled, moderately skilled labour and is major financial and social contributor to this country.
If government bent over for them, I am glad as it proves we are not a fascist / dictatorial state.
mib2_007 said:
All people you mentioned in the post have achieved something significant for their nation.
I really doubt whether you are me as well are even qualified to question the motives of likes of Mother Teresa. And Mandela achieved great things for his nation, but his actions and beliefs, his call for certain actions by people did cause significant loss of life through social / ethnic violence in SA. Nobody is perfect.
They are are regarded highly because they achieved something for the betterment of their society, country and world.
And when the fear of possible public reaction and its consequences in next election makes government do something, you need to understand how grand the effect of all this is and could be. When you think government had to act because they are afraid of coming into power again, it shows exactly why this was successful.
When people has to fear the government, there is something fundamentally wrong with that country. When its other way around, its a better sign of things to come.
And it was never "pass this till 30th or die" It was pass it till 30th or be ready for stronger agitation. None of this disregarded the constitution. It actually utilised the constitutional rights given to the people to actually achieve something. Or should I say use it to head towards right direction. Nothing is achieved yet. It is yet to be done, but first step is taken. Its entirely upto the parliament to actually do something that they have promised yesterday.
In my book there has been no real massiah in the human history ever. It is simply not possible if you go by the actual concept of massiah. Unless you have a system or a large group of people who act for the benefit of society, its always difficult for one man to do anything.
They reason Hazare was successful is because of the support he got. And he had no support of the large masses, he wouldnt have been effective. Even Ramdev has a cult following and received tremendous media attention. Why do you think the media attention quickly wavered away from him? And same did not happen this time around? Why? because this time it had larger support form everyone. Not just media. There were channels and reporters who were actually specialising in the new ways to slam him and his movement on TV
So just media frenzy alone was not responsible. It always had. Even in our independence struggle, media played a big role. Why do you think Lokmanya Tilak and many other risked their life daily to print underground newspapers and spreading their messages through few legit news papers back in a day? Media always plays a role.
Coming to something you posted earlier. The law already has provision to punish someone if he offers bribe to demand +ve result in his favour. An honest employee can report such person and that person can be arrested. Its still the duty of the government employee to refuse such bribe. Why? because they are sitting in a position of making sure they do their job honestly. They are in a position of authority. And so its their duty to not accept bribe even if its offered.
If bribe is asked and then given, then only the government employee will suffer because of the same reason. He abused his position of authority, the onus is on him to maintain the integrity of his position. If thats too much to ask, he has no business being a public servant.
chiron said:
If you think this is fascism, you really need to read up on it m8.
As far as Kiran bedi is concerned, she made a fool out of herself and got slammed by same media that was supporting Hazare before and after the incidents. It made little difference to the movement. A lot of mudslinging happened on the so called "A team" but not much stuck because the core idea and the main person who was backbone of the movement was squeaky clean.
And the bold part, that thinking is actually leaning towards fascism. That class is the major contributor to this country and forms the large portion of highly skilled, moderately skilled labour and is major financial and social contributor to this country.
If government bent over for them, I am glad as it proves we are not a fascist / dictatorial state.
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.
exactly, thats what I am saying Sripad. Everyone had achieved something. Kapil Sibbal, Manmohan Singh, Pranab, Chidambram or for that matter anyone in higher ranks might be corrupt, but they have achived something, done something, proved their mettle from time to time.
I know they are reluctant, maybe corrupt, maybe the worst, but still are more knowledgeable than few of us, a proper discussion and public opinion is much needed.
Anna brought the corruption problem in forefront, but shall in noway be used to dictate terms to govt.
I don't like PM's unconditional inclusion to Lokpal, there may be others like me, who will represent us? Shall we too make some fast unto death so that the bill is not passed? Or shall we trust out elected representatives who were very well people like you and me earlier, to make those decisions.
We can guide our parliament to a particular direction, but shall in no way dictate the terms. I hold that belief and am willing to protect it.
As for Mother Teresa, nobody questioned her or her contributions. She is WAY BEYOND anyone of us can ever do, BUT all I said was, she was motivated by the very basic human needs too. Its in our genes. If Anna does it, it no problem, but too much for clinging to popularity is what many of us fear he is doing now. Trying to break in into political barriers.
exactly, thats what I am saying Sripad. Everyone had achieved something. Kapil Sibbal, Manmohan Singh, Pranab, Chidambram or for that matter anyone in higher ranks might be corrupt, but they have achived something, done something, proved their mettle from time to time.
I know they are reluctant, maybe corrupt, maybe the worst, but still are more knowledgeable than few of us, a proper discussion and public opinion is much needed.
Anna brought the corruption problem in forefront, but shall in noway be used to dictate terms to govt.
I don't like PM's unconditional inclusion to Lokpal, there may be others like me, who will represent us? Shall we too make some fast unto death so that the bill is not passed? Or shall we trust out elected representatives who were very well people like you and me earlier, to make those decisions.
We can guide our parliament to a particular direction, but shall in no way dictate the terms. I hold that belief and am willing to protect it.
As for Mother Teresa, nobody questioned her or her contributions. She is WAY BEYOND anyone of us can ever do, BUT all I said was, she was motivated by the very basic human needs too. Its in our genes. If Anna does it, it no problem, but too much for clinging to popularity is what many of us fear he is doing now. Trying to break in into political barriers.
chiron
Innovator
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.
I can make out a few parallels and those are enough to make worry me coz I've read a bit of history. As broadway mentioned "Democracy is just another man-made form of governance bound to the flaws of errors and deviance". It follows that a truly visionary, empathic and benovolent dictator could be considered better than a democracy but that has never worked in the past as that role is beyond the capacity of any human. So we are stuck with the flawed system of democracy as our best choice. And when democracy bows down to any person no matter how much integrity and sincerity that person has its never something to rejoice about.
Initially when all this debate started(with nehal's hazare threads etc) I was willing to ignore the fact that the movement was based on a person and the undemocratic manner in which the civil society members appointed themselves into the joint drafting commitee. Coz after all someone had to address the issue. But now I realize that when the intent is to improve the workings of democracy and establish ideals it was a wrong to ignore the basis of it just for practicality. If you think about it that way then bottom line is Anna Hazare is not squeaky clean because he has broken the rules of the country(notwithstanding his intentions which may have been truly pure).
Shripad said:
I can make out a few parallels and those are enough to make worry me coz I've read a bit of history. As broadway mentioned "Democracy is just another man-made form of governance bound to the flaws of errors and deviance". It follows that a truly visionary, empathic and benovolent dictator could be considered better than a democracy but that has never worked in the past as that role is beyond the capacity of any human. So we are stuck with the flawed system of democracy as our best choice. And when democracy bows down to any person no matter how much integrity and sincerity that person has its never something to rejoice about.
Initially when all this debate started(with nehal's hazare threads etc) I was willing to ignore the fact that the movement was based on a person and the undemocratic manner in which the civil society members appointed themselves into the joint drafting commitee. Coz after all someone had to address the issue. But now I realize that when the intent is to improve the workings of democracy and establish ideals it was a wrong to ignore the basis of it just for practicality. If you think about it that way then bottom line is Anna Hazare is not squeaky clean because he has broken the rules of the country(notwithstanding his intentions which may have been truly pure).
Shripad
Innovator
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.
And I respect that. I still think that this congress government made fool out of a person like Manmohan Singh. If there is someone in this government I believe from the core of my heart is clean and honest within himself, its him. I am actually sorry that he had to become a PM under current conditions.
As far as Hazare breaking a political barriers, lets watch and see what happens. He could have done it in 90s and early 2000s, he didnt. I have seen nothing yet to say he has chanced since then.
You again zero in on the person.
The democracy didnt bow down to a person this time around. It bowed down to the wishes of the same people that formed it.
If you want am example of democracy bowing down to the person, then 1999 hijack is example of that. And even then I dont think what was done was wrong. We have paid heavy price of that till now, but at that time, saving lives of those 192 people took precedent over sticking to our laws and constitution and its legal system. They let 3 militants jailed by our judiciary system go to save lives of those people back then.
This time its our own people who revolted against something that was fundamentally wrong. They might have questioned the same government that they elected, but thats the beauty of democracy. If you cant or dont want to understand that, fine. You have the right to your views.
mib2_007 said:
And I respect that. I still think that this congress government made fool out of a person like Manmohan Singh. If there is someone in this government I believe from the core of my heart is clean and honest within himself, its him. I am actually sorry that he had to become a PM under current conditions.
As far as Hazare breaking a political barriers, lets watch and see what happens. He could have done it in 90s and early 2000s, he didnt. I have seen nothing yet to say he has chanced since then.
chiron said:
You again zero in on the person.
The democracy didnt bow down to a person this time around. It bowed down to the wishes of the same people that formed it.
If you want am example of democracy bowing down to the person, then 1999 hijack is example of that. And even then I dont think what was done was wrong. We have paid heavy price of that till now, but at that time, saving lives of those 192 people took precedent over sticking to our laws and constitution and its legal system. They let 3 militants jailed by our judiciary system go to save lives of those people back then.
This time its our own people who revolted against something that was fundamentally wrong. They might have questioned the same government that they elected, but thats the beauty of democracy. If you cant or dont want to understand that, fine. You have the right to your views.
chiron
Innovator
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.
^^ I agree
imo A.K Antony is another such person; he is relatively clean plus is a far better leader/politician and has convictions beyond just "do no evil and follow instruction" like MMS. In fact I'd bet he'd have handled this situation far better if he were PM than MMS.
^^ I agree
Shripad said:
imo A.K Antony is another such person; he is relatively clean plus is a far better leader/politician and has convictions beyond just "do no evil and follow instruction" like MMS. In fact I'd bet he'd have handled this situation far better if he were PM than MMS.
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.
I wonder what would happen if a third country propped up the naxals. So far they're holding up with obsolete WWI era riles. All they need to do is supply them some heavy power merchandise and they'll tear new delhi apart. That's REAL power. Not some glorified punjabi or rajput regiments.
I wonder what would happen if a third country propped up the naxals. So far they're holding up with obsolete WWI era riles. All they need to do is supply them some heavy power merchandise and they'll tear new delhi apart. That's REAL power. Not some glorified punjabi or rajput regiments.
Re: Anna Hazare arrested by Delhi police ahead of today's fast.
its fail untill people stop giving bribe. anna will be a sucess the day a dad will say i will no bribe school for my kids admission and walk out with admission of kids because he dont want to pay bribe. i know it does not look logical or practical but its a reality
its fail untill people stop giving bribe. anna will be a sucess the day a dad will say i will no bribe school for my kids admission and walk out with admission of kids because he dont want to pay bribe. i know it does not look logical or practical but its a reality
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